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FistEnergy posted:When it comes to Tesla discussion, we really should act like Electrek doesn't exist. The editor is rabidly pro-Musk. He had a 40k/year department store job in Canada before starting the site and glomming specifically onto Tesla. He makes a ton of money off of Tesla referrals (80-100k I think) and doesn't really disclose it on Electrek's website. Everyone should be aware of this. I still read them from time to time because they report on really mundane stuff you might not see elsewhere. The Truth Behind Electrek's Shady Alliance with Tesla
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Jul 2, 2018 20:00
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FistEnergy posted:When it comes to Tesla discussion, we really should act like Electrek doesn't exist. The editor is rabidly pro-Musk. He had a 40k/year department store job in Canada before starting the site and glomming specifically onto Tesla. He makes a ton of money off of Tesla referrals (80-100k I think) and doesn't really disclose it on Electrek's website. The article is mostly just reporting what Elon said himself on the earnings call. Can anyone find an article saying any other manufacturer thinks they can mass produce packs at a lower cost in the next few years? Nissan is the only manufacturer who has been making packs close to as long and while I can't find specific numbers they are charging $230/kWh to replace a Leaf pack (who knows if they are looking to profit off replacements or if that is close to their costs). Is Clean Technica any better? https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/09/100-kwh-tesla-battery-cells-this-year-100-kwh-tesla-battery-packs-in-2020/ Elon Musk posted:We think at the cell level probably we can do better than $100/kWh maybe later this year … depending upon [stable] commodity prices…. [W]ith further improvements to the cell chemistry, the production process, and more vertical integration on the cell side, for example, integrating the production of cathode and anode materials at the Gigafactory, and improved design of the module and pack, we think long-term we can get below $100/kWh at the pack level. Which is really the key figure of merit for a car. But long-term meaning definitely less than 2 years.
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Jul 2, 2018 20:03
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I think that they said that currently Tesla is at $140/kWh and they hope to reach the $100/kWh mark. The $140 is quite well in line with the GM price of buying them from LG. Nissan gave up on in-house battery production because they couldn't compete with third party manufacturers. I think they also buy then from LG nowadays.
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Jul 2, 2018 20:13
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eeenmachine posted:Doesn't Tesla have the lowest battery costs of any manufacturer combined with the highest capacities? Their cooling and management (cooling ribbons between the cylindrical cells) have also provided better longevity than anyone expected. Yeah it's sort of like, this might not be the best way to do things, but we got it nailed down and it's cheap. Like running some garbage yet indestructible i6 for decades, or VW's air cooled 4. Are there better engines? You bet! But cheap and durable is also a way to do things.
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Jul 2, 2018 21:30
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Three Olives posted:Someone will probably correct me but my understanding is using cylindrical cells for a car is less than ideal for a number of reasons including energy density, cooling, safety, etc. content: EV West's refreshed M3 with a Tesla drive unit. The first version of this car set the streetlegal electric record at Pike's Peak in 2012, which stood until someone in a stripped down Tesla beat it. Now the car is ~1000 pounds lighter than it was then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl7VYwrkLDI bawfuls fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 21:40
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bawfuls posted:Tesla modules are the most energy dense on any current OEM EVs though. There is a reason they are the most popular among the DIY conversion enthusiasts these days, despite Leaf and Volt batteries being more plentiful. They also have the most robust integrated cooling system, with a coolant jacket that touches two sides of every cell. Zero Motorcycles’ reps claimed back in 2017 when I snagged my bike that their chemistry had the best density per kg in the automotive world at the expense of fast charge times (only 1C before they literally make you blow a fuse to prevent overcharging the pack). They’ve most definitely been beaten by now, but I can’t help but wonder if anyone had the wherewithal to snag a bunch of packs, pare them down to some equal chunk like 5kWh and see who wins.  Also thank you all for introducing me to the Ioniq, a car I cannot own in GA because I don’t think it exists anywhere but the magical land of actual US freedom, good seafood tacos and weed. 
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Jul 3, 2018 00:22
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Any iPace owners in the thread yet? I'd trade my X for one in a second if it could access the supercharger network.
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Jul 3, 2018 00:56
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Ripoff posted:Zero Motorcycles’ reps claimed back in 2017 when I snagged my bike that their chemistry had the best density per kg in the automotive world at the expense of fast charge times (only 1C before they literally make you blow a fuse to prevent overcharging the pack). You EV car guys have it easy, it's still the wild west in electric motorcycles.
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Jul 3, 2018 04:31
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Why would you care about fast charge rates on an electric motorcycle? The battery has to be tiny by comparison to a car, even on level 1 you’re going to easily recharge it at home every evening. Edit: I guess I’m assuming you’d never try to take a road long trip on an electric bike.
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Jul 3, 2018 04:54
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eyebeem posted:I’d guess it’s a Tango t600. According to their site, there are only 12 in existence I noticed they have a video on their site- http://www.commutercars.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS3o3XL87So Pretty trippy. They have a long discussion on cost of kits/low volume production - http://www.commutercars.com/buy-lease-rent.html Kinda relevant to the tesla conversation.
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Jul 3, 2018 05:06
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bawfuls posted:Why would you care about fast charge rates on an electric motorcycle? The battery has to be tiny by comparison to a car, even on level 1 you’re going to easily recharge it at home every evening. Well, you couldn't. The thing that stops me from buying a Zero (well, besides the $13k sticker) is that even the longest-ranged version barely squeaks out 200 miles. I ride out to the middle of nowhere to camp on a regular basis and my favorite lazy-sunday twisty-mountain-road loop is 250 miles door to door.
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Jul 3, 2018 05:17
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bawfuls posted:Why would you care about fast charge rates on an electric motorcycle? The battery has to be tiny by comparison to a car, even on level 1 you’re going to easily recharge it at home every evening. Terry Hershner did the first Iron Butt (1,000 miles in 24 hours) in 2014, which is practically the stone age in terms of Zeros. He did it by creating a fairing and stacking a lot of 3rd party chargers and driving up and down California. If you do the math there's not a lot of time left over for charging in that 24 hours. There's a nice photo of him taking up 4 chargers towards the end of this page: https://newatlas.com/electric-terry-hershner-interview/53603/. These days he charges at 26kW using two J1772 plugs and a Tesla L2 plug, to let him go from SF to LA in a reasonable amount of time. In other words: people want to do motorcycle things with their electric motorcycle, which includes road tripping. I've been thinking about a trip from Denver to Mt. Rushmore and back and it will involve carrying a 7lb. portable EVSE that'll convert NEMA 14-50 to J1772, since there's no J1772 in a 250-mile stretch of the trip but plenty of RV parks. Ulf fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Jul 3, 2018 |
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Jul 3, 2018 05:19
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Nostalgic Cashew posted:Saw this one yesterday. The aspect ratio on your camera seems hosed up, let me fix that. 
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Jul 3, 2018 05:59
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Sagebrush posted:Well, you couldn't. The thing that stops me from buying a Zero (well, besides the $13k sticker) is that even the longest-ranged version barely squeaks out 200 miles. I ride out to the middle of nowhere to camp on a regular basis and my favorite lazy-sunday twisty-mountain-road loop is 250 miles door to door. And that's 200 miles city, it's like half that highway. I have to assume that battery densities will never reach the point where you could fit 200+ miles of highway charge on a bike, so better fast charging is vital.
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Jul 3, 2018 07:03
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Yeah. Motorcycles are just inherently constrained that way; my two gas bikes get about 120 and 180 miles from a tank of gas, and even the huge long-range touring bikes don't usually get more than 300. Maximizing energy density is critical, and no matter the source, you're going to be stopping to recharge/refuel more often. What electric motorcycles really need to take off is widespread HVDC charging. Part of the reason bikes still charge slowly is because carrying around the big heavy inverter is, as with fuel, much more constrained by its weight and size than on a car. By moving that off the vehicle and putting DC directly into the packs, you could gain the charging speed benefits without the weight penalty. (Or, of course, we could just do my favorite thing and make fuel cell motorcycles that run on ethanol, getting better range than a gas bike from less fuel) What's the current status of HVDC adoption?
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Jul 3, 2018 07:21
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1000 miles a day or 250 miles without a break is far from my requirement. Zeros biggest battery option is now 18 kWh. If I could charge that at 1C, I'd be happy. With some ugly aftermarket stuff, you can get 10 kW from public chargers. Or you can get their official 6 kW charging option instead of the biggest battery, so 14.4 kWh. They've changed their tune on charging once (turns out it WILL degrade of you keep it topped up at all times), hopefully they will do so again and get active cooled DC. 25 kWh and 50 kW charging would be perfectly tourable with more range on one tank than many gas bikes and charging rates in terms of range similar to Tesla. Sagebrush posted:
Energica has CCS, but only 11 kWh battery so it's probably far from 50 kW.
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Jul 3, 2018 07:45
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It's absolutely silly because the bottleneck to producing more cars has almost never been the cycle time of process robots. What is the bottleneck usually?
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Jul 3, 2018 12:22
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eeenmachine posted:The article is mostly just reporting what Elon said himself on the earnings call. Can anyone find an article saying any other manufacturer thinks they can mass produce packs at a lower cost in the next few years? Nissan is the only manufacturer who has been making packs close to as long and while I can't find specific numbers they are charging $230/kWh to replace a Leaf pack (who knows if they are looking to profit off replacements or if that is close to their costs). Average OEM gross margins on captive parts are extremely high, so that $230/kWh is nowhere near their costs. silence_kit posted:What is the bottleneck usually? Manual processes. This is wildly simplified but: The key to a good manufacturing process is running the physical line at a synchronized rate. Each process has a designated area and a planned time for execution and these synchronize to avoid bottlenecks. Most processes, even in a Tesla factory, are performed by humans. Why? Humans are flexible. We'll get to that in a minute. Process robots are really good at things like laser welding for seams and spot welds, and for doing very high precision tasks like gluing a windshield in to a frame. Let's say you have a a laser welding robot that makes five welds that take a total of 360 seconds. It's preceded by a manual process and followed by a manual process. We now spend an inordinate amount of time, effort, and money to make the robot make five welds. Let's pretend we are super duper clever and we cut that time by a factor of 3 to 120 seconds. Elon would be so proud! Except for the fact that the manual process that precedes it takes 360 seconds, so even though the robot is now three times faster, we can still only feed the process at a rate of 1 input every 360 seconds. The robot now finishes its task early and waits. If we take time out of one process, we have to take time out of every process or be able to redistribute waste to realize significant velocity benefits. OK, you may say - why not replace that manual process with a robot? The main reason is that people are dextrous and configurable. What if instead of doing steps A B C sequenced in a larger process I want to break them out? What if I want to move from using T10 screws to spring clips in a midcycle refresh? It's really easy to retrain people to do this and to get hand tools to support them. If you configured a robot to screw stuff in using T10 screws, it's a lot more effort to reconfigure it to do something else. Robots are getting more configurable, but the more velocity you want out of a robot the more specialized it is. The other major bottleneck is suppliers and sequencing/metering processes to feed the line. If you ramp up production by increasing velocity, you also have to increase the velocity of most of the support processes, which can be more difficult. There is a ceiling to efficient production on any given line.
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Jul 3, 2018 12:43
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eeenmachine posted:The article is mostly just reporting what Elon said himself on the earnings call. Can anyone find an article saying any other manufacturer thinks they can mass produce packs at a lower cost in the next few years? Nissan is the only manufacturer who has been making packs close to as long and while I can't find specific numbers they are charging $230/kWh to replace a Leaf pack (who knows if they are looking to profit off replacements or if that is close to their costs). Yes, as is InsideEVs. (Also, Clean Technica has absolutely nothing to do with us, they just used “Technica” in their name.)
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Jul 3, 2018 14:20
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eeenmachine posted:Any iPace owners in the thread yet? I'd trade my X for one in a second if it could access the supercharger network. AFAIK deliveries haven’t even started yet.
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Jul 3, 2018 14:21
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bawfuls posted:Why would you care about fast charge rates on an electric motorcycle? For any given roadgoing vehicle with X range, there will be someone who wants to use it to go X+50, 2X, or as far as they can get in a day. Anybody who wants to exceed one charge worth of range has very good reason to care about fast charging. This can be dismissed if the vehicle is particularly built for commuter/local delivery type roles where a reasonable response to someone wanting to drive it for hours is "are you nuts?" but if it's either comfortable or fun someone's going to want to take it on a road trip.
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Jul 3, 2018 14:49
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I love my car. It's a 2014 WRX hatch. We barely ever drive it, maybe 24k miles on it. Maybe 2k miles a year? But I still have an irrational lust for the I-Pace. Looks like an awesome car. Maybe one day when we drive a bit more, but for now I guess I just get to drool.
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Jul 3, 2018 16:01
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wolrah posted:This can be dismissed if the vehicle is particularly built for commuter/local delivery type roles where a reasonable response to someone wanting to drive it for hours is "are you nuts?" but if it's either comfortable or fun someone's going to want to take it on a road trip. Local delivery seems like a case that wants a lot if range, and/or fast chargers. I can imagine 7-8 hours of use in a day. The example that Tesla used to use for their faster home charger was a real estate agent, though doing 300km in city streets in a day sounds like grounds for psychiatric hospitalization.
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Jul 3, 2018 16:35
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having my autonomous vehicle drive into its roomba charging dock
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Jul 3, 2018 16:38
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I was driving on a backroad in Indiana last week and got stuck behind a Tesla roadster for a bit. Just reminded me of what a cool car that was
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Jul 3, 2018 17:12
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Subjunctive posted:Local delivery seems like a case that wants a lot if range, and/or fast chargers. I can imagine 7-8 hours of use in a day. I've always figured that a purpose-built EV local delivery vehicle designed for longer range use (like running all over a metro area) would go with a swappable battery rather than delaying even for fast charge levels of time. Keep a spare or two charged up at a "home base" location and you're good. Also many really don't need that much range. The average USPS LLV drives a 21 mile route for example. Commercial delivery vendors like UPS and FedEx don't publish this information but the general conclusion on the internet seems to be 100-150 miles average. For anything being used on these sorts of routes as long as the range beats the route length then it just needs to be able to recharge overnight for everything to be fine.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:11
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wolrah posted:For anything being used on these sorts of routes as long as the range beats the route length then it just needs to be able to recharge overnight for everything to be fine. I agree, but I didn’t think we were talking about 150 mike range for these motorcycles. FedEx and USPS also have dense, optimized routes, which I don’t think is as much the case for courier services.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:20
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Genderfluent posted:I was driving on a backroad in Indiana last week and got stuck behind a Tesla roadster for a bit. Just reminded me of what a cool car that was Lotus does make a real cool car yep
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Jul 3, 2018 18:55
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canyoneer posted:having my autonomous vehicle drive into its roomba charging dock Tesla's working on their creepy snake charger for this very thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI
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Jul 3, 2018 19:07
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Ola posted:Energica has CCS, but only 11 kWh battery so it's probably far from 50 kW. Zero had CHAdeMO as an option on a 2012 DS bike of sorts and took it away after they discovered a chunk of HVDC chargers in CA said they adopted the CHAdeMO standard but it was actually CCS with the appropriate communications protocol. Turns out that CHAdeMO requires you to be able to drop to a DC voltage of 100 volts or so and the manufacturers of cheap HVDC units went  and the 115-something-Volt packs on the Zeros wouldn’t charge (CCS iirc starts at like 200 volts so they started there). Zero was testing with some good ABB units or something high quality while the majority of installs were cheaper poo poo.Its the only way the X-chassis folks like myself can get a proper fast charge so it especially hurts. FWIW i was futzing with the FXS’s main bike board in a telnet session and saw a flag listed for CHAdeMO charging input. Zero had really intended it but I’m guessing they didn’t want to deal with angry customers shouting at them because they went to the one poo poo-tastic charger in town.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:22
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First commute in the Outlander netted 27 miles with 6 to spare when I got home full electric. Now this was me taking the most direct route to work through town instead of the interstate and parking in a covered garage, drove both ways with no air window down was comfortable enough.
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Jul 4, 2018 01:17
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That's basically no margin for error without A/C though
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Jul 4, 2018 01:24
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Tsk tsk, shoulda got a Pacifica
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Jul 4, 2018 01:34
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Meh I was only testing for the fun of it my wife will be driving it mainly and her commute is 7 miles round trip. Pacifica also would of been a way tighter fit in our garage.
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Jul 4, 2018 01:45
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Where’s my BEV Miata Gitlin.
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Jul 9, 2018 18:52
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Agronox posted:Where’s my BEV Miata Gitlin. I wouldn’t expect one before 2030! Mazda is pretty far behind the BEV curve because their ICE fleet efficiency is so good.
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Jul 10, 2018 23:46
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Mazda is still working on an electric motor with the reliability of their rotary engines.
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Jul 10, 2018 23:52
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Platystemon posted:Mazda is still working on an electric motor with the reliability of their rotary engines. Weren't the NA rotaries actually relatively reliable compared to contemporary piston engines due to their simplicity and minimal vibration? I always had the understanding that the "boost in, apex seals out" graphic had a lot of truth to it that it was the increased chamber pressure that really caused problems. Of course there was also the crazy vacuum control system on the twin turbos as well which didn't help the situation.
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Jul 11, 2018 00:18
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wolrah posted:Weren't the NA rotaries actually relatively reliable compared to contemporary piston engines due to their simplicity and minimal vibration? Yes. The biggest issue has been owners not ckecking the oil dip stick.
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Jul 11, 2018 00:31
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13B-MSP : 23mpg/75mpq
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Jul 11, 2018 00:32
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