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Kylo Ren seems to have joined the First Order with the intention of using it to complete his interpretation of the ideological aims of Darth Vader. His time as Snoke's subordinate involved a lot of atrocities, such as the murder of his fellow Jedi students and the extermination of the village on Jakku. Even if he was an opponent of Starkiller the way Vader may have been an opponent of the Death Star, he's got a lot to answer for. The preceding movies never got to showing what Vader would do with ultimate authority. Would he bring justice at the end of a laser sword like he said he would? Or would he just be like any other tyrant? He gave up on his ambition to usurp the Emperor when he gave his life to save Luke. But his grandson actually achieved it, because the mask he wore was just a mask rather than a medical apparatus. Episode IX is poised to present an answer to the riddle that Star Wars has been dancing around since 1980, whether a third option superior to Republic and Empire can be achieved by mercilessness and wrath. I mean, I don't expect it to present a decisive answer. And if it does answer it, I don't expect it to come down in favor of the slaughter of innocents for any cause. But, y'know.
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Jul 6, 2018 02:04
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CelticPredator posted:This is such a strange take. Besides one instance which I don’t know if I’d even call abuse (the hut scene) where do you get that Luke abused Ben? Why did Ben Solo fall to the darkside? Because Luke attempted to kill him? Was he destined to because of his grandpap?
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Jul 6, 2018 02:07
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The only thing I remember Anakin ever expressing regret at not finishing is Kylo's uncle, C-3PO
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Jul 6, 2018 02:17
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Yaws posted:Why did Ben Solo fall to the darkside? Because Luke attempted to kill him? Was he destined to because of his grandpap? When you got neglectful parents, plus extreme insecurity and a nasty old man grooming this boy to be an evil monster like his grandfather, you end up with a pretty messed up kid.
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Jul 6, 2018 02:17
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CelticPredator posted:When you got neglectful parents, plus extreme insecurity and a nasty old man grooming this boy to be an evil monster like his grandfather, you end up with a pretty messed up kid. luke skywalker is a nasty old man i agree
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Jul 6, 2018 02:28
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CelticPredator posted:a nasty old man grooming this boy to be an evil monster like his grandfather  , luke should have been sent to space prison
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Jul 6, 2018 02:29
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Weirdos.
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Jul 6, 2018 02:30
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Bongo Bill posted:Kylo Ren seems to have joined the First Order with the intention of using it to complete his interpretation of the ideological aims of Darth Vader. His time as Snoke's subordinate involved a lot of atrocities, such as the murder of his fellow Jedi students and the extermination of the village on Jakku. The worst thing Kylo ever does is at the very start of his first film, which is when he executes the villagers for being secretly in league with the Resistance and, y’know, firing at his troops. This is at the beginning of Kylo’s arc, and is fairly tame by Star Wars standards. Obi-wan Kenobi executed Seperatist prisoners in Episode 3, and nobody cared because he was a ‘good guy’. It’s weird that, after all this time, people are still confused by Snoke. It’s actually very clear, contrary to what Timeless says, that Snoke is a true believer - an actual Force-worshipping fundamentalist who is in it for religious reasons. Unlike Palpatine, who ultimately just wanted power and saw Anakin as a means to that end, Snoke’s sole concern is creating (and controlling) a new Darth Vader, and eliminating the Jedi. This is why he ultimately doesn’t care about anything but killing Skywalker. Snoke thought Skywalker would be the one to rise up and try to oppose the will of God. This utter devotion to the Force is why Kylo goes to Snoke in the first place. But Kylo, of course, soon realizes Snoke was his true enemy all along, and kills him. So now that arc is over. The end of TLJ is bizarrely similar to that of Transformers 3. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 02:42
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ungulateman posted:luke skywalker is a nasty old man i agree He was training a new generation of child soldiers and thought "they weren't doing it right" instead of not realizing they shouldn't have been doing it at all. Question for jivjov or anyone else familiar with the eu, did any other planets beside Naboo have children occupy positions in government?
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Jul 6, 2018 03:17
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Bongo Bill posted:The preceding movies never got to showing what Vader would do with ultimate authority. Would he bring justice at the end of a laser sword like he said he would? Or would he just be like any other tyrant? It would definitely be the latter. One of the central themes of Star Wars is that you can't merely "dabble" in evil. No matter how noble your intentions or original goals are opening the door a crack to the dark side will always lead to ripping the whole door out of the frame. Dooku thought he could save the Republic and destroy the Sith by flirting with evil and in the end became the most useful servant of magic space Hitler and enabler of the same corrupt and malevolent big corporations he originally saw as the problem. "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" is completely true in this context. Anakin's arc in RotS is that of an addict telling everyone that he can stop whenever he wants to, but the only real way to not be consumed by the dark side is to go to metaphorical rehab and get off the bad juju entirely. Which is exactly what Luke spends the latter half of RotJ convincing him to do. RotS is essentially a long series of Anakin saying "I'll just kill this next thing and everything will be peachy" but there is always one more thing to kill, one more thing to oppress, one more line to cross, until all that's left are things he hates and nothing worth protecting. By ANH we see the ultimate result of the Dark Side. Vader is a man who only cares about being able to hurt things, who takes relish in causing suffering, and does nothing to help (and indeed further harms) the kind of people he thought the Dark Side would help him protect in the first place.
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Jul 6, 2018 04:03
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A lot of mid-rim colony world cultures like Naboo (and the Nemoidians for that matter) are descended from older Core-World cultures. Apparently the Naboo are descended from the core world of "Grizmallt," which I assume is famous for beer.
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Jul 6, 2018 04:04
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galagazombie posted:It would definitely be the latter. One of the central themes of Star Wars is that you can't merely "dabble" in evil. No matter how noble your intentions or original goals are opening the door a crack to the dark side will always lead to ripping the whole door out of the frame. Dooku thought he could save the Republic and destroy the Sith by flirting with evil and in the end became the most useful servant of magic space Hitler and enabler of the same corrupt and malevolent big corporations he originally saw as the problem. "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" is completely true in this context. Anakin's arc in RotS is that of an addict telling everyone that he can stop whenever he wants to, but the only real way to not be consumed by the dark side is to go to metaphorical rehab and get off the bad juju entirely. Which is exactly what Luke spends the latter half of RotJ convincing him to do. RotS is essentially a long series of Anakin saying "I'll just kill this next thing and everything will be peachy" but there is always one more thing to kill, one more thing to oppress, one more line to cross, until all that's left are things he hates and nothing worth protecting. By ANH we see the ultimate result of the Dark Side. Vader is a man who only cares about being able to hurt things, who takes relish in causing suffering, and does nothing to help (and indeed further harms) the kind of people he thought the Dark Side would help him protect in the first place. Well no; that’s philosophically incoherent. The ‘good guys’ of the Republic dabbled in evil constantly - for example, by owning droids as slaves. The institution of droid slavery was successfully enforced by the Jedi for over 1000 years. Yoda explicitly and knowingly ‘dabbles in evil’, yet doesn’t turn into a crazed maniac: “To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Great care we must take.” You seem to be defining ‘evil’ as ‘wearing black clothes’, or ‘being a sith.’ Palpatine is also no Hitler. Palpatine is Satan.
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Jul 6, 2018 05:10
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In The Last Jedi, Chewbacca lands on a moon. But in the old Star Wars, a moon lands on Chewbacca.
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Jul 6, 2018 06:11
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well no; that’s philosophically incoherent. The ‘good guys’ of the Republic dabbled in evil constantly Uh, Yeah? Palpatine's whole plan was to seduce not just Anakin, but the whole Republic to the Dark Side. The Empire rose specifically because the Republic kept dabbling in evil until it became a mockery of what it originally stood for. The politics parts of the prequels that people unjustly malign are an ever escalating sequence of the Republic saying "Just this once we'll dabble in evil" while they become increasingly less a republic and progressively more authoritarian until most of the senate cheers the abolishment of democracy because they've become so corrupted by Sheev's siren song. The entire proto-rebellion subplot with Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and Padme is about them seeing exactly where dabbling in totalitarianism is going to lead. The reason they are the ones who form a true resistance is because they're the ones who were against partaking in these actions. Palme spends EpII&III trying to get everyone to stop the war, It's why Palp's has to get her out of the picture to create his army in AotC.
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Jul 6, 2018 06:42
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ruddiger posted:He was training a new generation of child soldiers and thought "they weren't doing it right" instead of not realizing they shouldn't have been doing it at all. The problem was specifically Ben, and before him, Anakin. Both have immense power and a strong urge to fight for justice. Both times, the Jedi Order stifles, supresses, and twists that urge. Both destroy the Jedi Order in response. Simply put, after the basic training needed to understand their power and its consequences, they should be released from their obligations and set free to go free slaves. The Jedi are repeatedly put in a position where this is illustrated by how they are compelled to teach a student who is equally powerful, but with moral clarity which comes from a clearly evil foe. The problem is that the Jedi do not share this moral clarity, and Luke's story shows how attempting to control powerful students corrodes it and recreates Vader at the earliest opportunity. However, the average student probably doesn't feel so driven or stifled. Some, the students who became the Knights of Ren, might be won to the cause of a student who is. So... let them go, with your blessing.
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Jul 6, 2018 07:00
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I suppose the Luke stuff doesn't bother me too much because I enjoy heroes who "win", but fall short morally. Like politicians who disappoint their true believers, that sort of thing. I always enjoy that when I see it, that sort of, "We believed in you and you let us down" schadenfreude.
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Jul 6, 2018 08:54
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Kylo Ren, like Darth Vader, is a murderous authoritarian shithead. Saying Kylo Ren is good is like saying Rommel was good because he tried to kill Hitler and wouldn't have killed quite as many Jews. Luke in TLJ is also very evil however.
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Jul 6, 2018 09:04
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Wheat Loaf posted:I suppose the Luke stuff doesn't bother me too much because I enjoy heroes who "win", but fall short morally.  I also appreciate the irony that Luke's overly concerned about this guy falling to the dark side, but he's actually the one getting seduced into it through his fear over the situation. Fear make suckers of us all.
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Jul 6, 2018 09:12
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porfiria posted:Kylo Ren, like Darth Vader, is a murderous authoritarian shithead. Saying Kylo Ren is good is like saying Rommel was good because he tried to kill Hitler and wouldn't have killed quite as many Jews. You seem concerned with Kylo Ren being mean and stupid ("shithead") as an indicator of evil. In reality he's the hero for wanting to "let the past die" - with "past" meaning the corrupt institutions of Star Wars.
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Jul 6, 2018 09:30
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Random question about Sith stuff: assuming Snoke really is a true believer in all the Sith vs. Jedi stuff, what exactly are the duties of his personal guards? Aren't Sith apprentices supposed to constantly try to get strong enough to murder their master? Once Kylo wrecked Snoke, I feel like those guards should have just kneeled to him.
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Jul 6, 2018 10:43
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Martman posted:Random question about Sith stuff: assuming Snoke really is a true believer in all the Sith vs. Jedi stuff, what exactly are the duties of his personal guards? Aren't Sith apprentices supposed to constantly try to get strong enough to murder their master? Once Kylo wrecked Snoke, I feel like those guards should have just kneeled to him. They're not Sith, just really fancy security guards who knows Teras Kasi.
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Jul 6, 2018 10:49
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Martman posted:Aren't Sith apprentices supposed to constantly try to get strong enough to murder their master? EU nonsense.
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Jul 6, 2018 11:30
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The Clone Wars had an arc that showcased the Sith community better than most EU story. It was basically Maul, his brother, Dooku and Asaaj Ventress constantly trying to backstab each other.
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Jul 6, 2018 12:04
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galagazombie posted:Uh, Yeah? Palpatine's whole plan was to seduce not just Anakin, but the whole Republic to the Dark Side. The Empire rose specifically because the Republic kept dabbling in evil until it became a mockery of what it originally stood for. The politics parts of the prequels that people unjustly malign are an ever escalating sequence of the Republic saying "Just this once we'll dabble in evil" while they become increasingly less a republic and progressively more authoritarian until most of the senate cheers the abolishment of democracy because they've become so corrupted by Sheev's siren song. The entire proto-rebellion subplot with Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and Padme is about them seeing exactly where dabbling in totalitarianism is going to lead. The reason they are the ones who form a true resistance is because they're the ones who were against partaking in these actions. Palme spends EpII&III trying to get everyone to stop the war, It's why Palp's has to get her out of the picture to create his army in AotC. The issue of droid slavery existed long before Palpatine began plotting a path to power and he simply did so by exploiting the fundamental flaws at the heart of the Republic. The Trade Federation's army is an army of slaves, Naboo itself is an imperial project of this Republic, Jedi under the title of peacemakers and negotiators are the Republics strong arm that quell any disputes and so on. The true heart of the rebellion didn’t lie with some of the Republic’s aristocracy wanting to restore it, but someone like Jyn Erso whose plea of hope was terrifying because it desperate - uncertain. brawleh fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 12:07
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The Trade Federation's droids weren't slaves.
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Jul 6, 2018 12:14
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 Tom Preston posted:I think this is secretly why a lot of “fans” don’t like The Last Jedi. They don’t like being told that what they’re doing is bad and irredeemable. No matter what you think about a piece of media… NOTHING justifies this sort of harassment. Disney knows this, and they’re calling you out for it.
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Jul 6, 2018 12:25
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the meta-narrative reading of new star wars as being About Star Wars is insipid and i hope people stop
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Jul 6, 2018 12:53
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Fandom is a mental disorder. There are [crazy people] on both sides.
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Jul 6, 2018 13:26
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ungulateman posted:the meta-narrative reading of new star wars as being About Star Wars is insipid and i hope people stop But the sacred
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Jul 6, 2018 13:30
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Thats a retarded reading
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Jul 6, 2018 13:30
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You seem concerned with Kylo Ren being mean and stupid ("shithead") as an indicator of evil. Ah yes the man who orders the murder of civilians is a good guy. You're so wise.
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Jul 6, 2018 13:38
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I don't think Kylo Ren directly represents Star Wars fans, but he does embody the insecure, toxic form of masculinity that drives the worst of them.
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Jul 6, 2018 13:42
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"toxic masculinity" is a stupid concept.
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Jul 6, 2018 13:47
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:"toxic masculinity" is a stupid concept. Terry Crews have spoken of it and it is his nemesis, thus it exists and it is our duty to help him fight it.
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Jul 6, 2018 14:01
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Terry Crews should be in a Star Wars movie.
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Jul 6, 2018 14:07
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:"toxic masculinity" is a stupid concept.
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Jul 6, 2018 14:13
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:"toxic masculinity" is a stupid concept. This is gonna be good. 
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Jul 6, 2018 14:42
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ruddiger posted:Pictured: A character showing remorse and humility to the person he wronged. Why limit yourself to such a tiny version of Luke showing off the cares he gives? 
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Jul 6, 2018 14:48
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The problem with this revolutionary radical is that he's just too angry and entitled.
Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 15:19
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Please go on. It's a term intended to describe a specific form of hegemonic masculinity, but was wielded by people who thought they were on the cutting edge of feminism by deciding to apply it to everything. "Toxic masculinity" has devolved into simply meaning "thing that is bad," while eclipsing in the minds of the woke crowd the original concept it was intended to further. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 15:42
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