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Zereth posted:I've never seen anybody provide an example of it working, myself. It's getting a bit far off topic for the White Wolf thread but over the years, and through reading various historical accounts, the value of pure and unsullied nonviolent protest as a means of effecting change seem to have been heavily romanticized over the years, and the protests which have generally been most effective have been, if not outright violent, at least far more disruptive than the people who are concerned about Nazis being punched would likely be comfortable with.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:45
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Most recognized successful non-violent protests had other groups engaging in violent protest at the same time. Not, like, the exact same day but contemporaneously to each other.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:00
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Kai Tave posted:It's getting a bit far off topic for the White Wolf thread but over the years, and through reading various historical accounts, the value of pure and unsullied nonviolent protest as a means of effecting change seem to have been heavily romanticized over the years, and the protests which have generally been most effective have been, if not outright violent, at least far more disruptive than the people who are concerned about Nazis being punched would likely be comfortable with. Nonviolent protest against an opponent willing to use violence generally has as much effect as it influences someone willing to use violence (or with vastly greater social power) to step in.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:05
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I meant specifically against fascists, not nonviolent protest in general.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:09
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Crasical posted:Wait, hold up, I'm legit having some trouble here. Here's the latest position from Liberal Force Zero, if you're actually interested: "Even Nazis should have a right to free speech" has been the topic of discussion basically since Charlottesville. Nazis of course flourish in non-violent environments because they get to frame fascism and rabid nationalism as 'just an opinion' worthy of equal consideration as, 'maybe let's not put people in camps.' They use this as unsubtle cover to do and say whatever they want. Unfortunately this has the side effect of making the vulnerable people they target nervous about vocalizing dissent. The ideal cure for this would be, 'peaceful anti-fascist marches of such number that no one will ever fear fascists again' and you know, that's sort of happening. But really no one should care or be surprised if somebody gets hit in the face for having a viewpoint that starts with, 'some species of people aren't actually people and not worthy of humane treatment' which is where 2018 has brought us. American neo-fascists try to frame themselves as just another voice and want to 'engage' in discussion, because to them facts and lies are just tools to manipulate discourse. "We should find an alternative to violence" is an okay position to take! "Nazism is just an opinion and I don't think people should be hurt for their opinions" is the bad take.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:26
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Crasical posted:Wait, hold up, I'm legit having some trouble here. His initial post was that people not letting themselves get beat up was what was inspiring nazis, and insinuated that anyone not letting themselves get beat up was a coward.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:32
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I always feel there's a certain irony in quoting Churchill about anti-fascism or whatever. I would put him in the same category as Stalin, if certainly much lower down, of "bad man, fighting much worse man". Kai Tave posted:It's getting a bit far off topic for the White Wolf thread but over the years, and through reading various historical accounts, the value of pure and unsullied nonviolent protest as a means of effecting change seem to have been heavily romanticized over the years, and the protests which have generally been most effective have been, if not outright violent, at least far more disruptive than the people who are concerned about Nazis being punched would likely be comfortable with.
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Jul 10, 2018 12:39
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Nonviolence works best historically in a good cop / bad cop sort of way. That is, America only chose MLK when the alternative was Malcom X. The Crown could accommodate Ghandi or see India go the way of other colonies. Antifa is doing God's work, in being the stick that lets us pretend the carrot of nonviolent intellectual armchair resistance works.
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Jul 10, 2018 12:49
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Crasical posted:Wait, hold up, I'm legit having some trouble here. So I'm gonna be the guy who says: yes, actually, if you value telling people not to punch Nazis over punching Nazis, you are not only wrong but you have a problem position. Is violence good? No. But it's much better to punch Nazis, to deplatform them, to resist them by any means possible, than to tolerate them and let them espouse their desires to lock up and murder people like me. Hi, I'm Jewish. I'm friends with gay folks, lesbians, trans people. And if you're telling me that I should put up with Nazis trying to normalize their murder and mine? gently caress you. You are part of the problem. No tolerance for Nazis. Do you need to punch Nazis? No, especially if it'd make your life unsafe. But do you have any space to tell others not to? Only if you want to help and support the Nazis.
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Jul 10, 2018 13:24
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Kai Tave posted:The tl;dr is anybody who makes a big stink about Nazis getting punched and how awful and shameful it is to do a thing like that is someone with a badly misplaced sense of priorities at best, or a dumb rear end in a top hat at worst. Actually, at worst they're an active sympathizer making incredibly disingenuous arguments specifically in order to enable their fellow neo-nazis. Not exactly a small group falling into that category...
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Jul 10, 2018 13:56
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At worst, they're the American president.
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Jul 10, 2018 14:24
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I'm kind of baffled that anyone could defend the NuWoD or modern White Wolf staff at this point. Maybe the rot's just in the managerial sections, but just...holy poo poo. There's been so much crap that it's pretty obvious that there's some hinky poo poo going on. Between Zak Sabbath and his "fans" literally harassing a writer for OPP out of the company after being brought on to do a WW project, Zak writing in a nosferatu trans-person as some sort of weird-rear end attack on transgender people, the whole rapecon thing, the constant messaging issues with the V5 test editions (ranging from literal coded neo-nazi speech to including language used by that group that they'd specifically get), to the constant attempts to deflect or ignore criticism and questions as to what the gently caress was going on in the company (something that's increased in volume and urgency to the point that it eventually even started coming from people who are typically apathetic about stuff like this), to honestly just an ever increasing laundry list of shady stuff it's obvious that in the best case scenario management at WW is off their meds. In the worst, and probably more likely, case they're either marketing to or in fact are straight up neo-nazi's trying to co-opt old nerd hobbies. Which is kind of pathetic all by itself. OPP better not suffer for this though. They've been pretty great, outside of the whole Beast thing. And it seems like once they clued in what that writer was up too they were quick to get involved in fixing it. They're basically the polar opposite of the WW staff from what I can see. Which makes it worse that they're liable to take more heat from Nu-WW's bullshit. Archonex fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 14:30
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I'm just getting back into Vampire after learning about V20 and V20DA. I'm bummed to learn that nazi-appeasing losers have sunk their claws into the forthcoming fifth edition. FWIW, anyone who refers to themselves as a "classical liberal" is almost definitely a racist, nationalist piece of poo poo. In addition, there is no such thing as "liberal antifascism". It is inherently radical and works outside the institutionalist boundaries of liberalism.
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Jul 10, 2018 14:56
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Also, I don't know if this was posted or not but Swed-Drac and Zak Sabbath are freaking out and trying to do damage control over the article in this reddit thread. https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/8xc41t/how_new_paradox_interactive_owned_white_wolf/ Zak keeps claiming he's a victim and is the target of harassment (While carefully sidestepping around the fact that he's actually been the one doing the harassing for quite awhile. Which the article that was posted even brings up!) and that he's an "anti gamergater" despite all evidence to the contrary. Also, someone brought up that he's been caught using sock puppet accounts to support whatever his claim of the hour is only for that particular sub-thread to get abandoned by Zak in favor of attacking the article on another one. Tobias/Swed-Drac claims that humanity is in as a mechanic but that it isn't in the playtests. Actually, he's constantly repeating it in every post that brings up criticism of him, the game, or Zak like it excuses everything else. Never mind all the other stuff he and his take on the company did that's skipped over. The thread also seems to be getting thread-bombed by alt righters of varying sorts to make it seem like the article was spurious nonsense. I say that they're alt-righters/neo nazis by going off of their post history. A really obvious example of what I mean that didn't even necessarily require tracking their posting history to confirm it posted:What? The author is exactly like a Nazi that sees commie and Jewish lies in everything, seeing ghosts in an alternate universe about Vampires. The entire text is just ghost-hunting, it's so painful - although some connections made, especially about the people involved, should be something to investigate for Pdox. Honestly, it's a good read just to solidify that those two developers are prooobably scumbags and shouldn't be trusted when they cry foul and claim they're innocent. Archonex fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 15:09
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In other news, the preview for Night Horrors: The Toremented (Promethean NPC/enemies book) looks neat.
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Jul 10, 2018 15:22
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I see Zak is once again posting under his own name, and not that of Shannon Appelcline. e:  If you run a whole bunch of playtests with something lovely in your game, and nobody blinks at it, that speaks very poorly of how you're recruiting playtesters. Pope Guilty fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 15:25
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Pope Guilty posted:I see Zak is once again posting under his own name, and not that of Shannon Appelcline. Wait Zak was pretending to be Shannon? What?
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Jul 10, 2018 15:47
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Wait Zak was pretending to be Shannon? What? He spent about a year posting on Reddit as 'SAppelcline' until he hosed up and posted something as himself using the wrong account. He later blamed a roommate.
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Jul 10, 2018 15:49
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Mors Rattus posted:He spent about a year posting on Reddit as 'SAppelcline' until he hosed up and posted something as himself using the wrong account. He later blamed a roommate. Not just anyone, it was as an admin on RPG.net I think. Also, no one in charge of RPG.net knew that Shannon was one of his false online persona's he used to promote himself and defend all of his lovely actions until he hosed up real bad. I may be mis-remembering it, but I believe permabannings ensued. At the very least a good chunk of the forums seemed to rejoice at him finally being told to  .Someone who has that massive document detailing all the horrible stuff Zak's gotten up too can link it (Someone started collating all the stuff he's done to harass and hurt people because he gaslights and lies incessantly to try and throw off the accusations when karma comes knocking.). I don't have it any more due to my house burning down and losing all of my files and bookmarks that were on my PC at the time. But this last post on one of that reddit page's sub-threads before Zak ditched it to continue the attack/damage control elsewhere pretty much sums that particular incident up: Someone calling him on his bullshit posted:Zac, you managed to post this as you instead of the fake shannon account! Good job! Archonex fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 15:53
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That post is also getting downvoted into oblivion because Reddit's post voting system is cool and good. He also cites it as a source of harassment. Who knew that citing poo poo that's a matter of record could be harassment.
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Jul 10, 2018 15:56
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Talking about Reddit is fine but I'm about to head off for a while and don't want this thread to become grognards.txt before I get back, so try not to ligitate what some dudes posted too much 
Ettin fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 15:59
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Also that guy who called out Zak on that page appears to have caught a sock puppet account of Zak's on Reddit a year ago. No clue which one it was since the account was since deleted but loving lol. He really cannot help himself, can he? Not sure how to link the post directly, and the timeline of him growing increasingly agitated and then eventually enraged at the behavior of the WW developers and consultants is pretty entertaining and endemic of a lot of people who aren't turbo-nerd alt-righters anyways so: https://www.reddit.com/user/pharniel Edit: Perfect timing on that double post. :/ As something more relevant, I noticed that one of the post trees in that Reddit thread also brings up that the Facebook responses to White Wolf's Facebook post/damage control attempt to deny they're pro-nazi is full of neo-nazi's and alt-righters trying to cover for the company. I wasn't sure about that until I checked myself and whelp. It turns out it's kinda full of far right wing types trying to run cover for White Wolf. https://www.facebook.com/whitewolfpublishing/ At this point I really don't understand who Swed-Dracula/WW thinks they're fooling with this "Who, me?" act. Is it to keep Paradox confused so they won't fire them before the increasingly inevitable PR backlash fucks them over too? Or do they really think people are that stupid? Archonex fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 16:01
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Archonex posted:Also, no one in charge of RPG.net knew that Shannon was one of his false online persona's he used to promote himself and defend all of his lovely actions until he hosed up real bad. I may be mis-remembering it, but I believe permabannings ensued. At the very least a good chunk of the forums seemed to rejoice at him finally being told to I know I did. Even removing how horrible Zak Attak is as person, he was also the most tiresome person I've ever interacted with on a forum. I lost count of how many times he devolved into calling people 'Tipper Gore' which was probably the best clue that he was actually older than he let on.
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Jul 10, 2018 16:09
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Ettin posted:Talking about Reddit is fine but I'm about to head off for a while and don't want this thread to become grognards.txt before I get back, so try not to ligitate what some dudes posted too much quick, mods are asleep post Technocracy memes.
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Jul 10, 2018 16:12
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Pope Guilty posted:I see Zak is once again posting under his own name, and not that of Shannon Appelcline. Poorly recruited? The first alpha playtest was people at the World of Darkness fan event. They then released that playtest openly and for people to send feedback. They were not recruiting anyone.
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Jul 10, 2018 16:31
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Sion posted:quick, mods are asleep post Banisher memes.
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Jul 10, 2018 16:57
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So, over in Geist 2e land... Am I missing some interaction with pitching the Sin-Eater a Beat when the targets of, say, Dirge or Marionette resolve the Condition? It's analogous to getting a Beat when you get injured before finishing use of Oracle, but this is giving the Bound a Beat for someone else being injured on their orders. Or is that the whole of it - each Haunt has some potential for Beat generation for its user?
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Jul 10, 2018 18:24
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You basically got it, each Haunt has some potential for Beat generation. It's the carrot to turn every problem into a ghost revenge fantasy even when that's a terrible idea.
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Jul 10, 2018 19:11
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TwoWordName posted:You basically got it, each Haunt has some potential for Beat generation. It's the carrot to turn every problem into a ghost revenge fantasy even when that's a terrible idea. Getting players to do the worst possible thing is always good. One of my woof players ate a human (he was really bad!). And I cannot wait for her to bite about human and discover the condition she earned
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Jul 10, 2018 19:14
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what feminist gaming critic decried the dog with dice article? seems like a weird position to take on a fairly reasonable article
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Jul 10, 2018 19:19
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Relin posted:what feminist gaming critic decried the dog with dice article? seems like a weird position to take on a fairly reasonable article Well, Zak does like to call himself a feminist.
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Jul 10, 2018 19:23
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Sion posted:quick, mods are asleep post Technocracy memes.
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Jul 10, 2018 19:41
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Join The Seers fuckers
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Jul 10, 2018 23:45
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Join The Seers fuckers I think you'll find 1. Humanity is magical 2. Democracy fosters the truth 3. Destroy the servants of the Lie Join the Seers, get the guillotine
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Jul 11, 2018 00:30
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Welp as an old V:tM fan I was interested in the "V5" stuff but not anymore. I guess I'll stick with Requiem Second Edition. Is it compatible with New Wave Requiem?
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Jul 11, 2018 01:11
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I have no idea what "New Wave Requiem" is but if you're talking about Requiem 1st Edition then there will probably be slight mismatches and hiccups but a lot of material can be updated to work with 2E with some effort.
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Jul 11, 2018 01:14
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I have no idea what "New Wave Requiem" is but if you're talking about Requiem 1st Edition then there will probably be slight mismatches and hiccups but a lot of material can be updated to work with 2E with some effort. New Wave Requiem is that dope book about Vampire in the 80's. I don't remember how much hard rules content it has in it but it'll have to be updated, it was written for 1st. Setting material can be used as is, of course.
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Jul 11, 2018 01:16
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Joe Slowboat posted:I think you'll find wrong, Join The Seers, save the world
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Jul 11, 2018 01:49
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:I don't remember how much hard rules content it has in it but it'll have to be updated, it was written for 1st. Setting material can be used as is, of course. New Wave Requiem has very little hard rules content. Five pregen characters, a prewritten adventure with one NPC statblock and five more quick-character NPC writeups, two new Devotions, one alternate power for Auspex ●●●, two brief drug writeups, and four rules hacks/miscellaneous mechanics. Of those, the two Devotions aren't hard to tweak for 2e although one might feel a little underpowered, alternate Auspex ●●● works fine in 2e (although it is kind of a kneecapping, but it was equally so in 1e), two of the rules hacks are basically made redundant with the changes already made in 2e, and the other two hacks work fine. Pregens may have to have traits shuffled but the general idea should work smoothly. I haven't reviewed the narrative/fluff content of the book in awhile, but it's post-clanbook era Requiem, so the setting should be right on track to fit in with 2e's presentation.
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Jul 11, 2018 02:27
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Thing I'm probably most excited about given that they updated the Geist KS to include the Conditions that Haunts give: It's really cool how a starting Sin-Eater PC could straight up replicate most of the plot of No-End House.
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