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ruddiger posted:Pictured: A character showing remorse and humility to the person he wronged. Yeah he doesn’t. But he also knows he hosed up and faces it. He admits he failed. But he knows that Ben is completely lost and hopeless. He’s taunting him to give the Resistance time to escape. He was right and Ben is a poo poo. He shouldn’t have tried to kill him, but he also wasn’t off base that he’s a monster.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:09
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Bruceski posted:the final fight against Vader has a lot of holding himself back. [VIDEO] Particularly 3 minutes in when Leia is threatened, I forgot how brutal the beatdown is afterward. That's one of my favorite parts of the movie because of the way the score is so ominous and bassy whild Vader is talking to him and swells and gets more and more triumphant as Luke flips out on him more right up until he cuts Vader's hand off. It's like flawless use of a soundtrack to get you to root for someone and then be like "wait a second...." in quick succession at the same time Luke realizes what he's doing.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:13
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CelticPredator posted:Yeah he doesn’t. But he also knows he hosed up and faces it. He admits he failed. But he knows that Ben is completely lost and hopeless. He’s taunting him to give the Resistance time to escape. Hahaha What you're saying is that it was wrong of Luke to try to kill Ben, but that someone ought to. Because he opposes the Republic and is thus a monster. Again, why is it good that the Resistance are saved so that they can try to restore a corrupt government? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jul 5, 2018 |
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Jul 5, 2018 23:17
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CelticPredator posted:Yeah he doesn’t. But he also knows he hosed up and faces it. He admits he failed. But he knows that Ben is completely lost and hopeless. He’s taunting him to give the Resistance time to escape. Ben might not be completely lost. He hasn’t been portrayed as an irredeemable poo poo like ‘Sheev’. Also, not to be a dick, but you seem impressed with basic characterization and Writing 101 stuff.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:35
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Rey certainly thought he was redeemable
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Jul 5, 2018 23:39
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Yeah, Luke knows that HE can't save Ben. By the end, I don't think he feels that nobody can
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Jul 5, 2018 23:42
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jivjov posted:Yeah, Luke knows that HE can't save Ben. By the end, I don't think he feels that nobody can What you're avoiding is that Kylo Ren doesn't need to be saved. He's the one who needs to save Rey from the evil Republic and the Jedi.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:44
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I forget but the way Last Jedi ends, what is Ben's like, goal now? Originally he wanted the map to the temple to find Luke Skywalker and such but now that that's over and one with but he still took over the First Order, like, does he even give a poo poo about ruling the galaxy or anything like that? I still hope for maximum nerd rage Episode IX jumps ahead like ten or twenty years and barely even has any of the previous characters in it.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:47
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His goal is to kill snoke and take over.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:48
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Ben can work on remaking the First Order/the galaxy in the way he wants to. Killing off the past, making everything the way HE wants. He's like an even less stable Episode 2 Anakin. "Everyone should be MADE to agree"
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Jul 5, 2018 23:52
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jivjov posted:Ben can work on remaking the First Order/the galaxy in the way he wants to. Killing off the past, making everything the way HE wants. Sounds good and heroic.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:58
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sponges posted:Ben might not be completely lost. He hasn’t been portrayed as an irredeemable poo poo like ‘Sheev’. Sometimes the simplest poo poo just works perfectly. People think that “more complex” equals better, when that isn’t always the case.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:59
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CelticPredator posted:It’s so real to me. He embraces his mistakes and in turn saves the Resistance and sets off a chain reaction spark for what he did, and he didn’t use a single bit of violence. Utter nonsense. Luke’s unambiguously inciting violence, calling on various ex-Alliance worlds to unite and declare war on the New Order.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:05
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No Mods No Masters posted:Who is someone who's a good analog to Luke, but in our world? A hero in his time, still lionized by some- who had just one little moment of weakness, involving child abuse and covering up child abuse? Yeah man because Star Wars fans totally wanted to see Luke become analogous to a child rapist right?
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Jul 6, 2018 00:05
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Neo Rasa posted:I forget but the way Last Jedi ends, what is Ben's like, goal now? Originally he wanted the map to the temple to find Luke Skywalker and such but now that that's over and one with but he still took over the First Order, like, does he even give a poo poo about ruling the galaxy or anything like that? Destructive nihilism. "Everything sucks, tear it down" as opposed to Luke's "everything sucks, let it die."
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Jul 6, 2018 00:09
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What you're avoiding is that Kylo Ren doesn't need to be saved. He's the one who needs to save Rey from the evil Republic and the Jedi. He can only do that by reforming the Trade Federation, who remain the only moral faction we've ever seen in the series.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:10
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Bruceski posted:Destructive nihilism. "Everything sucks, tear it down" Revolutions aren't nihilism.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:10
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Sounds good and heroic. Man, you must absolutely love dictatorships
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Jul 6, 2018 00:15
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Slutitution posted:Yeah man because Star Wars fans totally wanted to see Luke become analogous to a child rapist right? Actually, JoePa retired for the good of the program, like a hero would, so he's actually a hero, who heroically overcame his moment of weakness
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Jul 6, 2018 00:15
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Revolutions aren't nihilism. The good ones are.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:18
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So are we to infer that Luke was just too lazy to physically confront Kylo? Hence the Force Projection thing?
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Jul 6, 2018 00:18
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Neo Rasa posted:I forget but the way Last Jedi ends, what is Ben's like, goal now? Originally he wanted the map to the temple to find Luke Skywalker and such but now that that's over and one with but he still took over the First Order, like, does he even give a poo poo about ruling the galaxy or anything like that? At the end of TLJ, Kylo is pretending to be the heir to Snoke while actually striving to destroy the First Order from the inside, creating a New Order based on Vader’s teachings. At the same time, he is continuing Vader’s work of putting down feudalist rebellions, preventing the restoration of the Republic. He hopes to eventually convince Rey to work with him. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 00:19
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Yaws posted:So are we to infer that Luke was just too lazy to physically confront Kylo? Hence the Force Projection thing? He had no way of getting there physically. Rey was gone, his X-Wing was sunken and in pieces
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Jul 6, 2018 00:20
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jivjov posted:Man, you must absolutely love dictatorships Of the proletariat.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:21
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If Luke were actually there he would've been blown to bits by AT-M6 fire.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:22
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Yaws posted:So are we to infer that Luke was just too lazy to physically confront Kylo? Hence the Force Projection thing? Luke didn’t want to incite any violence towards Kylo Ren, at that time. He’s a character who acts with his gut but always chooses the pacifist choice in the end.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:23
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Revolutions aren't nihilism. But they're so exhausting
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Jul 6, 2018 00:26
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CelticPredator posted:Luke didn’t want to incite any violence towards Kylo Ren, at that time. He’s a character who acts with his gut but always chooses the pacifist choice in the end. That’s not pacifism. If the Pope says all good Catholic nations should join in holy war against some ‘evil’ country, that’s the opposite of pacifism. Even though he’s ‘just talking.’
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Jul 6, 2018 00:26
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CelticPredator posted:Luke didn’t want to incite any violence towards Kylo Ren, at that time. He’s a character who acts with his gut but always chooses the pacifist choice in the end. Do you even understand what you're arguing? Protecting a military movement so that it can rebuild and launch a rebellion isn't non-violence. It was so real to me when Luke practiced non-violence by furthering military strategy. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 00:27
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pacifism is a much more complex concept than not killing pepl
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Jul 6, 2018 00:44
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I'm pretty sure that Kylo is a bad guy because he blew up a poo poo-ton of planets. Also, Luke proved that all his "end the cycle" stuff was bullshit. Kylo could have destroyed the rebels then and there, but he instead got caught up playing Skywalker drama. The film's ultimate statement on the darkside is that it doesn't really have anything of substance to it at all. That's the point of the cave scene. The darkside is nothing more but an endless reflection of the individual. Kylo isn't a revolutionary, he's a pissed off kid. Snoke isn't some space antichrist, he's just some rear end in a top hat who likes being in charge. It's not really new to Star Wars. The whole revelation of the Emperor in the prequels is that he just some petty rear end in a top hat who wanted power, the Sith's revenger was always just a means to an end. Vader kills children because he's mad that some people killed his mom, but Kenobi successfully hides his son on Tatooine for nearly two decades because at the end of the day, Vader is never coming back down to free Jabba's sex slaves. Darkside wielders are full of poo poo. EDIT: Sorry my mistake, Kylo is the bad guy because he was complicit in blowing up a bunch of planets. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 01:14
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Kylo didn't blow up the planets, Hux did.
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Jul 6, 2018 01:16
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All the justifications trying to say Luke wasn't out of character in his possibly attempted murder of Ben are the same kind of cynicism that underlines the whole sequel trilogy. Defenders who say Luke was always angry and impulsive seem to ignore his whole character arc was about growing beyond that culminating in his ultimate rejection of anger/hate etc. the message is apparently that no one really changes or grows and Anakin's redemption was meaningless, as he would have undoubtably started blowing up planets and choking subordinate officers had he lived. Same with Han becoming an irresponsible selfish criminal again despite spending a trilogy becoming the opposite of that.
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Jul 6, 2018 01:17
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Kylo passively accepted it which is pretty close to being culpable. He could have stopped it.
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Jul 6, 2018 01:18
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Kylo didn’t blow up any planets. He wasn’t even nearby when it happened. Your Star Wars take is bizarrely cynical. Everyone is just ‘apolitically’ self-interested. Leia’s just some rear end in a top hat who wants power, Snoke’s just some rear end in a top hat who wants power, etc.
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Jul 6, 2018 01:18
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Timeless Appeal posted:Kylo isn't a revolutionary
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Jul 6, 2018 01:25
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Kylo's a monster for sure, but he was systematically failed by his teacher, who abused him, his parents, who were apparently oblivious to his being abused despite what must have been pretty obvious warning signs, and his government, which likewise didn't seem to care about prosecuting his abuser (and in fact ends up elevating him to the status of hero despite the truth about the abuse coming to light)
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Jul 6, 2018 01:34
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No Mods No Masters posted:Kylo's a monster for sure, but he was systematically failed by his teacher, who abused him, his parents, who were apparently oblivious to his being abused despite what must have been pretty obvious warning signs, and his government, which likewise didn't seem to care about prosecuting his abuser (and in fact ends up elevating him to the status of hero despite the truth about the abuse coming to light) Word. If we're to glean anything worthwhile from the ST (an almost fruitless task) it's Kylo Ren. He's the only character that's even remotely interesting. Or maybe I just have a crush on Adam Driver
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Jul 6, 2018 01:49
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No Mods No Masters posted:Kylo's a monster for sure, but he was systematically failed by his teacher, who abused him, his parents, who were apparently oblivious to his being abused despite what must have been pretty obvious warning signs, and his government, which likewise didn't seem to care about prosecuting his abuser (and in fact ends up elevating him to the status of hero despite the truth about the abuse coming to light) This is such a strange take. Besides one instance which I don’t know if I’d even call abuse (the hut scene) where do you get that Luke abused Ben?
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Jul 6, 2018 01:50
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Irony dictates that because Luke repeatedly says "amazing, everything you just said was wrong," this will also prove true of everything he says.
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Jul 6, 2018 01:53
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