|
Some videos and tweets from protests in Khoramshahr today. The city is facing a drought and a water crisis. Security forces opened fire with 1-5 being reported killed. This is a primer from iranwire that shows some footage from before nightfall. https://twitter.com/IranWireEnglish/status/1012745440322834432?s=19 Once it got dark, things escalated, as has been the trend throughout these protests. https://twitter.com/Tavaana/status/1013173988124708870?s=19 https://twitter.com/sorankhateri/status/1013158883110596608?s=19 https://twitter.com/BehnamMousivand/status/1013167651617636353?s=19
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2018 05:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 06:43 |
|
|
Haha at 0:13, is that a "holy poo poo" I hear?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2018 07:13
|
|
|
The offensive on Hodeidah has been "paused". From the FT (paywalled): quote:
quote:
Clearly a tough nut to crack!
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2018 19:35
|
|
|
Didn't know what thread to bring this up in: https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1013418865341140992  Wouldn't Palestinians then and the Syrians more recently in Lebanon be better characterized as refugees, not "uncontrolled immigrants"?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2018 20:53
|
|
|
It's only occasionally that I drop the shitposting facade and dare to join D&D discussion threads, but if this interactive map/database of chemical weapon attacks in Syria helps anyone with their research...: https://syrianarchive.org/en/collections/chemical-weapons/database
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2018 22:11
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Didn't know what thread to bring this up in: "As a Christian Lebanese" is rarely followed by anything not regressive when it comes to the diaspora.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2018 22:50
|
|
|
It's kind of like there are severe ethnic and sectarian tensions that the current events are only exacerbating.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2018 23:10
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:
In the 70s they literally could not be controlled by the Lebanese state, Palestinian militias were armed and operated a state within their state
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2018 23:57
|
|
|
LinYutang posted:In the 70s they literally could not be controlled by the Lebanese state, Palestinian militias were armed and operated a state within their state But most of them came in during the Nakba, I thought. The armed PLO leadership in the 1970s came there from Jordan after Black September. It was less an issue of uncontrolled migration per se. And it's definitely not a good parallel to open borders in the US.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 00:04
|
|
|
Waffle House posted:It's only occasionally that I drop the shitposting facade and dare to join D&D discussion threads, but if this interactive map/database of chemical weapon attacks in Syria helps anyone with their research...: We're working closely with the Syrian Archive at the moment to get lots of archives of videos from Syria online. Broadly there's two categories, open source videos from social media, which could be anything to 1 to 5 million videos, and offline archives, the number of which is unknown, but also likely to be huge. We want to get dates and locations (ideally precisely geolocated) for as many as possible, then have the searchable by using a geofenced search of areas of interest. Our big focus is how to make these scattered archives more easily accessible to the likes of the ICC and IIIM on Syria, and we'll use the tools and methodologies developed to create similar archives for other conflicts. Currently we're setting up a similar project for Yemen.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 06:52
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Wouldn't Palestinians then and the Syrians more recently in Lebanon be better characterized as refugees, not "uncontrolled immigrants"? Let's say you live in California, and suddenly you had an influx of 50 million Alabamans and Mississippians flood into your state. You probably would stop giving a poo poo about terminology and a lot more of a poo poo about rising prices, lowered wages, difficulty of finding jobs, homes, and the eventual militias that the southerners would set up to harass you. Yeah there's justice and humanitarianism, but at some point you have to actually care about your own life over that of others. Lebanon has been well more than generous to its neighbors (and taken advantage of by its neighbors), and it has suffered for it. Hard to say how much of that is due to its generosity and how much of that is due to what was forced upon it, of course.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 07:45
|
|
|
Saladman posted:Let's say you live in California, and suddenly you had an influx of 50 million Alabamans and Mississippians flood into your state. You probably would stop giving a poo poo about terminology and a lot more of a poo poo about rising prices, lowered wages, difficulty of finding jobs, homes, and the eventual militias that the southerners would set up to harass you. There's also no law preventing that from happening.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 13:15
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:There's also no law preventing that from happening. Hurricanes have caused/are causing similar migrations within the US, it's unlikely a state with the resources of California would have much trouble. That probably wasn't the point of the example though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 13:34
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:Hurricanes have caused/are causing similar migrations within the US, it's unlikely a state with the resources of California would have much trouble. That probably wasn't the point of the example though. Well, the OP seems to be comparing a flood of 25% of the population in refugees in a war-torn country to a trickle of less than 0.1% of the population. It's big in its own terms, but we're talking hundreds of thousands of people seeking refuge in a country with hundreds of millions of people.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 14:19
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Well, the OP seems to be comparing a flood of 25% of the population in refugees in a war-torn country to a trickle of less than 0.1% of the population. It's big in its own terms, but we're talking hundreds of thousands of people seeking refuge in a country with hundreds of millions of people. I was bringing the point back to whoever it was who implied that some Maronite Lebanese was super racist for not wanting 2+ million Sunni Arab refugees in his country. The US could definitely take way, way, way more people and it would have zero impact on the social structure or finances of the US. While there's no law preventing the entire population of the rural south from moving to California, if there was some Civil War v2.0 and everyone did, Californians would definitely flip poo poo and do everything they could to prevent the new incomers from voting in constitutional referendums, you can bet your house on that. I don't know how many rural southerners there are, probably way fewer than 50 million, but it's not meant to be a practical example.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 14:56
|
|
|
Saladman posted:Let's say you live in California, and suddenly you had an influx of 50 million Alabamans and Mississippians flood into your state. You probably would stop giving a poo poo about terminology and a lot more of a poo poo about rising prices, lowered wages, difficulty of finding jobs, homes, and the eventual militias that the southerners would set up to harass you. Over the course of the late 1920s into the late 1930s and a bit earlier, nearly 3.5 million people from the area around and including Oklahoma fled to California and another few million to states around California. The population of California was only 3,426,861 at the 1920 census. So basically this already happened and people had to deal with it. And a huge proportion of the current California population is descended from that ~12 or so year period of migration, even though many ultimately moved back by the 60s. fishmech fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jul 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 17:10
|
|
|
This was at the NCRI(MEK) rally in Paris. Lots of western politicians show up for that thing. Crisis averted. https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/1013811771763765248?s=19
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 17:15
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/KreaseChan/status/1013799453965381632
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 18:00
|
|
|
Saladman posted:I was bringing the point back to whoever it was who implied that some Maronite Lebanese was super racist for not wanting 2+ million Sunni Arab refugees in his country. The US could definitely take way, way, way more people and it would have zero impact on the social structure or finances of the US. While there's no law preventing the entire population of the rural south from moving to California, if there was some Civil War v2.0 and everyone did, Californians would definitely flip poo poo and do everything they could to prevent the new incomers from voting in constitutional referendums, you can bet your house on that. That’s all true but Taleb is actually a nutjob who is obsessed with biotruths race science icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 18:09
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 18:23
|
|
|
There's a possibility of distant Greek ancestry in the non-Greek Greek-Orthodox populations in the Middle East, sure. But uh didn't this dude say he was Maronite? Also nothing about having Greek ancestry eons back makes your modern ethnicity Greek lol. Or "not Arab" in this case.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 22:06
|
|
|
[quote="“Grape”" post="“485744881”"] There’s a possibility of distant Greek ancestry in the non-Greek Greek-Orthodox populations in the Middle East, sure. But uh didn’t this dude say he was Maronite? Also nothing about having Greek ancestry eons back makes your modern ethnicity Greek lol. Or “not Arab” in this case. [/quote] He’s not Maronite but Greek Orthodox. The traditional endonym for Lebanon’s Arabic speaking Greek Orthodox community is or was Romaioi, meaning Romans. When I read one of his books this is the term he says was in use, although I seem to remember he avoided using it himself.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 23:05
|
|
|
Squalid posted:He’s not Maronite but Greek Orthodox. The traditional endonym for Lebanon’s Arabic speaking Greek Orthodox community is or was Romaioi, meaning Romans. When I read one of his books this is the term he says was in use, although I seem to remember he avoided using it himself. Either way I'm assuming like the rest of Lebanon they're long since deeply Arabized in all respects. Ergo what one would call "being Arab".
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 23:29
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:Iranian Protest Videos Why is this not getting more press? I heard a single snippet about it like on Friday, nothing since. Sinteres posted:President Deals is going to fix Syria: Trump: OK, in order for the US to leave Syria I need yo- Putin: Yes Trump: But I didn't even say wh- Putin: Yes Does anyone think Russia would hesitate for a second tell Trump anything he wants to hear to get us out of Syria? pro starcraft loser fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jul 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2018 23:31
|
|
|
pro starcraft loser posted:Trump: OK, in order for the US to leave Syria I need yo-
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 00:07
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:What I don't get is what kind of deal is Trump looking to make there , and why can't he just unilaterally order a withdrawal? Putin's definitely not stopping him. Are we so sure of that lol.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 00:09
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:What I don't get is what kind of deal is Trump looking to make there , and why can't he just unilaterally order a withdrawal? Putin's definitely not stopping him. I don't know what Trump's thinking (probably not much--I don't think he's meeting with Putin over geopolitical concerns so much as he just wants to meet a guy he's presumably at least thankful/indebted to, and who he seems to admire on a personal level), but any reasonable US administration wanting to get out should still use the position we have in the country to extract some level of concessions from the groups that would like us to go. Russia immediately bombing the Kurds would look pretty awful, so a rational US administration looking to get out of the country ASAP would be working with the Russians to put pressure on both Assad and the YPG to get together for political negotiations to bring the Kurds back under the Syrian government's authority, with concessions on both sides. This would remove a major friction point in our relationship with Turkey, and could conceivably create one between Turkey and Russia since Turkey would then be the only outside force holding substantial territory in the country. We'd probably want to work with Russia to limit Iranian influence in post-war Syria too, which Russia already seems at least somewhat inclined to do as it is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 00:21
|
|
|
[quote="“Grape”" post="“485747159”"] Either way I’m assuming like the rest of Lebanon they’re long since deeply Arabized in all respects. Ergo what one would call “being Arab”. [/quote] Have you considered that it’s actually kind of weird and obnoxious to paint someone arbitrarily with your own labels, rather than accepting their self-professed identities? Who the gently caress are you to tell someone what they are. Especially when you obviously have no idea what the hell you’re talking about. Rhomaios was what his community had called itself for a thousand years so as to be distinguished from their Muslim, Maronite, and other neighbors. It’s offensive and orientalist as hell to just go “lol Arabs am I right?” Seriously what the gently caress are you doing Edit: though I don’t think Taleb would actually be offended by being called an Arab, though I would be surprised if some Arab speaking Greek Orthodox would be.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 00:31
|
|
|
Also, from the Russian perspective, I imagine they want the complete details on any American pullout plan so they can act accordingly and not be caught off-guard.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 00:32
|
|
|
Squalid posted:Edit: though I don’t think Taleb would actually be offended by being called an Arab, though I would be surprised if some Arab speaking Greek Orthodox would be. Yes he would, and that's the whole point of his rambling assertion that he's not. https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/957026905592598528?lang=en https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/944722395050455042?lang=en
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 00:40
|
|
|
Squalid posted:Have you considered that it’s actually kind of weird and obnoxious to paint someone arbitrarily with your own labels, rather than accepting their self-professed identities? When that motivation is essentially racist, no, no I don't. Also it's objectively stupid to claim to be Greek based on distant (like over a millennia ago) ancestry. The same ballpark as white Americans identifying as Cherokee based off a 2% genetic trace. quote:Rhomaios was what his community had called itself for a thousand years so as to be distinguished from their Muslim, Maronite, and other neighbors. That doesn't make it apart from the wider Arab world. quote:It’s offensive and orientalist as hell to just go “lol Arabs am I right?” Seriously what the gently caress are you doing Straining at the seams to disassociate with Arabness is the orientalist position in this scenario. To be precise, local groups adopting orientalist thinking and prejudices to file themselves as "good ones". I have no clue where you got the idea I was laughing at Arabs or whatever. quote:though I would be surprised if some Arab speaking Greek Orthodox would be. And what exactly do you think motivates this?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 00:47
|
|
|
It is probably higher than 2%, Mount Lebanon was long a home of refuge for various religious sects from the late Roman period onward. If he wants to say he isn't Arab (genetically most Lebanese are probably a hodgepodge anyway), what is the issue? (Language isn't the same thing as ethnicity identity.) Also, the beef Lebanese Christians have with "Arabness" probably goes way-way farther back.... think a millenia or more. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jul 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 00:56
|
|
|
Arabs are a strange way to classify people anyway. Its usually meant to be an ethnic group, but it shouldn't come as much of a surprise that people from say Morocco and Yemen don't have much common ancestry. They've got language, religion and a shared history, which is apparently enough, even with all the grey areas and exceptions.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 01:48
|
|
|
Count Roland posted:Arabs are a strange way to classify people anyway. Its usually meant to be an ethnic group, but it shouldn't come as much of a surprise that people from say Morocco and Yemen don't have much common ancestry. They've got language, religion and a shared history, which is apparently enough, even with all the grey areas and exceptions. Language, religion and shared history being a really big part of what determines perceived ethnicity is super normal historically though, outside of modern population movements. There's a reason separatist ethnic groups focus so much anger on mandatory state education in the majority language in various countries around the world, and there's a reason a lot of central governments like to promote those policies despite the resentment it sparks. Obviously some areas do maintain (or regain) strong nationalist sentiment even after adopting the language of their oppressors (see Ireland), but it's not like Arabization is some idea outsiders came up with as a way to view people who speak Arabic--it's a real thing that describes the assimilation of many people in areas conquered by Arabs as they adopted the language and customs of their conquerers, and came to identify with them. Lebanon's case is just tricker than a lot of others because a local Christian population aligned itself with the crusaders, and then after the crusader states fell they were still largely protected by the Ottoman Empire long enough for French colonizers to show up and favor them and then create the state of Lebanon, so their distinctness played a big part in their country's existence, even if the Maronites ultimately failed to maintain their dominance of the country as they'd hoped.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 02:49
|
|
|
Grape posted:When that motivation is essentially racist, no, no I don't. Lol yes the anti-racist is coming in here ready to tell the confused minorities exactly who they are and what that identity is supposed to mean. Just stop and look at what your doing here for a second dude. This is not a path that's ever led anywhere good, especially not in the modern Middle East. edit: Sinteres posted:Language, religion and shared history being a really big part of what determines perceived ethnicity is super normal historically though, outside of modern population movements. There's a reason separatist ethnic groups focus so much anger on mandatory state education in the majority language in various countries around the world, and there's a reason a lot of central governments like to promote those policies despite the resentment it sparks. Obviously some areas do maintain (or regain) strong nationalist sentiment even after adopting the language of their oppressors (see Ireland), but it's not like Arabization is some idea outsiders came up with as a way to view people who speak Arabic--it's a real thing that describes the assimilation of many people in areas conquered by Arabs as they adopted the language and customs of their conquerers, and came to identify with them. This is a terrible summary of both the meaning of ethnicity and also the history of Lebanon. I don't even know where to start. Squalid fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jul 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 02:57
|
|
|
Squalid posted:Lol yes the anti-racist is coming in here ready to tell the confused minorities exactly who they are and what that identity is supposed to mean. Just stop and look at what your doing here for a second dude. This is not a path that's ever led anywhere good, especially not in the modern Middle East. It's coming off way more orientalist to not actually examine and be critical with Middle Eastern ethnic controversy, like it's some mysterious gordian knot that outsiders can never interpret. Also I'm pretty intimate and familial with a neighboring ethnic conflict so it's not like I'm some total outsider. Also calling them minorities when we're talking the context of their own country is lol. And is further funny given that Arab Christians of this sort of mind would be infuriated at the implication that they are not white. Pro tip my outsider friend, Middle Eastern Christians in general feel this way. Armenian, Arab, Copt, Greek Cypriot, Georgian, Assyrian whatever. Ardennes posted:It is probably higher than 2%, Mount Lebanon was long a home of refuge for various religious sects from the late Roman period onward. If he wants to say he isn't Arab (genetically most Lebanese are probably a hodgepodge anyway), what is the issue? Maronites are the ones who clustered around Mount Lebanon, Greek Orthodox Christians in the Middle East are historically coastal people, their headquarters church being based in Antakya. The hinterlands Christians were usually Oriental Orthodox (like the Assyrians), with the Maronites being a Catholic oriented exception. As to the issue, there's some hella baggage and implications connected to that sort of stuff in modern framing. I'd file it in with Ulster Scot insistence on being more culturally connected to British things than Irish things, even after like 300 years. Grape fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Jul 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 03:18
|
|
|
Squalid posted:This is a terrible summary of both the meaning of ethnicity and also the history of Lebanon. I don't even know where to start. You can try and be pedantic and say that ethnicity is just about genetics, but if you look at the way local communities with their own languages have come to identify as part of a national whole (see the French), cultural assimilation obviously does (or has) led to people assuming the dominant ethnic identity as their own. Obviously there's been a trend toward fragmentation over the last century, and it's not like it never happened before that either, but ethnicity can be a pretty fluid concept. Turkey's another example, and the way their government promotes a concept of Turkic solidarity even though modern Turks are at least as closely related to the natives of Anatolia who were conquered by the Turks than they are to other Turkic people--again, there were incentives to assimilate with the dominant culture, and now people proudly identify with it (though obviously there are still ethnic minorities who maintained their distinct customs and languages who don't).
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 03:20
|
|
|
I essentially would never connect ethnicity with genetics, and the Arab ethnicity is the best example on earth. Given it spans people who look white as heck in parts of the Levant , to straight up black people in Sudan.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 03:24
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:You can try and be pedantic and say that ethnicity is just about genetics, but if you look at the way local communities with their own languages have come to identify as part of a national whole (see the French), cultural assimilation obviously does (or has) led to people assuming the dominant ethnic identity as their own. Obviously there's been a trend toward fragmentation over the last century, and it's not like it never happened before that either, but ethnicity can be a pretty fluid concept. Turkey's another example, and the way their government promotes a concept of Turkic solidarity even though modern Turks are at least as closely related to the natives of Anatolia who were conquered by the Turks than they are to other Turkic people--again, there were incentives to assimilate with the dominant culture, and now people proudly identify with it (though obviously there are still ethnic minorities who maintained their distinct customs and languages who don't). Looking back at the post I don't disagree as much as I thought I did, I think I was just fired up already when I saw your post. Obviously people like Taleb know very well what they have in common with the rest of the Arabic speaking world. Many levantine christians have been Arab nationalists, as well as Romans, and Lebanese, and even all of these things at the same time. There is no contradiction at all. There are many reasons someone might emphasize one identity over the other, and it really isn't the place of any outsider to presume to know better than those who live it everyday. Frankly I don't care a bit why they choose one over the other; it's not my concern. There's absolutely nothing that makes one identity more real than another. Also nobody being pedantic would ever say ethnicity is about genetics.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 04:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 06:43 |
|
|
Grape posted:Maronites are the ones who clustered around Mount Lebanon, Greek Orthodox Christians in the Middle East are historically coastal people, their headquarters church being based in Antakya. The hinterlands Christians were usually Oriental Orthodox (like the Assyrians), with the Maronites being a Catholic oriented exception. Traditionally there was always several Greek Orthodox communities around Mount Lebanon, it wasn't the only place the were. Admittedly, also in fairly recent history as far as the Middle East goes there was a much larger ethnically Greek community in Turkey which explains some of what is going on (even if the groups aren't necessarily genetically similar there is going to be more of a cultural affinity.) (Also, many Lebanese Christians seem to push more the "Phoenician" line which is a little more of a reach but hell, if they want to go for it.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2018 05:39
|
|