TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Liquid Communism posted:

That is some of the best 'it is pointless to talk to you because you will misrepresent anything we discuss' I've seen implied in quite some time.

That's a lot more than I got out of Tobias when I e-mailed him over a year ago about my concerns, which was a polite but essentially dismissive "thanks for writing" note sent from his iPhone, before just going and doubling down on defending Mr. Smith later publicly.

Paradox decided to basically give White Wolf carte blanche to operate on its own, so they don't oversee them directly. That being said, that was still a decision they made and that they're responsible for, and it's one I hold them to. If they ever care about it, which seems unlikely, they can do something about it. That all being said, all you really need to do is not buy from White Wolf, and talk publicly about why you aren't buying White Wolf products. I don't see putting money into, say, Onyx Path products as a big deal, though I'm far warier than I was a year or two ago. Certainly, putting money into the Old World of Darkness would seem to set a bad precedent right now. In the end, the only thing that's really going to change anything is V5 and other One World of Darkness products flopping.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 01:33

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# ? May 25, 2024 18:28

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Maxwell Lord posted:

My one data point for Paradox is that while the right likes to valorize the Crusades as good and just because it was against Muslims, Crusader Kings II accurately portrays them as a hopeless clusterfuck where the European nations score some early victories then blunder around the desert, withdrawing troops as soon as the Pope will let them.

You�re supposed to join briefly then immediately quit in order to gain the Crusader trait, which will come in handy for when you bribe the pope to excommunicate your uncle.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 01:38

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

Yeah basically it's, if you don't join you risk being excommunicated, but everyone has their own poo poo to do so they want their boys back as soon as possible.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 02:10

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

That's a lot more than I got out of Tobias when I e-mailed him over a year ago about my concerns, which was a polite but essentially dismissive "thanks for writing" note sent from his iPhone, before just going and doubling down on defending Mr. Smith later publicly.

Paradox decided to basically give White Wolf carte blanche to operate on its own, so they don't oversee them directly. That being said, that was still a decision they made and that they're responsible for, and it's one I hold them to. If they ever care about it, which seems unlikely, they can do something about it. That all being said, all you really need to do is not buy from White Wolf, and talk publicly about why you aren't buying White Wolf products. I don't see putting money into, say, Onyx Path products as a big deal, though I'm far warier than I was a year or two ago. Certainly, putting money into the Old World of Darkness would seem to set a bad precedent right now. In the end, the only thing that's really going to change anything is V5 and other One World of Darkness products flopping.

To note with the Paradox part, Paradox Development Studios (the side that actually makes games) is basically parallel to White Wolf. They're both owned by Paradox Interactive, and nuWW is basically a passion project of a couple of the execs/owners of Paradox Interactive.

So Paradox Development Studios has no input or control over nuWW, but Paradox Interactive does.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 02:44

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Comrade Gorbash posted:

So Paradox Development Studios has no input or control over nuWW, but Paradox Interactive does.

I understand, it's just... last week, I went down the Paradox Bakery. And there were some great rolls, papillons, the kind of thing I'd usually expect. Most of it is made by the owner's son, Johan Paradox. And I noticed that some of the new cookies were labeled as lemon drop cookies, but that wasn't a lemony smell coming from them, but piss. So I ask Johan, "Who made these?", and he's like "Oh, that's my brother. That's Tobias."

So I go to the owner, Fred Paradox, and I'm like "You know, Fred. I think there's piss in the lemon drop cookies that your son, Tobias Paradox is making." And Fred Paradox is like "Look, cooking is an art, and Tobias has his own art, I've just decided to let him cook whatever he wants." So I scratch my head, and am like, "Okay, I'll take it up with Tobias, maybe he has the recipe wrong."

I go to Tobias and I'm like "You know you're putting piss in your cookies, right? I can't... really feel comfortable shopping in a place that serves pissy cookies. Could you maybe not have the piss in them?" And he's like "Oh, thank you for the feedback! That's definitely something to keep in mind!", and then kind of hurries me out. Now, the next day I poke my head in to see if he's fixed things, and I can only just... smell piss. It's like he's doubled the piss content of those cookies. I look to Tobias uncomfortably. He just smiles. "Man, can you smell piss? I can't! Have a cookie!" I hurriedly make my way out again. Johan makes great cookies! But can I really shop at a store where there's a man pissing in his baked goods? Even if they're not using the same oven? Shouldn't Fred do something about it? I mean, Johan isn't to blame, but...

I haven't really been back.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 03:37

kingcom: Jun 23, 2012

Plutonis posted:

The new expac will fix that though.

The expac is going to give you 30+ new options to decapitate your own crusade and cripple christianity's control over the east as long as it humiliates a french king in the process.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 04:28

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

Alien Rope Burn posted:

That's a lot more than I got out of Tobias when I e-mailed him over a year ago about my concerns, which was a polite but essentially dismissive "thanks for writing" note sent from his iPhone, before just going and doubling down on defending Mr. Smith later publicly.

Paradox decided to basically give White Wolf carte blanche to operate on its own, so they don't oversee them directly. That being said, that was still a decision they made and that they're responsible for, and it's one I hold them to. If they ever care about it, which seems unlikely, they can do something about it. That all being said, all you really need to do is not buy from White Wolf, and talk publicly about why you aren't buying White Wolf products. I don't see putting money into, say, Onyx Path products as a big deal, though I'm far warier than I was a year or two ago. Certainly, putting money into the Old World of Darkness would seem to set a bad precedent right now. In the end, the only thing that's really going to change anything is V5 and other One World of Darkness products flopping.

It seems like the same problem with Topps and CGL for Shadowrun. Rights owners don't seem to care how badly the licensee uses the property or hurts its reputation.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 04:30

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/wwpublishing/status/1016548638695272448

:thunk:

# ? Jul 10, 2018 07:47

Cinnamon Bear: Aug 29, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

We could just change the numbers but now that we know what they mean we kind of want to keep them

# ? Jul 10, 2018 10:30

Serf: May 5, 2011

"so what if we were to post the hitler number just... jumbled up? would that work?"

# ? Jul 10, 2018 10:53

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Serf posted:

"so what if we were to post the hitler number just... jumbled up? would that work?"

88 backwards is still ... 88?! :eyepop:

# ? Jul 10, 2018 11:02

Desiden: Mar 13, 2016; Mindless self indulgence is SRS BIZNS

If you do the 14 words backwards, does that make it bizarro? White children securing the past for the non-aryan races?

Now I want to play a game about time traveling woke kids fighting the slave trade.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 11:15

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

This White Wolf thing has me astounded re: the number of people arguing that using "Build the wall" in your press release has nothing to do with the alt-right. :psyduck:

# ? Jul 10, 2018 12:06

Terrible Opinions: Oct 18, 2013

Well the original dogs with dice post appears to be deleted. Does anyone have it saved?

# ? Jul 10, 2018 16:43

Kestral: Nov 24, 2000; Forum Veteran

It's still up on the Wayback Machine. I've saved a copy from there in case it becomes useful for some reason.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 16:55

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

quote:

Due to �

claims of harassment and abuse (both real and fictitious/uncorroborated) directed to people who work both in and outside of the gaming community including, employees of White Wolf Publishing and Onyx Path Publishing and others not related to either company,

vitriolic responses to the article from at least one popular feminist gaming critic

threats of personal violence and death directed at myself and my loved ones,

emails from individuals claiming to represent White Wolf Publishing containing purported legal threats,

other attempts to silence voices of criticism and enquirey,

This page has now been removed.

What feminist gaming critic went off on the article?

# ? Jul 10, 2018 17:27

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

I'm guessing SApplecline.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 17:29

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Zak's reddit alt or the real guy?

# ? Jul 10, 2018 17:33

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

I mean some puppet account, if not the creep himself.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 17:46

Sion: Oct 16, 2004; "I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."

Nuns with Guns posted:

What feminist gaming critic went off on the article?

in order to distance ourselves from alt-right fuckheads and gamergaters, we should act like alt-right fuckheads and gamergaters it's perfect when you :thunk:

about it

# ? Jul 10, 2018 18:10

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Sion posted:

in order to distance ourselves from alt-right fuckheads and gamergaters, we should act like alt-right fuckheads and gamergaters it's perfect when you about it

It's suddenly alt right to ask what people were publicly critical about the article? Or was it a private email the article's author got?

# ? Jul 10, 2018 19:07

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

I think he's questioning a hypothetical feminist's decision to bully the author into silence.

Which, while that's questionable, it's way more likely some chud wrote him hate mail and signed it "a feminist."

# ? Jul 10, 2018 19:14

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Ah yeah that'd make sense. It'd have to be a convincing fake of a popular game critic if it's called out like that though.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 19:22

LGD: Sep 25, 2004

moths posted:

I think he's questioning a hypothetical feminist's decision to bully the author into silence.

Which, while that's questionable, it's way more likely some chud wrote him hate mail and signed it "a feminist."

without invoking false equivalency or taking a position on the validity of the claims, you're going down a very bad path if you start assuming people who are nominally aligned with your politics couldn't have possibly been ultra-lovely online and it therefore it must have been a false flag

# ? Jul 10, 2018 19:29

Sion: Oct 16, 2004; "I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."

Yeah it was a bad post. Sorry. I am kind of livid about this whole thing though :/

# ? Jul 10, 2018 19:32

potatocubed: Jul 26, 2012; *rathian noises*

LGD posted:

without invoking false equivalency or taking a position on the validity of the claims, you're going down a very bad path if you start assuming people who are nominally aligned with your politics couldn't have possibly been ultra-lovely online and it therefore it must have been a false flag

Yeah. I would like to believe that no-one on the left would pull that poo poo... but I've been online long enough that I absolutely believe someone did.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 19:39

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

moths posted:

I think he's questioning a hypothetical feminist's decision to bully the author into silence.

Which, while that's questionable, it's way more likely some chud wrote him hate mail and signed it "a feminist."

It could be that someone told him that his article was causing a large uptick in harassment towards people he wasn't expecting to. I thought I saw that pop up on Twitter.

# ? Jul 10, 2018 19:46

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

LGD posted:

without invoking false equivalency or taking a position on the validity of the claims, you're going down a very bad path if you start assuming people who are nominally aligned with your politics couldn't have possibly been ultra-lovely online and it therefore it must have been a false flag

You're absolutely correct, and I'd 100% agree with this under typical circumstances.

What gives me pause here is that a specific, prominent rear end in a top hat attacking the article has demonstrated a history of both 1) falsely presenting himself as an ally and 2) sock-puppeting the gently caress out of conversations involving him.

Without knowing all the facts, I'm just reading this all as "article was harassed into the ground."

# ? Jul 10, 2018 19:58

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Sion posted:

Yeah it was a bad post. Sorry. I am kind of livid about this whole thing though :/

It's cool. I guess on the plus side, the red flags that people have been worrying about with nuWhite Wolf for a few years now got pulled into a more public spotlight. Maybe it'll make WW reconsider some poo poo? At least it shows that if they don't, there will be some pretty nasty backlash when nerds not deep in internet tabletop gaming drama find out about it.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 04:01

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

No, the article came down. They're busy unfurling the Mission Accomplished banner.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 04:21

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

Harassment works! :confuoot:

# ? Jul 11, 2018 04:43

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

I know the article came down. I assume that's part of why Sion was mad

# ? Jul 11, 2018 04:43

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

moths posted:

Harassment works!

everyone go home, no moral!

# ? Jul 11, 2018 05:19

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

My bet was that it was an underhanded jab at Zak S, who after all bills himself as the True Sex-Positive Ally To Women Everywhere among other things.

I'm honestly not sure who else it would have been.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 08:42

gourdcaptain: Nov 16, 2012

I just did some random twitter searches to check the current status of this debacle, and the CEO of Paradox Interactive, Fredrik Wester, is arguing it out with some person I've never heard of if they're involved with this at all? (Besides, you know, owning White Wolf, but for some reason they think it doesn't.) Also the CEO hasn't heard of any wrongdoing by White Wolf, because why would they? -_-

https://twitter.com/TheWesterFront/status/1016938203574661120
https://twitter.com/Inkfacefahz/status/1016950917411868674

gourdcaptain fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Jul 11, 2018

# ? Jul 11, 2018 09:29

LGD: Sep 25, 2004

Reene posted:

My bet was that it was an underhanded jab at Zak S, who after all bills himself as the True Sex-Positive Ally To Women Everywhere among other things.

I'm honestly not sure who else it would have been.

that would be weird though, since the article called him out by name and cited specific reasons he's a shitheel - pulling it specifically because Zak S vitriolically complained under his own name would be weird, as would dancing around his identity (I mean for reasons other than avoiding nuisance defamation threats due to him acting through unverifiable sockpuppets)

LGD fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Jul 11, 2018

# ? Jul 11, 2018 10:10

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Reene posted:

My bet was that it was an underhanded jab at Zak S, who after all bills himself as the True Sex-Positive Ally To Women Everywhere among other things.

I'm honestly not sure who else it would have been.

It's really really really really obvious who it is now and not Zak. To make a long story the scathing criticism he got was you should consult and ask harassment victims before you jump into an issue because you can very well make their lives worst. The guy effectively just harassed one of Zak's victims and she's pissed right now.

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Jul 11, 2018

# ? Jul 11, 2018 13:58

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

MadScientistWorking posted:

because you can very well make their lives worst.

Isn't this who assholes want us to blame though? That harassment is an inevitability and when they get called out and lash out, it's someone else's fault?

It's the point of their bullshit.

E: dog with dice is no longer a blog this morning.

moths fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Jul 11, 2018

# ? Jul 11, 2018 14:09

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

moths posted:

E: dog with dice is no longer a blog this morning.

jesus if this industry has managed to harass yet another person out of the internet I swear to god

# ? Jul 11, 2018 14:39

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# ? May 25, 2024 18:28

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

moths posted:

Isn't this who assholes want us to blame though? That harassment is an inevitability and when they get called out and lash out, it's someone else's fault?

It's the point of their bullshit.

No you can be complicit in harassment and be completely benign and well intentioned. The advice I received recently when dealing with this sort of clusterfuck is to center your actions around the victims because you are not the one usually going to deal with the fallout.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 14:56

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