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I ask again is it even murder ? I would say it was justified
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Jul 3, 2018 18:36
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Basebf555 posted:I think there's a distinction to be made here between "attempted murder" and "considered attempting murder". To me considering attempting murder would be sitting in a chair somewhere pondering if maybe killing the child of your best friends because you had a spooky dream might be a good idea. When you stand over him while he's sleeping and ignite your weapon, that goes into attempt territory. I'm reasonably confident a jury would agree.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:37
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euphronius posted:I ask again is it even murder ? I would say it was justified What about it was justified? What had Ben done to deserve being murdered? He was a Jedi student who had possibly been corrupted by a Sith, nothing more nothing less. No Mods No Masters posted:To me considering attempting murder would be sitting in a chair somewhere pondering if maybe killing the child of your best friends because you had a spooky dream might be a good idea. When you stand over him while he's sleeping and ignite your weapon, that goes into attempt territory. I'm reasonably confident a jury would agree. If you stand over someone with your weapon, considering whether or not to kill them, and then decide not to(and in fact take no action to do so), that's not attempted murder. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jul 3, 2018 |
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Jul 3, 2018 18:39
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euphronius posted:I ask again is it even murder ? I would say it was justified Luke tried to kill a student of his cult training camp because the voices in his head told him to.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:42
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Schwarzwald posted:Luke tried to kill a student of his cult training camp because the voices in his head told him to. Are you saying force premonition is fake in Star Wars ?
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Jul 3, 2018 18:43
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To say he took no action seems kind of BS to me. He was standing there thinking about it (or arguably getting ready to do it) and then Ben woke up and interrupted him. Conveniently, Ben waking up also gives Luke an excuse to say he never really meant to do it, and people just take him on his word because ????????. The entire situation is loving bonkers and it comes down to the script being horrible I guess, but to me Luke was waaaaaaay over the line of what an innocent person with no intent to commit murder would ever do.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:44
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Basebf555 posted:I think there's a distinction to be made here between "attempted murder" and "considered attempting murder". It is impossible to commit a crime without actus reus.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:44
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No Mods No Masters posted:To say he took no action seems kind of BS to me. He was standing there thinking about it (or arguably getting ready to do it) and then Ben woke up and interrupted him. Conveniently, Ben waking up also gives Luke an excuse to say he never really meant to do it, and people just take him on his word because ????????. The entire situation is loving bonkers and it comes down to the script being horrible I guess, but to me Luke was waaaaaaay over the line of what an innocent person with no intent to commit murder would ever do. Oh yes, he's waaaay over the line and like I said, Ben's reaction is justified. But I don't think it makes Luke an irredeemable monster, or invalidates what happened 30 years ago. If the prequels showed us anything, it's that even the most veteran, capable Jedi are still susceptible to the dark side.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:50
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Basebf555 posted:Oh yes, he's waaaay over the line and like I said, Ben's reaction is justified. But I don't think it makes Luke an irredeemable monster, or invalidates what happened 30 years ago. If the prequels showed us anything, it's that even the most veteran, capable Jedi are still susceptible to the dark side. It's actually fairly bleak, since it suggests that you only have to gently caress up for a fraction of a second. Of course, there may be more to it than that, both before and after, but we aren't shown it at all.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:53
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Basebf555 posted:If you stand over someone with your weapon, considering whether or not to kill them, and then decide not to(and in fact take no action to do so), that's not attempted murder. "Sec. 8-4. Attempt. (a) Elements of the Offense. A person commits an attempt when, with intent to commit a specific offense, he does any act which constitutes a substantial step toward the commission of that offense." https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/attempted-murder/ Luke enters Ben's room, stands over his sleeping body, and arms and readies a weapon. That is an attempt at murder. Even if Luke stopped himself before he went through with it (which I don't think is clear from the film -- Luke hesitated, but he still may have gone through with it if Ben hadn't woken then) that still doesn't change the fact that he legally made such an attempt.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:53
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Schwarzwald posted:"Sec. 8-4. Attempt. (a) Elements of the Offense. A person commits an attempt when, with intent to commit a specific offense, he does any act which constitutes a substantial step toward the commission of that offense." Substantial step is all over the place and out of step with world wide legal opinion on attempt
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Jul 3, 2018 18:55
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Basebf555 posted:Oh yes, he's waaaay over the line and like I said, Ben's reaction is justified. But I don't think it makes Luke an irredeemable monster, or invalidates what happened 30 years ago. If the prequels showed us anything, it's that even the most veteran, capable Jedi are still susceptible to the dark side. For me, if Luke's actions were otherwise responsible I think I could forgive one moment of (contrived and extreme) indiscretion. But everything he does subsequently is also really reprehensible. He himself seems to feel and admit terrible guilt, but he doesn't turn himself in to let the law he supposedly upholds decide whether what he did was wrong or not in some kind of objective fashion. He doesn't bother to tell Han and Leia anything, which is just absurdly irresponsible and evil. He never really makes amends for any of this other than committing a quasi heroic suicide I guess.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:56
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Schwarzwald posted:"Sec. 8-4. Attempt. (a) Elements of the Offense. A person commits an attempt when, with intent to commit a specific offense, he does any act which constitutes a substantial step toward the commission of that offense." To establish this, you would need to prove mens rea beyond a reasonable doubt; that is, the burden would be on the prosecution to prove that he entered the room with the intent to kill. In a more practical note, posting that definition without any case law to establish how it is interpreted is meaningless.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:57
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Regardless of attempt jurisprudence on substantial step , luke abandoned any attempt, if one existed.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:58
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No Mods No Masters posted:He doesn't bother to tell Han and Leia anything, which is just absurdly irresponsible and evil. Honestly this part I never even thought about until this discussion, and it's a good point. There's really no explaining why he never said anything to Han or Leia, other than the fact that he's a shithead.
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Jul 3, 2018 18:59
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On the difficulty of proving mens rea:quote:There must be more than merely preparatory acts and, although the defendant may threaten death, this may not provide convincing evidence of an intention to kill unless the words are accompanied by relevant action, e.g. finding and picking up a weapon and making serious use of it, or making a serious and sustained physical attack without a weapon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_murder#Proof_of_mens_rea As near as I can tell, unless you actually go ahead with the attack, or have provided ample proof of your intention to use a weapon in your possession specifically for the purpose of killing the alleged victim in writing, prosecuting attempted murder is nearly impossible. e: the same wikipedia page goes into detail in the American context: quote:In the United States, attempted murder is an inchoate crime. A conviction for attempted murder requires a demonstration of an intent to murder, meaning that the perpetrator either tried to murder and failed (e.g. attempted to shoot the victim and missed or shot the victim and the victim survived) or took a substantial step towards committing a murder (e.g. purchasing a gun or other deadly weapon and writing about his intent to kill). Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jul 3, 2018 |
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Jul 3, 2018 19:04
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If he swung and missed we’d be getting somewhere.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:05
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euphronius posted:If he swung and missed we’d be getting somewhere. It would be a start, but only that. In Canada, he could have swung and taken off an arm and the prosecution would still have work to do: quote:The mens rea required for attempted murder is that there must be a specific "intent to kill", not simply an intention to harm with consequences that could have led to death. Nor is it enough that he knows his actions are likely to cause death or was reckless to the possible consequences. There must be subjective foresight of the consequences of the accused's conduct.[1] https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Law/Offences/Attempted_Murder
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Jul 3, 2018 19:08
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Maybe Rian Johnson hates the Luke character so he wrote him terribly as a joke..?
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Jul 3, 2018 19:08
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Hodgepodge posted:On the difficulty of proving mens rea: To be fair(and I know I'm the one saying it's not attempted murder), in this instance we don't really have to worry about mens rea because Luke himself is acknowledging that he went in there intending to kill Ben. He just had a change of heart before acting on it.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:10
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Luke can see the future all. It’s just, that future happened because of him. The Force does some hosed up poo poo to create balance.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:12
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Basebf555 posted:To be fair(and I know I'm the one saying it's not attempted murder), in this instance we don't really have to worry about mens rea because Luke himself is acknowledging that he went in there intending to kill Ben. He just had a change of heart before acting on it. Didn't he say he went in there to look into his heart, and then drew his lightsaber in a reflexive response to what he saw? That's not the same thing as going in there intending to kill.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:14
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Hodgepodge posted:Didn't he say he went in there to look into his heart, and then drew his lightsaber in a reflexive response to what he saw? That's not the same thing as going in there intending to kill. His mind, but yes. He has magical powers. It’s basically a Minority Report situation.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:15
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Basebf555 posted:To be fair(and I know I'm the one saying it's not attempted murder), in this instance we don't really have to worry about mens rea because Luke himself is acknowledging that he went in there intending to kill Ben. He just had a change of heart before acting on it. That's not what happens at all; he goes to Ben to try to get a read on the darkness he'd been sensing during training
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Jul 3, 2018 19:16
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It must be nice to be Luke Skywalker, you can murder anyone you want and say it was justified by magical visions only you can see
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Jul 3, 2018 19:16
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No Mods No Masters posted:It must be nice to be Luke Skywalker, you can murder anyone you want and say it was justified by magical visions only you can see Yes. Funnily they turned out to be correct so.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:17
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The force is real
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Jul 3, 2018 19:17
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A force vision is also indistinguishable from having a schizophrenic hallucination, and considering Luke's subsequent insane actions I'm going to say we can't rule that possibility out
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Jul 3, 2018 19:17
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CelticPredator posted:His mind, but yes. He has magical powers. It's not what he saw that matters, legally. It's the fact that he didn't enter the room intending to kill. Like, what happens is he enters the room intending to work out his feelings about the kid. For a second, he considers murder, but doesn't go ahead with it. The scenario the prosecution would want to prove is that he went in there specifically to kill Ben, and was in the process of striking to kill (NOT striking for any lesser purpose, or about to strike; those would not cut it in court) when Ben stopped him. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jul 3, 2018 |
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Jul 3, 2018 19:18
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No Mods No Masters posted:It must be nice to be Luke Skywalker, you can murder anyone you want and say it was justified by magical visions only you can see Don’t be too hard on ST Luke. He’s stuck in a lovely script.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:18
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Sure, Luke would never get convicted at court. The statute of limitations ran out a long time ago, the crime happened in a jurisdiction far, far away, and at any rate he's a war hero. But when I'm shown Luke enter Ben's room, stand over Ben's sleeping body, arm and ready his weapon, and hear Luke say "killing him seemed like a good idea at the time," I'm satisfied that Luke is making an attempt at murder. I guess we can agree to disagree.  euphronius posted:Are you saying force premonition is fake in Star Wars ? Has Anakin returned to free the slaves?
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Jul 3, 2018 19:23
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No one can convict Luke because he can just Jedi Mind change the judges and jury to let him go.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:26
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I remember the Dark Empire comic. Luke turned to the dark side, became the new apprentice of Palpatine's clone, took command of the Imperial forces and led the Empire in its war against his former friends. Then he turns back and they let him go back to being the leader of the Jedi and continue to defer to him for years afterwards. To the point where one of his students goes over to the dark side (fairly consistent within the EU that Luke is actually a pretty poo poo teacher, at least  ) and steals the SUN CRUSHER (a superweapon which can CRUSH SUNS) then uses it to blow up an Imperial planet and kill millions of people and when he turns himself in, the senate goes, "Oh, go and let Luke decide what to do with you, he's a pretty good judge of character."Like, imagine if the Mossad guys had caught Adolf Eichmann then taken him to Tel Aviv and they told him, "Oh, alright, we'll ship you back to Berlin and let Konrad Adenauer decide what to do with you." Of course, we know for a fact that Rian Johnson was and is a fan of the Expanded Universe so Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jul 3, 2018 |
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Jul 3, 2018 19:26
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Schwarzwald posted:Sure, Luke would never get convicted at court. The statute of limitations ran out a long time ago, the crime happened in a jurisdiction far, far away, and at any rate he's a war hero. We're using legal standards because legal terminology is being used. You feel that he attempted murder, but that is something with a definition. Examining that definition, we find that you are objectively incorrect; the scenario described would not be prosectuted as attempted murder because it does not fit the definition of that crime. Note that this does not mean that he is not guilty of another offense.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:26
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For the Luke did nothing wrong crowd, why then did he go into exile? Abandoning the republic, the Jedi, family and friends, the kid in your care who you just colossally hosed up mentally, etc. becomes even more reprehensible if there was basically no reason for him to do so.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:29
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Luke will also use this in the court to show that yes, Ben Solo is a monster and must die. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOSCASqLsE
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Jul 3, 2018 19:29
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Anakin did return to free mom. Rip.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:30
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No Mods No Masters posted:For the Luke did nothing wrong crowd, why then did he go into exile? Abandoning the republic, the Jedi, family and friends, the kid in your care who you just colossally hosed up mentally, etc. becomes even more reprehensible if there was basically no reason for him to do so. Because he created Kylo Ren
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Jul 3, 2018 19:30
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No Mods No Masters posted:For the Luke did nothing wrong crowd, why then did he go into exile? Abandoning the republic, the Jedi, family and friends, the kid in your care who you just colossally hosed up mentally, etc. becomes even more reprehensible if there was basically no reason for him to do so. Not guilty of attempted murder is not the same thing as a) not guilty of a serious crime, or, b) not having seriously hosed up and knowing it.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:31
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No Mods No Masters posted:For the Luke did nothing wrong crowd, why then did he go into exile? Abandoning the republic, the Jedi, family and friends, the kid in your care who you just colossally hosed up mentally, etc. becomes even more reprehensible if there was basically no reason for him to do so. Luke is a failure and did everything wrong. That’s the point of the movie. That’s what, to me, makes his character the strongest. He failed by trying to do what he felt was right and channeled the dark side. Like Luke had done before. But as Luke did before, he realized his error and came to his senses. But it was too late.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:31
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