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Zanzibar Ham posted:Maybe if you find someone espousing zapplez's point of view he'll deem them objective enough. If anyone wants to link to what they recommend of a good starting point they'd give their friends if they wanted to learn more about this subject, I'd appreciate reading something and learning more.
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Jul 10, 2018 23:37
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The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, Occupied Palestinian Territory. I think their monthly bulletins give a good overview of what's occurring. Here's part of their most recent monthly overview, and a part of a past report. The Monthly Humanitarian Bulletin | May 2018 (most recent bulletin) posted:The humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip continues to deteriorate. Gaza has been tense since 30 March, with Palestinians holding weekly demonstrations along Israel’s perimeter fence as part of the ‘Great March of Return’. As of 31 May, Israeli forces had killed 128 Palestinians, the vast majority during the demonstrations, and injured over 13,000, including more than 3,600 by live ammunition, raising serious concerns about excessive use of force. The Monthly Humanitarian Bulletin | January 2017 posted:During January 2017, OCHA recorded the demolition of 140 structures by the Israeli authorities, displacing around 240 Palestinians and affecting another 4,000. The number of structures demolished during the first month of the year was over 50 per cent higher than the monthly average of structures targeted in 2016. All of these demolitions were carried out in Area C and East Jerusalem on the grounds of lack of building permits, although these are nearly impossible to obtain for Palestinians. treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 23:54
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On Monday, the Israeli government banned the import of all goods except food, medicine and 'humanitarian equipment' into Gaza, along with all exports. They've also stopped another boat carrying injured people from leaving.HAARETZ posted:The Israel Navy stopped on Tuesday a boat with eight Palestinian activists on board who had been injured at the Gaza border fence in recent weeks. The activists left the Gaza port for Cyprus in an attempt to break the Israeli naval blockade. treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 00:09
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zapplez posted:If anyone wants to link to what they recommend of a good starting point they'd give their friends if they wanted to learn more about this subject, I'd appreciate reading something and learning more. You're a rereg and conman too dumb to perform your kayfabe for money, attempting to replicate the fraud of foreign interference on NATO powers more cackhandedly than even the most shoddily programmed botnet would ever deign to. Partially because you're too unimaginative for such graft to occur to you, but mostly because you're inept at everything.
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Jul 11, 2018 00:46
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zapplez posted:If anyone wants to link to what they recommend of a good starting point they'd give their friends if they wanted to learn more about this subject, I'd appreciate reading something and learning more. You will never be satisfied by anything anybody has to say in this thread.
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Jul 11, 2018 02:51
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Ultramega posted:You will never be satisfied by anything anybody has to say in this thread. Actually willing to learn more. I come from a perspective of a Canadian kid who grew up with a lot of Jewish classmates and we had holocaust survivors visit our school, and the way Israel was taught to us in history class was in a very western, ww2 way. I'd like to read more about this subject.Especially with being influenced by Canadian politics which almost supports Israel as much as the USA. And the kind of news stories we tended to hear were mostly about bombings on public transit and how progressive Israel is with gay rights. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 04:01
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zapplez posted:Actually willing to learn more. I come from a perspective of a Canadian kid who grew up with a lot of Jewish classmates and we had holocaust survivors visit our school, and the way Israel was taught to us in history class was in a very western, ww2 way. I'd like to read more about this subject.Especially with being influenced by Canadian politics which almost supports Israel as much as the USA. And the kind of news stories we tended to hear were mostly about bombings on public transit and how progressive Israel is with gay rights. consider glancing at earlier posts in this page
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Jul 11, 2018 04:13
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zapplez posted:Actually willing to learn more. I come from a perspective of a Canadian kid who grew up with a lot of Jewish classmates and we had holocaust survivors visit our school, and the way Israel was taught to us in history class was in a very western, ww2 way. I'd like to read more about this subject.Especially with being influenced by Canadian politics which almost supports Israel as much as the USA. And the kind of news stories we tended to hear were mostly about bombings on public transit and how progressive Israel is with gay rights. Unfortunately, there's not a lot out there that can really be called "unbiased". Any narrative is necessarily going to slant in one direction or another, because the truth is never perfectly in the middle, and one side's story usually has more truth to it than the other side's. Facts exist, but there's also plenty of narratives designed to minimize those inconvenient facts or distract away from them. It's better to understand each source's bias, and then look at how different sources with different viewpoints portray the same events, while taking care to double-check anything that you'd normally be inclined to take for granted. For example, thousands of unarmed Palestinian civilians (as well as a number of clearly-marked journalists and medics) were injured by Israeli soldiers in Gaza in just the border-fence protests alone. Meanwhile a bit of cursory searching suggests that the number of Israelis that have been injured by attacks from Gaza in all of 2018 is still in the single-digits, and all of them were uniformed on-duty soldiers. Of course, that looks pretty bad, so Israeli sources will try to distract away from that massive imbalance by focusing only on the number of people actually killed. On top of that, Israeli sources will claim that most of the dead were Hamas members. A lot of people are convinced by that, but that's where the "taking care to double-check what you'd take for granted" bit comes in: despite its popular perception in the West, Hamas is not solely an armed group. It's a political organization which has been the government of Gaza for over a decade, and built its popularity among the Palestinian population primarily by providing robust social services to make up for the gaps in Fatah programs. While Hamas does have an armed wing which does conduct attacks against Israel, it also employs tons of bureaucrats and social workers (just as the Israeli government has both a civilian wing and an armed wing) - and even Israel has not claimed that any of the Hamas members it killed were holding weapons or that they were members of Hamas' armed wing.
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Jul 11, 2018 05:45
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treasured8elief posted:On Monday, the Israeli government banned the import of all goods except food, medicine and 'humanitarian equipment' into Gaza, along with all exports. They've also stopped another boat carrying injured people from leaving. i know it's par for the course, but that idf statement makes my blood boil mind blowing-ly callous
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Jul 11, 2018 05:59
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the provocation of evacuating injured people out of a crumbling ghetto taking advantage of injured and handicapped people, a supply of which the idf so thoughtfully created for them
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Jul 11, 2018 06:02
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:the provocation of evacuating injured people out of a crumbling ghetto guess what happened back in April https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/two-gazan-protesters-legs-amputated-after-israel-denies-entry-1.5993161 quote:Israel Denied Passage for Medical Treatment to Two Palestinians Who Protested in Gaza - and Their Legs Were Amputated the High Court eventually forced the authorities to let one of these two Palestinians go to Ramallah for treatment so that they wouldn't have to amputate his other leg as well the other one's case was dismissed as moot since his only injured leg had already been removed note also that this was in April, over a month before the biggest and most dangerous day in the Gaza protests
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Jul 11, 2018 06:48
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It owns that our governments support a regime that cackles evilly while maiming and wounding indiscriminately
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Jul 11, 2018 10:10
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please knock Mom! posted:It owns that our governments support a regime that cackles evilly while maiming and wounding indiscriminately Only one?
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Jul 11, 2018 10:11
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zapplez posted:Actually willing to learn more. I come from a perspective of a Canadian kid who grew up with a lot of Jewish classmates and we had holocaust survivors visit our school, and the way Israel was taught to us in history class was in a very western, ww2 way. I'd like to read more about this subject. Honestly skimming the thread is a decent place to start. There are good book recommendations scattered here and there. The question of palestine by Said, and maybe one of Benny Morris's books, is a decent place to start.
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Jul 11, 2018 12:48
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Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky, although very dry is a definitive work on not only the conflict, but it contains genuine insights into the civil life of both israel and the occupied territories. I'd start there, personally. quick edit; for example reading about eyewitness accounts of how the IDF will drive into a village at the dead of night, blaring horns and pulling out elderly people into the street to line them up and force them to clean off graffiti on buildings in 40 degree weather is not something that can just be handwaved away. The book is jammed full of examples of israeli callousness not only against human beings but against palestinian culture itself; during the invasion into beiruit a major cultural repository for palestinian artwork and artifacts/literature was ransacked by IDF forces who burnt manuscripts, wiped their asses with prayer rugs, shattered irreplaceable pieces of art and even went so far as to gather a pile of personal commentaries and journals and absolutely foul them by smashing raw eggs and human poo poo into them. Ultramega fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 16:05
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Ytlaya posted:Didn't she also make an Eripsa one? That bot was my favorite, because it was often completely indistinguishable from the real thing. I miss Ken terribly. It feels to me as if I've lost a child.
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Jul 12, 2018 00:52
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Main Paineframe posted:guess what happened back in April I mean, they're not technically incorrect.
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Jul 12, 2018 01:45
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zapplez posted:Actually willing to learn more. I come from a perspective of a Canadian kid who grew up with a lot of Jewish classmates and we had holocaust survivors visit our school, and the way Israel was taught to us in history class was in a very western, ww2 way. I'd like to read more about this subject.Especially with being influenced by Canadian politics which almost supports Israel as much as the USA. And the kind of news stories we tended to hear were mostly about bombings on public transit and how progressive Israel is with gay rights. Read up on the 2014 Gaza War. I used to defend Israel a lot, but during that war I was in one of these threads reading updates from a lot of sources. Seeing the real numbers of the conflict (along with the lies that started it) really made me stop and think "Hey, maybe Israel isn't just out to defend itself". Also read up more on Gaza itself. Its literally an open air ghetto at this point from my understanding. Yes, they elected Hamas, stupid loving move. But not electing Hamas had the exact same outcome for them in the few decades prior, so I can see their reasoning. Israel says Gaza doesn't get poo poo while Hamas is in power; but I don't see Hamas being open to real elections.
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Jul 13, 2018 01:44
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They could elect anyone and Israel would still find an excuse because it's not acting in good faith.
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Jul 13, 2018 02:16
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lollontee posted:You don’t need to think you’re arguing that the BDS is out to destroy Israel to be using the bullshit arguments the people do think so use KJI, nor is anyone impressed by your stated support for what you think counts as a two-state solution to the conflict. It’s the practical measures, and reasons for those measures you propose that everyone here finds unconvincing, that makes your position poo poo and retarded. I'm not Israeli, so I'm not voting for anything. If I was, I'd vote for whatever centrist party was polling the best. I certainly understand that concessions anywhere are difficult. Maybe that makes peace impossible. But there was a real possibility for ending the occupation and that would lead to tangible benefits for Palestinians, and I think there still is given that Likud keeps winning by thin margins. And I agree 100% about your point about how Israel could end BDS tomorrow if it wanted to. Hence my continuing rage towards Netanyahu and Likud. But one reason BDS would end tomorrow is because it's had minimal impact. Even settlement boycotts, which aren't BDS (and I have no problem with) can't pass European parliaments. The whole point of my argument there is that there needs to be a laser focused, tactical approach on ending the occupation as quickly as possible. I haven't "refuse to sacrifice anything as an act of good faith" - I'm a strong supporter of unilaterally ending the Gaza boycott, and withdrawing from settlements outside of the parameters given for land swaps in international negotiations. And I think it's possible, there's precedent from Sinai, Lebanon, and the recent aborted attempts at peace with Syria that any settlement can be dismantled. I think Israel closing their border crossing to Gaza a few days ago in response to kite attacks is collective punishment, and both wrong and counterproductive. I just think collective punishment in the opposite direction is similarly wrong and counterproductive. ANIME AKBAR posted:So at least you've clarified your dumb position that right of return is an all-or-nothing matter for you. It's easy to guess why you take such a position, since anything in between "full repatriation and reparation" and "gently caress you, stay out" is a lot harder for you to dismiss. So you pretend that there simply are no in-between options. Clarified? I've been consistent on this. I'm not talking about public negotiating positions. My position is about policy. The demand hasn't been "boycott Israel until they give a symbolic token that won't actually be used." If that's your actual position, state it, instead of one that isn't. And note, we can draw an analogy here to the whole "recognize Israel as a Jewish state" canard, which I don't remotely care about, but is similarly a symbolic nothing that refusing to grant ends up being a huge PR bonanza for the Israeli right. lollontee posted:What was the last israeli concession? Israel made a good faith effort to withdraw from Gaza in 2005. They hosed up in not giving the Palestinian Authority credit for it, but the plan legitimately was to leave it alone until Hamas took power. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jul 13, 2018 |
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Jul 13, 2018 02:46
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Kim Jong Il posted:I think Israel closing their border crossing to Gaza a few days ago in response to kite attacks is collective punishment, and both wrong and counterproductive. I just think collective punishment in the opposite direction is similarly wrong and counterproductive. Did you just imply that a blockade of essential goods is morally equivalent to tying a strip of burning cloth to an inflated condom?
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Jul 13, 2018 03:44
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zapplez posted:Actually willing to learn more. I come from a perspective of a Canadian kid who grew up with a lot of Jewish classmates and we had holocaust survivors visit our school, and the way Israel was taught to us in history class was in a very western, ww2 way. I'd like to read more about this subject.Especially with being influenced by Canadian politics which almost supports Israel as much as the USA. And the kind of news stories we tended to hear were mostly about bombings on public transit and how progressive Israel is with gay rights. I can sympathize, and I imagine a lot of people here can as well. When you grow up in the US or Canada you're going to generally only hear about the Israel-Palestine conflict from the point of view of "Plucky little Israel" and it's hard to dispel that. Israeli talking points about them being the region's "only democracy" and such also resonate. Eventually, though, a lot of people find out that it's not as simple as they were told and you're utterly powerless to break the narrative you're surrounded in, so it's hard to restrain yourself when old familiar platitudes arise. What finally broke me was the realization that Israel's staunches supporters ALWAYS instill inordinate responsibility on people with no agency in the matter. The idea that Israel will cease to exist if Palestinians were simply annexed and given equal rights as a bi-national state is also fundamentally alien to me, as an American, and such nativist rhetoric coming from a state born of conquest within my grandfather's lifetime just broke me. I like much about Israeli society, but I haven't liked an Israeli leader since Rabin was killed. Grammarchist fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Jul 13, 2018 |
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Jul 13, 2018 04:44
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Kim Jong Il posted:I'm not Israeli, so I'm not voting for anything. If I was, I'd vote for whatever centrist party was polling the best. Enlightened centrism strikes again.
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Jul 13, 2018 05:17
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Main Paineframe posted:Did you just imply that a blockade of essential goods is morally equivalent to tying a strip of burning cloth to an inflated condom? Of course not, he's saying it's morally equivalent to not buying a sodastream.
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Jul 13, 2018 05:35
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Main Paineframe posted:Did you just imply that a blockade of essential goods is morally equivalent to tying a strip of burning cloth to an inflated condom? Pretty sure he just said its wrong, and he doesn't agree with the actions of the blockade
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Jul 13, 2018 07:31
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zapplez posted:Pretty sure he just said its wrong, and he doesn't agree with the actions of the blockade Jaywalking, like slavery, is wrong.
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Jul 13, 2018 12:28
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Main Paineframe posted:Did you just imply that a blockade of essential goods is morally equivalent to tying a strip of burning cloth to an inflated condom? Don't be disingenuous. He said it's morally equivalent to refusing to buy a SodaStream.
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Jul 13, 2018 12:41
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pro starcraft loser posted:Yes, they elected Hamas, stupid loving move. But not electing Hamas had the exact same outcome for them in the few decades prior, so I can see their reasoning. Israel says Gaza doesn't get poo poo while Hamas is in power; but I don't see Hamas being open to real elections. it's entirely israel's fault the palestinians voted in hamas for the very reason you stated.
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Jul 13, 2018 13:03
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/15/israel-turmoil-bill-allowing-jews-arabs-segregated Well who could have seen that coming...
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Jul 15, 2018 13:49
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there's also been some rockets and airstrikes I hadn't heard about https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/15/israel-gaza-most-painful-strike-hamas-since-2014-benjamin-netanyahu
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Jul 15, 2018 14:01
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quote:Israel says it is defending its sovereign border You're doing a pretty piss poor job at it, given how much of Israel is leaking out into the occupied territories.
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Jul 15, 2018 14:29
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Argas posted:They could elect anyone and Israel would still find an excuse because it's not acting in good faith. Someone said Israel is the essence of fygm nimby Americana, triple distilled.
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Jul 15, 2018 15:59
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zapplez posted:Ok. What would a map look like of Israel and Palestine if the Palestinians got to rewrite it tomorrow? "Ah sorry if that came off a bit greasy, how about *empties entire contents of an Arby's grease trap into discussion*."
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Jul 15, 2018 19:26
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There's a GoFundMe to recoup the costs of the flights Israel cancelled after some folks on a Birthright trip did a walk-out to see what life was actually like in occupied Palestine. I threw them a couple bucks out of spite against the propagandists behind "birthright trips" in the first place, and welcome you to do the same.
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Jul 17, 2018 21:17
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Mr. Lobe posted:There's a GoFundMe to recoup the costs of the flights Israel cancelled after some folks on a Birthright trip did a walk-out to see what life was actually like in occupied Palestine. why, oh why, did i read the loving comments
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Jul 17, 2018 21:20
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https://twitter.com/israelmfa/status/1019195057604321280?s=21 Jesus loving Christ
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Jul 17, 2018 21:43
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https://twitter.com/sky7i/status/1019316912843415552
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Jul 17, 2018 21:46
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But Goliath was killed by a slingshot... Though I can't really think of a good metaphor offhand so eh.
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Jul 17, 2018 21:53
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FlamingLiberal posted:https://twitter.com/israelmfa/status/1019195057604321280?s=21 they're making Arson Kites look pretty rad, honestly
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Jul 17, 2018 22:50
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Maybe someone could mod in arson kites into a Civ-type game?
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Jul 17, 2018 23:00
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