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MachineIV posted:To be fair, I said pitch to WW. But that was more short hand. It was OPP, by way of the WW liaison since at the time he was the only real "White Wolf" as it was (this was long before the Paradox buyout). Technically it was a pitch to WW. But it was also a pitch to OPP because at the time, the two were functionally indistinguishable. When I'm not referencing very specific things, I tend to use WW because that's the name everyone knows. I never actually worked with WWP in its current form. I got a few book notes back from them from work I did before the takeover, but I never did a pitch through them. In fact, very shortly after they took over, I told OPP that I wouldn't be taking further development contracts if they were for WWP-owned properties. And you know what? That's not OPPs fault. Paradox bought the license from CCP and short of committing IP Seppukku and scything off Exalted,the 20th Anniversary lines, and more importantly(at least in a financial sense) CofD there's basically nothing OPP can do. Whereas your response to this was doxxing Dawkins on your facebook page, and that's entirely on you. 
Kurieg fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jul 9, 2018 |
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Jul 9, 2018 15:49
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Jul 9, 2018 15:52
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Kurieg posted:And you know what? That's not OPPs fault. Paradox bought the license from CCP and short of committing IP Seppukku and scything off Exalted,the 20th Anniversary lines, and more importantly(at least in a financial sense) CofD there's basically nothing OPP can do. You'll notice that I never said there was anything they could do. I simply disagree that you can consume one company's products in a vacuum because they're many of the same people. One of the V5 people in the person directly in charge of all OPP's WoD material. You're correct. I totally shared that in a friends-locked post and I should have obscured the email address. However, he's shared that very email address on my not friends-locked posts before, and regularly publicly asks people to contact him at that address in interviews so I think it's a tenuous dox at best. However, I'll be removing that image from the friend-locked post, and I'd appreciate it if you eliminated the original. MachineIV fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jul 9, 2018 |
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Jul 9, 2018 16:19
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It's not friends locked as i was able to access the post and the full sized image in question without a Facebook account.MachineIV posted:You'll notice that I never said there was anything they could do. I simply disagree that you can consume one company's products in a vacuum because they're many of the same people. One of the V5 people in the person directly in charge of all OPP's WoD material. Your post was that because they have one person in common they share the same values, when that person's hiring might not even have been their decision. When nuWolf already has a rather oppressive degree of Control over oWoD Material already to the point that I am probably going to omit that line from my future purchasing decisions. And that's still assuming quite a bit about Dawkins culpability in any of this. Regardless there's still CofD, there's still Scion. They're still good (With one glaring exception) and Scion is doing it's level best to be as inclusive and innofensive as an RPG can be while still talking about a topic as divisive as religion. I'm willing to give OPP Far more credit than the guy who signs off his podcast with "Blood and Souls".
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Jul 9, 2018 16:35
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'Hi please remove the evidence of my wrongdoing'
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Jul 9, 2018 16:37
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If it's the email address he uses with to communicate with the public in his public-facing persona, it's probably not actually doxxing.
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Jul 9, 2018 16:42
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I didnt ask him to remove any evidence of anything. He can get rid of his post if he wants. I’m requesting he get rid of the original because, if it’s to be considered a harmful thing, and I can see the argument for it being, I want to do my due diligence and ask that it be deleted. I don’t care about “evidence.” I absolutely, admittedly posted it. I’m not denying it or pretending I didn’t post it. It didn’t occur to me at the time it was wrong because it’s an advertised email address in interviews. But, he called me out, I’m saying I hosed up there, and I’m asking if we can get rid of the original.
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Jul 9, 2018 16:47
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Well, for one, me deleting it doesn't actually delete it from your post.
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Jul 9, 2018 16:50
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Kurieg posted:Well, for one, me deleting it doesn't actually delete it from your post. I already deleted it. I deleted it the moment I read your post.
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Jul 9, 2018 16:52
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I dunno. Asking for the ant sized evidence to be deleted is still asking for evidence to be deleted.
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Jul 9, 2018 16:54
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evidence of what? if its their public email address, then its really not anything
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Jul 9, 2018 16:55
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MachineIV posted:I already deleted it. I deleted it the moment I read your post. I meant your quote on this forum quoting me. Editing my source post won't remove it from your quote. There I jumped through the hoops to get it removed from Imgur for you. Serf posted:evidence of what? if its their public email address, then its really not anything Posting a private email to prove a point is lovely regardless of if the address is public or not. Not redacting the e-mail address even as a matter of caution is bad form. Particularly coming from Hill, I know this has happened to her before. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Jul 9, 2018 |
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Jul 9, 2018 16:58
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Kurieg posted:I meant your quote on this forum quoting me. Editing my source post won't remove it from your quote. Oh sure. The redacted shot. I meant the un-redacted original. But I edited out the image for posterity. Sorry, vague reference there.
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Jul 9, 2018 17:05
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Kurieg posted:Posting a private email to prove a point is lovely regardless of if the e-mail is public or not. Not redacting the e-mail address even as a matter of caution is bad form. Particularly coming from Hill, I know this has happened to her before. I’ll cop to that. Thanks for pulling it.
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Jul 9, 2018 17:08
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Kurieg posted:Posting a private email to prove a point is lovely regardless of if the e-mail is public or not. Not redacting the e-mail address even as a matter of caution is bad form. Particularly coming from Hill, I know this has happened to her before. 
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Jul 9, 2018 17:09
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I apparently got too energetic with my backspacing. The second e-mail should be E-mail address, give me some credit.
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Jul 9, 2018 17:10
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Kurieg posted:I apparently got too energetic with my backspacing. The second e-mail should be E-mail address, give me some credit. Don’t worry; I got what you meant.
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Jul 9, 2018 17:18
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My issue with how that tweet is phrased is that I don't know how to read it except as saying OPP in general is just as bad. You may have meant it asMachineIV posted:You can't flee the writers for V5 by buying OPP WoD books, because a V5 developer is literally the OPP WoD line developer. Maybe it strikes me more because I'm not a fan of WoD in the first place, and thus my concern about this mess as a consumer is trying to figure out how to react to the wholly OPP games (Scion and Trinity), which so far seem to have escaped the nuWW taint. It's still far too close for comfort but OPP does produce more than just the WoD lines.
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Jul 9, 2018 18:06
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Desiden posted:Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if nuWW had just blundered into these nazi callsigns. Maybe, but it’s so obvious that they also should have been able to correct it in editing after the dice came up that way. Did none of the playtesters mention it, though?
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Jul 9, 2018 18:22
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It's a one in ten-thousand chance of coming up 1,4,8,8. So no - even if there was a roll, it wasn't accidentally in that order. It's like how you ask a teenager for a number 1-100, and they'll say 69. Except nazis.
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Jul 9, 2018 18:24
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lmao that ken hite is gonna be the lead designer on vampire: nazi edition
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Jul 9, 2018 18:27
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Haha the article suggests SIGMATA as an alternative game to support
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Jul 9, 2018 19:38
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So, is there actually any feasible way of supporting WoD or CoD or OPP at this point without also wanting to invade Poland?
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Jul 9, 2018 19:50
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Bedlamdan posted:So, is there actually any feasible way of supporting WoD or CoD or OPP at this point without also wanting to invade Poland? Given that, the answer is no on WoD. nuWW is going to get money from that one way or another and any sales would be taken to validate that they're doing the right thing with the line. CoD there are a couple of variables that can create different lines for people to decide if its too far to cross. The money one is the simplest - is nuWW getting money from buying a CoD book? That depends on their license and I don't have access to look up details, if they're available. In many cases the money for the license will already be paid up front, and a new sale of a CoD book would have no bearing on what nuWW gets. Otoh they might be getting a royalty, in which case buying CoD books new would benefit nuWW. If you absolutely don't want nuWW to get money, that's the thing to figure out. Harder to determine is shared WoD and CoD writers, implying that the same terrible views are ultimately involved in both. There is cross-pollination, but there's also strong evidence from this very thread that a lot of writers had their work changed by nuWW against their wishes when it came to WoD and were taken by surprise by the shift towards awfulness. So if the goal is not to support writers with terrible views, you'll have to parse out the dividing lines there. For non-WoD/CoD products, the money is fairly straightforward. OPP owns those licenses outright, the money for the licenses has long since been paid and not to the current iteration of WW, and no future moneys will be going to nuWW for them. The question about shared writers is essentially the same as for CoD.
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Jul 9, 2018 20:19
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Scion is OPP only, the money spent on Scion is OPP's. NuWolf has less than zero say in what they do with it. As far as shared creators, writers can and absolutely do get paid to write things they don't necessarily agree with. If you're concerned about that, look up their online presence and see who they associate with and what views they espouse.
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Jul 9, 2018 20:28
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Kurieg posted:As far as shared creators, writers can and absolutely do get paid to write things they don't necessarily agree with. Is “I got paid to write something regressive so I did” not pretty close to “I was just following orders”?
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Jul 9, 2018 20:35
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Serf posted:lmao that ken hite is gonna be the lead designer on vampire: nazi edition Good old Ken “Actually, Pinochet was cool and good!” Hite-ler. 
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Jul 9, 2018 20:40
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Subjunctive posted:Is “I got paid to write something regressive so I did” not pretty close to “I was just following orders”? There's a significant gap between being paid to write something offensive versus being paid to staff a death camp. At least, I hope so!
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Jul 9, 2018 20:44
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Subjunctive posted:Is “I got paid to write something regressive so I did” not pretty close to “I was just following orders”? In this case it's more often "I wrote something that was after-the-fact edited to be something I don't agree with and was sandwiched between two other things that are morally reprehensible." Unless someone has Blackhat Matt levels of authorial voice it's sometimes difficult to figure out which person actually drew the swastika on the 18 author collaboration.
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Jul 9, 2018 20:45
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Bedlamdan posted:There's a significant gap between being paid to write something offensive versus being paid to staff a death camp. Well yes, obviously, but people use the excuse for things short of participation in genocide. Kurieg posted:In this case it's more often "I wrote something that was after-the-fact edited to be something I don't agree with and was sandwiched between two other things that are morally reprehensible." That doesn’t sound like “get paid to write something they disagree with”, to me.
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Jul 9, 2018 20:46
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Kurieg posted:Unless someone has Blackhat Matt levels of authorial voice it's sometimes difficult to figure out which person actually drew the swastika on the 18 author collaboration. The ones that didn’t immediately disavow it and stop taking work from companies that would do that? E: oops, meant to edit that in.
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Jul 9, 2018 20:49
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Hite's contribution seems to be mechanics rather than politics. He's said a fair bit about the project (notably how heavy-handed some of the editing and direction have been), and discussed his political leanings and thoughts on the current US administration a great deal more. Based on that material, I'd be shocked if he were involved in the actual Nazification of the end product. Dude's a Republican with all the baggage that entails in this day and age, but he's not alt-right. It's also worth noting that he was attached to the project before the world started tilting into Full Nazi, and bailing from it mid-stream would almost certainly destroy his career.
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Jul 9, 2018 20:57
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i mean, i listen to ken and robin talk about stuff and i know what ken hite is. dude is still living in the pre-escalator world and hasn't quite caught on to the fact that his chosen party is fully nazi now, which really just makes him an idiot (though he does have absolutely abhorrent politics even outside the current paradigm). it owns that his product, much like his party, has slipped away from him in the exact same manner lmao
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Jul 9, 2018 21:02
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I think Ken Hite is an interesting guy with a cool knowledge of obscure history but he's also a huge piece of poo poo who is perfectly happy with cops beating the poo poo out of protesters (as all Republicans are) and minorities getting crushed. Luckily he writes games where his lovely politics, for the most part, don't really leak in.
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Jul 9, 2018 21:10
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Comrade Koba posted:Good old Ken “Actually, Pinochet was cool and good!” Hite-ler. Wait, what? Tell me you're joking.
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Jul 9, 2018 21:13
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Subjunctive posted:That doesn’t sound like “get paid to write something they disagree with”, to me. Freelancers, especially in this industry, usually have very little influence on how what they write gets chopped up and re-written once the editors get their hands on it. In several documented cases with WoD, freelancers have had work twisted, and effectively the only option they had was to pull their work entirely and not get paid, and given the situation I would not fault someone who had to suck it up so they could eat. And that's assuming even that option was available. As for disavowing, again unfortunately this industry is very incestuous and has a lot of people who, if they aren't lovely themselves, are definitely the sorts likely to punish a lack of "civility." So some of those same freelancers can't openly call this stuff out for fear of losing their livelihoods. Taking an assignment where you know you're getting paid to write regressive bullshit up front, on the other hand, or justifying working on a regressive product by saying that your part is just "mechanics" or whatever is pretty much bullshit. Someone would have to have a pretty strong argument about not having any other option, and that not being due to lovely behavior on their part in other contexts, to countenance that.
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Jul 9, 2018 21:24
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Falstaff posted:Wait, what? Tell me you're joking. Ken Hite is a very traditional Reaganite Republican.
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Jul 9, 2018 22:06
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Are the Paradox guys 1488s or is it just a depressing number of their fans and modders?
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Jul 9, 2018 22:11
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Schadenboner posted:Are the Paradox guys 1488s or is it just a depressing number of their fans and modders? Their only ideology is to get money through DLC
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Jul 9, 2018 22:12
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I'm genuinely surprised they don't get more poo poo for making a game where you can play as Hitler.
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Jul 9, 2018 22:13
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