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And Luke does directly inherit his father’s power, but in the end that has almost nothing to do with how he defeats the Sith.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:11
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Weird how BotL always posts similar things to SMG except way dumber and less fun to read Wish they’d stop posting 
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Jul 1, 2018 22:12
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The grudge is strong in this oneJeb! Repetition posted:It kind of does make it more democratic or liberal in that she's not aristocracy Her goal is to restore theocracy and aristocracy.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:30
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To be very clear, the problem with a 'chosen one' narrative is not the origin of the chosen one, but the basic premise of a hero selected by God - who acts with God's authority. Rey is obviously perceived as acting with God's authority, so there is absolutely no subversion. That narrative was actually subverted by George Lucas, when Quigon's adherence to a self-fulfilling prophecy leads him to take the most powerful mutant he can find and train him specifically to be 'a chosen one'. Anakin was not chosen by God, but by Quigon. This is compounded by the fact that, as a 'virgin birth', Anakin is not a servant of God but directly is God - the wrathful and capricious God of the Old Testament. So, where the Jedi believe that a perfect beneficent God has a plan for them, the actual God is standing there before them as someone all too human. When human Anakin is burnt alive and the inhuman residue is rebuilt into Vader, the chosen one narrative is again subverted. The figure from the prophecy finally exists - but he is not on the side of the Jedi. Now we have this terrifying, diabolical Christ who appears as the ultimate threat to their pagan religion. This was also already subverted in A New Hope, where Obiwan was characterized as a charlatan telling Luke what he wanted to hear. So, really, the ST is subverting Star Wars by making a straightforwardly stupid 'chosen one' narrative without any commentary. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jul 1, 2018 |
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Jul 1, 2018 23:37
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SMG I would find your 'Darth Vader is an inhuman avatar of Justice' take far easier to swallow if there were like one scene in the franchise where he he was depicted giving a poo poo about injustice or being anything other than a fascist enforcer
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Jul 1, 2018 23:50
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Zoran posted:And Luke does directly inherit his father’s power, but in the end that has almost nothing to do with how he defeats the Sith. Luke doesn't defeat the Sith. Anakin does. I actually watched TLJ for the first time today and loved it. I am a very casual SW fan. I'm more of a Trek dude myself. My favorite SW movie is Empire, and my least favorite is Phantom Menace, to establish my barometer here. When The Force Awakens came out a few years back, I liked it, but I walked out of the theater thinking "What was the point of the original trilogy? They are still fighting the same loving war they were there. It's still the Empire vs. the Rebels, despite the names. Nothing changed." TLJ addresses this poo poo head on. It is a film about breaking the cycles that are destructive. Everything a character does that resembles the old heroes' actions is met with failure. These are characters that grew up with the legends of Leia and Han and Luke filling their heads and hearts. And yet, emulating their actions lead to disaster. Ironically, the two last living heroes of the previous era, Luke and Leia, both realize this. However, their efforts to pass that on to their proteges are mostly met with failure. It's Kylo Ren who is closest to the truth, that it all needs to be swept away to break out of that cycle. However, he still clings to the empire equivalent (what was it, First Order?) Oddly the movie's message reminds me of an old Trek adage: One man cannot summon the future. The entire movie demonstrates that it takes a collective effort to win, and the prior heroic victories of the Rebels were all a fluke, perpetrated by a farmboy in over his head. At the end of the day, I think the megafans hate the idea that the characters they loved are flawed, and so are their methods. As a casual fan, I thought it was a tremendous flm.
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Jul 1, 2018 23:51
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How the hell is TLJ about "breaking the cycle"? It absolutely relishes the cycle and doubles down on it. It reset everything in the story back to ANH, which is the status-quo that anybody thinks of as "Star Wars" even if they've never seen a movie, and undid everything later movies changed. Nothing about the past died, the movie ends with an exaltation about how the Jedi were a-ok after all and Rey will carry on the torch. The Resistance literally starts calling itself Rebels again in the third act.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:09
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Kazoo Reverb posted:Kylo Ren who is closest to the truth, that it all needs to be swept away to break out of that cycle. However, he still clings to the empire equivalent (what was it, First Order?) I'm really interested to see what they do with this because I was surprised they even had him still in charge of the First Order or that he even wanted to be after he and Rey dropped Snoke/his elite guard dudes.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:17
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multijoe posted:SMG I would find your 'Darth Vader is an inhuman avatar of Justice' take far easier to swallow if there were like one scene in the franchise where he he was depicted giving a poo poo about injustice or being anything other than a fascist enforcer There's the scene where he kills himself to save Luke from torture. Luke attributes this to Vader's latent humanity - i.e. that Anakin came back to life to save Luke. But the truth is that Anakin was a fascist whose humanity led him to perform several massacres. Vader gave himself to save Luke. And Vader's sacrifice is just the culmination. The entirety of episodes 5 and 6 are about Vader's efforts to help Luke and the more left-wing rebels destroy the fascist Empire. Vader is mainly perceived as a mere bad guy because he also wishes to destroy the Republic. But Vader is not just bad. He is Evil. "I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the slaves." Importantly, Vader never accomplished this when he was alive. He put his trust in Luke to finish what he started. The ST is then explicitly about how Luke hosed it up - after Vader's sacrifice, Luke does absolutely nothing about slavery, restores the unjust Republic, and Palpatine is immediately reborn as Snoke.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:27
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It's fascinating to see how many people, like, buy into the TLJ memes (It's about 'breaking the cycle'! Rey isn't a chosen one!) when the film breaks nothing and the universe literally chose Rey to fight Kylo Ren.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:28
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I haven't seen any sick memes or anything but you do you dude. It breaks the cycle by Rey being a different type of Jedi. She has rejected the teachings of the Jedi and teamed with a Sith to destroy the evil order thing. If Ren had been strong enough to not be tempted by the throne, she would have taken his hand and reforged a new galaxy. The remaining rebels learned the lesson that they can't rely on ramshackle luck like they did in the past. Luke is the last remnant of that strategy that pays off one last time,leaving a seed of doubt in Ren's mind about his course, even as the resistance escapes, it's numbers down to nothing. The status quo it leaves behind isn't ANH. There are no Death Star Plans, and there is no macguffin that is going to save them. They are hopelessly outgunned, they are hopelessly outmanned, and the way they will win won't be militarily, but by winning the soul of Ben Solo. And Rey is going to have to do that rather than lead a military rebellion
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Jul 2, 2018 00:56
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Kazoo Reverb posted:I haven't seen any sick memes or anything but you do you dude. I can't wait for Episode 9.
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Jul 2, 2018 01:03
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Milky Moor posted:It's fascinating to see how many people, like, buy into the TLJ memes (It's about 'breaking the cycle'! Rey isn't a chosen one!) when the film breaks nothing and the universe literally chose Rey to fight Kylo Ren. The latter happened because people are fleetingly aware that there is a twist, of sorts, but they don't really understand the significance. The actual twist is that, where everyone else is pressuring Rey to become a part of whatever traditions, Kylo appreciates how she came 'from nothing' and therefore has the potential to be something radically new. This is clearly acting against all the prophecies from Maz, and Luke, and Snoke - that they are destined to fight each-other to the death or whatever because of blah blah blah cosmic principles. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 01:11
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Tender Bender posted:They are! And also Allston doesn't elevate any of them to protagonist status: he smartly moves on from Kell after he finishes his arc in the first book and is in danger of becoming Handsome Cool Space Hero. Wedge, Myn, Face, and Lara are all pretty equally prominent from then on, iirc. In the NJO, there were two books that were about Wedge, the Wraith and the other NJO main characters fighting a stalling battle after the fall of Coruscant that were really good. They were fighting against a Yuuzhan Vong tactician (the first competent one at that point) and using all kinds of tricks and tactics and I really like dit. This was also the books with the awesomely stupid Lord Nyax, the dude with lightsabers in his knees.
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Jul 2, 2018 01:13
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The stretch of NJO from those books and Traitor to Destiny's Way or so was kind of awesome honestly, even after all these years. Too bad everything before and after was so wretched
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Jul 2, 2018 01:43
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No Mods No Masters posted:The stretch of NJO from those books and Traitor to Destiny's Way or so was kind of awesome honestly, even after all these years. Too bad everything before and after was so wretched Yeah, they're the best part of the NJO. I also remember fondly the two books where Han Solo wandered into trouble accompanied by a space nomad and thwarted evil plans almost by mistake. It had a droid who wanted droid freedom.
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Jul 2, 2018 02:17
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Kazoo Reverb posted:I haven't seen any sick memes or anything but you do you dude. Rejecting the teachings of the Jedi to team up with a powerful Sith and kill the leader of the Empire isn’t exactly breaking new ground in Star Wars dude. quote:The remaining rebels learned the lesson that they can't rely on ramshackle luck like they did in the past. Luke is the last remnant of that strategy that pays off one last time,leaving a seed of doubt in Ren's mind about his course, even as the resistance escapes, it's numbers down to nothing. They learned they can’t rely on luck anymore by...doing nothing and hoping their wizard friends save them? Which is exactly what happens? I have no special attachment to Star Wars. I’ve seen the originals maybe twice each. But even divorced from the context of the series as a whole TLJ is a movie that subsists on twists that serve no real narrative purpose and all of which get walked back anyway to avoid brushing up too close to interesting, and potentially divisive, themes.
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Jul 2, 2018 02:18
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galagazombie posted:How the hell is TLJ about "breaking the cycle"? It absolutely relishes the cycle and doubles down on it. It reset everything in the story back to ANH, which is the status-quo that anybody thinks of as "Star Wars" even if they've never seen a movie, and undid everything later movies changed. Nothing about the past died, the movie ends with an exaltation about how the Jedi were a-ok after all and Rey will carry on the torch. The Resistance literally starts calling itself Rebels again in the third act. I think what "breaking the cycle" means in regards to TLJ is the implication that Rey intends to reform the Jedi in a way that makes it so the galaxy doesn't fall to poo poo every few decades because some powerful and willful Jedi falls to the dark at the wrong place and the wrong time. A Jedi Order based upon a belief in the intrinsic good of a person, rather than fear of their darker tendencies (something we saw quite a bit of in the Jedi of the prequels AND Luke post-ROTJ); it's that very ethos that informs much of Rey's actions in the film, and there's no reason to believe why she wouldn't try to teach it to others.
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Jul 2, 2018 03:12
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Cross-Section posted:I think what "breaking the cycle" means in regards to TLJ is the implication that Rey intends to reform the Jedi in a way that makes it so the galaxy doesn't fall to poo poo every few decades because some powerful and willful Jedi falls to the dark at the wrong place and the wrong time. But that's literally what Luke was about at the end of RotJ. You're saying she will repeat Luke's lesson from the OT. Once again showing that the whole ST is just making Star Wars an endless repeating cycle.
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Jul 2, 2018 03:20
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galagazombie posted:But that's literally what Luke was about at the end of RotJ. You're saying she will repeat Luke's lesson from the OT. Once again showing that the whole ST is just making Star Wars an endless repeating cycle. Only partly. Luke's main motivation for saving his father essentially comes down to "I'm not going to kill my own father." It's a faith in bloodline. And it's that same faith that eventually leads to Luke's failure of Ben. But it's interpreted in legend as a belief in goodness, which Rey takes to heart and why she is so set on redeeming Ben, despite the difference in context. Regardless, TLJ isn't the last film of this trilogy. It could go any number of ways in IX that don't conform to any previous thematic structures used in Star Wars.
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Jul 2, 2018 03:52
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Episode IX could go lots of places, but given that it’s written and directed by J.J. Abrams, my expectations are right around the level of Mass Effect 3.
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Jul 2, 2018 04:23
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So, exceptional until the last five minutes?
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Jul 2, 2018 04:29
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Bleck posted:So, exceptional until the last five minutes? The best Star Wars ever until the last five minutes, which are so bad that everyone forgets the preceding 2 hours existed at all.
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Jul 2, 2018 04:36
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me3's ending is actually symbolically really good - the three endings are a literalisation of the choice-wheel you've been using the whole time (there's a reason the beams are red, blue and green). the overall structure of the series, however, is all about hand-waving whenever a choice-wheel is used because nobody wants to write three or more radically different narratives depending on the players' choice, every time they make a decision. and when you combine with what i can only assume were time/budget constraints, this means the choice-wheel breaks down at the worst possible time: the conclusion of the story, where the hand-waving becomes blatantly obvious and the endings are basically identical. the extended cut doesn't really fix this issue because it's a systemic flaw inherent in the entire series. contrast with the suicide mission, which doesn't use literal choice-wheels but replicates the effect with mission assignments and loyalties, and which actually has the consequences of your choices matter (although the game still hand-waves some choices because they feel the need to let the player 'win', like when two party members face off or tali's entire loyalty mission). but all those consequences are warped by the fact that this is the end of act II, and act III can't and won't be written with every possible permutation in mind.
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Jul 2, 2018 04:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There's the scene where he kills himself to save Luke from torture. Luke attributes this to Vader's latent humanity - i.e. that Anakin came back to life to save Luke. But the truth is that Anakin was a fascist whose humanity led him to perform several massacres. Vader gave himself to save Luke. His saving Luke is explicitly a change of heart which represents the victory of Luke's perspective of him against Vader's own self-image. quote:LUKE In the next paragraph, you restate your thesis without showing your work. e: your point about interpreting what the father/son connection represents in terms of their goals and ideals is an interesting direction which might provide the evidence you need. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 05:18
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ungulateman posted:me3's ending is actually symbolically really good - the three endings are a literalisation of the choice-wheel you've been using the whole time (there's a reason the beams are red, blue and green). the overall structure of the series, however, is all about hand-waving whenever a choice-wheel is used because nobody wants to write three or more radically different narratives depending on the players' choice, every time they make a decision. I feel like this is maybe under-appreciative of the breadth of the branching storylines in the ME trilogy. Like yeah, the main plot is still basically the same, but there's so, so, so many different stories among the groups of characters of that game. The ending felt bad because your choices actually mattered a lot up until that point. Maybe not the right thread for this, though.
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Jul 2, 2018 05:32
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I will be content with Episode IX provided I am entertained by it for a couple of hours. I don't really have any expectations for it beyond that, which is really how I feel about all movies.
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Jul 2, 2018 08:27
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There's the scene where he kills himself to save Luke from torture. Luke attributes this to Vader's latent humanity - i.e. that Anakin came back to life to save Luke. But the truth is that Anakin was a fascist whose humanity led him to perform several massacres. Vader gave himself to save Luke. Hodgepodge posted:His saving Luke is explicitly a change of heart which represents the victory of Luke's perspective of him against Vader's own self-image. Yeah, Vader saving Luke was a heel turn and something he clearly struggled to do as it involved turning against the Emperor. As for him helping the 'left-wing rebels' in ESB, how? He mentions ruling the galaxy as father and son, but even assuming he's not lying to bring Luke on side there's nothing inherently socialist about a general overthrowing a dictator. And again, at no point in the OT does Vader make a single positive statement or action about helping people or ending injustice up until he saves Luke. Anakin certainly did, but as we agree Vader is not Anakin.
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Jul 2, 2018 09:18
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I mean TLJ at least from a military standpoint breaks the cycle. For the entire OT the rebels basically say "If we win this one giant victory the galaxy will rally around us!" And they do, and it does, until they overthrow the empire. In TFA and TLJ the resistance has a very similar attitude. And they succeed, they blow up Star Killer base, they take down a dreadnought, they destroy Snoke's flagship. None of that matters. The Galaxy doesn't rally around them because every time they win an impossible victory, the First Order dusts itself off and goes "We've got more where that came from." Perhaps the people are tired of war, they've seen it all before. If a person in the Galaxy is 70 then at that point they've been through 3 galactic conflicts in their life. But, every time the Resistance wins it feels like they're losing, every time the Rebels win it's the opposite.
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Jul 2, 2018 12:29
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multijoe posted:Yeah, Vader saving Luke was a heel turn and something he clearly struggled to do as it involved turning against the Emperor. Overthrowing a dictator and replacing them with another dictator is left wing 101.
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Jul 2, 2018 13:04
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Rejecting the teachings of the Jedi to team up with a powerful Sith and kill the leader of the Empire isn’t exactly breaking new ground in Star Wars dude. They expected Luke to come back and kick rear end and for that to immediately rally their friends and allies to the cause. Instead their friends never even show up on screen and ditch them completely while Luke just gives them a chance to not be totally wiped out for a little longer so they can hopefully try something different.
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Jul 2, 2018 14:17
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Wheat Loaf posted:I will be content with Episode IX provided I am entertained by it for a couple of hours. I don't really have any expectations for it beyond that, which is really how I feel about all movies. Indeed. I was really peeved at TLJ until I realized that SW isn't the only vehicle for good sci-fi stories, just the one I was most emotionally attached to and excited about. It actually got me to watch other series I had put on the backburner (partly out of spite, as sad as it sounds) which led to me finding new favorites (  ). But when I was looking for the ST to be the end-all-be-all, of course I was gonna be disappointed when it turned out to be 'just a movie, more or less, with some flaws'.I'm more disappointed at the lack of video games from this trilogy (quadrilogy, pintology?). I'd love a Super Star Wars-esque 2D platformer where you blow up all the things regardless of canonicity. Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 14:28
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Natural 20 posted:Perhaps the people are tired of war, they've seen it all before. If a person in the Galaxy is 70 then at that point they've been through 3 galactic conflicts in their life. Also the cycle is always Sith vs. Jedi and it drags the entire universe into the conflict. Every loving time. All the leaders in the Resistance in TLJ say "May the Force be with you" to each other constantly. If you were a grunt in that universe, outside of fangirl Rose, would you ever want to hear that poo poo? The embodiments of the religion are the reason why you're constantly loving fighting. Poe starts the film filled with that same bullshit "one dude can win this war" leaning that filled the original trilogy and by the end he recognizes that simply isn't true. Luke never won any wars. He blew up a space station and he got daddy to turn and kill the Emperor but they are STILL loving FIGHTING that war. The "spark that lights the fire" consists of a dude disillusioned with the heroic propaganda of old, and a force-sensitive woman of common birth who has had almost zero training in the Jedi path.
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Jul 2, 2018 14:44
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Dishwasher posted:I'm more disappointed at the lack of video games from this trilogy (quadrilogy, pintology?). I'd love a Super Star Wars-esque 2D platformer where you blow up all the things regardless of canonicity. I wonder why there haven't been many games outside the Battlefronts. Is it just because EA is lazier than LucasArts was? Is it because the video game landscape has changed in some way since 2012? (I know very little about video games or how the industry works, so I honestly have no idea if that's likely to be a factor.)
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Jul 2, 2018 14:55
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I think it's probably a combination of increased game budgets, a move away from AAA single-player games, a reluctance from EA to be experimental and brand consistency enforced by Lucasfilm.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:03
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Hodgepodge posted:His saving Luke is explicitly a change of heart which represents the victory of Luke's perspective of him against Vader's own self-image. You are relying on expository dialogue about what Luke thinks is happening and what he thinks will happen. That’s where Luke’s meme dialogue in TLJ is actually apt; every word of what he says is wrong, and it is not going to go the way he thinks. Luke believes, for example, that Vader’s offer at the end of ESB represents his hidden allegiance to the Republic. Like, Vader is simply unwilling to admit that he loves Republicanism. Luke insists that this Republican side, named Anakin Skywalker, is Vader’s real self and also purely good. Vader simply needs to stop ‘holding on to hate’(?). Luke insists that Anakin is his real father, not Vader - which, as we’ve gone over before, refers to the inspirational lie Obiwan told him. Luke has become shifty and adopted a ‘certain point of view’ to cope with the Truth that Vader represents. In the actual events of the film, Vader remains resolute and does not waver. He battles Luke to the death, and Luke loving flips out when he feels the Republic is in danger. Luke brutally beats Vader, and then Luke has a change of heart and decides to become a pacifist. He chooses to abandon his friends and just die for no reason. Luke’s sudden ethical decision, forsaking the Rebellion and letting go of Republicanism, empowers Vader to kill the emperor. Anakin then emerges after Vader dies. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 15:14
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EA games is terrible and they kill every studio they acquire through incompetence. The star wars license has been given to like 5 or 6 studios. 1 of them is Dice and they keep getting ratfucked by EA's business practices ( rush BF1 out the door to coincide with movie, fill BF2 with microtransactions.) 1 of them was the Amy Hennig (?) studio that was creating a single player heist story that sounded pretty cool but apparently was not coming along fast enough and was not sufficiently marketable as a "service" (ie keeping money rolling in non-stop) so it got shelved. The other 4 are mobile developers and their games are all INSANE cash grab microtransaction pieces of poo poo that I would not recommend to anyone even though I played all of them. Giving EA exclusive license was a huge bumblefuck by Disney. I get they were being careful with the IP (all SW games are reviewed by the story group now for consistency) but they should have licensed it to each of the big studios to help get games out. The fact we are 4 movies in to the star wars reboot and most of the games are mobile and the only "real games" are two DICE battlefield shooters is pathetic. Star Wars gaming is at its best as single player stories or as a martial arts themed game about the beauty of teras kasi. Edit: Also apparently Disney hosed up even further in the contract negotiation where the bar EA had to clear to keep the exclusivity based on sales was set to low due to some EA trickery or whatever and they can't be kicked off it now. This came from a guy who worked at one of the studios that made a star wars mobile game so take it how you like. I forgot about the lego star wars games but im not sure if they can keep making them or not. Games that were already licensed before the EA deal were allowed to continue which is how KABAM! was able to make a lovely diablo ARPG mobile game about star wars despite not being owned by EA (its dead now, don't worry it was terrible) \/\/ Jerkface fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 15:14
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Jerkface posted:Giving EA exclusive license was a huge bumblefuck by Disney. I get they were being careful with the IP (all SW games are reviewed by the story group now for consistency) but they should have licensed it to each of the big studios to help get games out. The fact we are 4 movies in to the star wars reboot and most of the games are mobile and the only "real games" are two DICE battlefield shooters is pathetic. Star Wars gaming is at its best as single player stories or as a martial arts themed game about the beauty of teras kasi. It was so shortsighted, like yeah Masters of Teras Kasi is a horrible game but if they wanted Star Wars games regularly they should have really embraced how you can take "Star Wars" and make an awesome single player RPG out of it, a flight sim, a pure action game, an MMO (well no EA somehow blew that too) and people will eat it up as long as it's not like embarrassingly bad. Hell the LEGO Star Wars games were mega-popular.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:21
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Kazoo Reverb posted:All the leaders in the Resistance in TLJ say "May the Force be with you" to each other constantly. It's a parallel to "god bless America"/"god bless the troops" in the real world (with the obvious exception that the Force actually exists and can potentially actually be used to help the Resistance)
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Jul 2, 2018 15:32
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Kazoo Reverb posted:Also the cycle is always Sith vs. Jedi and it drags the entire universe into the conflict. Every loving time. The good storyline in the MMO had the Space Illuminati manipulating both sides to keep the Jedi and Sith fighting until they wipe each other out and leave the rest of the Galaxy alone. Unfortunately you couldn't join them.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:09
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