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Taintrunner posted:Would there be any downside to say, replacing all of one of colonists limbs with advanced bionics? Just asking... for the purposes of science... Are they a prosthetophobe? Are you playing a version with the Body Purist trait? No? no issues there. E: Oh, apparently in 1.0 anyone who doesn't have Transhumanist (the new prosthetophile) trait gets a small penalty for each and every bionic they have. Culminating in like a -30 for too much. IIRC the though on the panel is transhuman horror. Ashsaber fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 07:35
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virgin for Jesus posted:Check here for Prepare Carefully: Wow, already updated! Thanks!
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Jul 11, 2018 08:24
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Ashsaber posted:Are they a prosthetophobe? Are you playing a version with the Body Purist trait? No? no issues there. loving Christ, Tynan.
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Jul 11, 2018 13:41
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Ashsaber posted:Are they a prosthetophobe? Are you playing a version with the Body Purist trait? No? no issues there. This guy wrote a loving book about game design
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Jul 11, 2018 13:57
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I've been messing about with dev mode a little. I can't find exactly what 'pass to world' does for pawns; most people just seem to use it as a way to disappear pawns without penalty. If I pass a pawn to world, is there a chance they'll appear later as part of a faction? I'd like to make a few interesting characters my colony has a slim change of encountering.
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Jul 11, 2018 13:58
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Ashsaber posted:Are they a prosthetophobe? Are you playing a version with the Body Purist trait? No? no issues there. Good. If you turn your pawn into Gunter Herman you pay the price.
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Jul 11, 2018 14:03
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Danaru posted:This guy wrote a loving book about game design This never ceases to amaze and amuse me
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Jul 11, 2018 14:06
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multijoe posted:Good. If you turn your pawn into Gunter Herman you pay the price. I agree, all the mechs in Deus Ex had some real mental issues. Keep mood penalties for cybernetics, remove them for nanotech. 
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Jul 11, 2018 14:07
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So just joywire the cyborgs then?
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Jul 11, 2018 14:08
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Nah just make the scenario with More Traits mod and give everyone 100% chance of Transhumanist. I can somewhat understand the horror of being lined up and all body parts replaced “just because.” But if your leg had been blown off, an eye shot out, and both arms chewed up by squirrels, then getting those replaced would make me happy since I’d no longer be disfigured or crippled. Maybe that opens another tier of bionics, ones that are 15% not as effective but apparently a lot goes into their design to make them look and feel human, rather than machine.
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Jul 11, 2018 14:19
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HelloSailorSign posted:But if your leg had been blown off, an eye shot out, and both arms chewed up by squirrels, then getting those replaced would make me happy since I’d no longer be disfigured or crippled. If we're talking "realism" then you'd want a penalty for waking up to find the meat leg you had yesterday is gone and has been replaced, but a reduced/no penalty for someone who has had no leg for months who can suddenly walk under their own power. If we're talking gameplay, flat upgrades tend to be worse gameplay than trade-offs.
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Jul 11, 2018 14:45
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I'd say a penalty for removing functional parts to replace them with cybernetics makes sense, while a penalty for replacing severely damaged or nonfunctional parts with cybernetics doesn't.
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Jul 11, 2018 14:47
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Keeshhound posted:loving Christ, Tynan. Eh, that's not a bad idea in that it makes it a bit more interesting whether you want to put a bionic in someone, because without it there's literally no reason not to do it. Having it normally be a tradeoff is interesting, and a couple of points of mood would normally not be a problem. Plus you can always go full cyborg on the odd person with the trait. Especially considering the game draws from people who live in extremely low tech societies it'd be a bit weird if everyone was super hype to get turned into the borg. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 15:05
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multijoe posted:Good. If you turn your pawn into Gunter Herman you pay the price. Gunther loved being a hyper violent cyborg, though. His only issue was that he wanted more extreme augments and he felt like he was being passed over for not being top of the line any more. OwlFancier posted:Eh, that's not a bad idea in that it makes it a bit more interesting whether you want to put a bionic in someone, because without it there's literally no reason not to do it. Having it normally be a tradeoff is interesting, and a couple of points of mood would normally not be a problem. Plus you can always go full cyborg on the odd person with the trait. They already had a tradeoff in that they were expensive, though. I haven't gotten to the point where I can manufacture bionics yet, but unless he made them cheap to produce this seems like an unnecessary nerf, since they were already pretty late game in my experience. Plus, the mood penalty seems like a weird way to make them a tradeoff, since once you've established a solid colony it gets pretty easy to negate those by just giving colonists nice rooms, or a joywire if you want to go full RoboCop. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 15:07
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OwlFancier posted:Eh, that's not a bad idea in that it makes it a bit more interesting whether you want to put a bionic in someone, because without it there's literally no reason not to do it. Having it normally be a tradeoff is interesting, and a couple of points of mood would normally not be a problem. Plus you can always go full cyborg on the odd person with the trait. The chance of failed surgery is always a reason to not do it (assuming you play on permadeath like you should be)
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Jul 11, 2018 15:13
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Oh jesus christ, 1.0 is out? I'm gonna have to update my guide >_<
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Jul 11, 2018 15:14
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IcePhoenix posted:The chance of failed surgery is always a reason to not do it (assuming you play on permadeath like you should be) You can't assume people are playing on permadeath and that's largely a binary choice between "do I have a doctor and a proper hospital and medicine, y/n" A chance roll initially for an indefinite benefit in a game with saves, is a worse game design decision than having long term tradeoffs, because it just encourages people to use the saves. Keeshhound posted:Plus, the mood penalty seems like a weird way to make them a tradeoff, since once you've established a solid colony it gets pretty easy to negate those by just giving colonists nice rooms, or a joywire if you want to go full RoboCop. The mood penalties are a good way to do it precisely in the sense that a small mood malus is easy to offset, but a high one isn't, especially if you want to get work speed bonus and inspirations. Which means that using a couple of bionics in a stable colony isn't going to be a problem but if you want to Adam Jensen the poo poo out of someone, they need to be of the right temperament. A bionic is still always going to be preferable to a missing limb, and in most cases is also going to be preferable to a normal limb in a decently appointed colony, but heavy modification is going to be restricted to prosthophiles which doesn't seem like a bad thing given how powerful those people can end up being. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 15:20
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I guess the other thing that bugs me is that a lot of the 1.0 changes feel like nerfs to things that were powerful in previous versions to delay advancement in lieu of actually expanding the endgame.
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Jul 11, 2018 15:23
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Eh, there's not an enormous amount you can do to expand the endgame without just making insane levels of power creep, which is what most endgame expansion mods end up doing. Slowing down progression (and adding more in the middle like Medieval Times does) is probably the best way to do it, really. Because otherwise you have to start restricting access to endgame stuff in weird ways because getting a piece of endgame equipment will break the rest of the game in half. Or adding player-only things like the cthulhu cult mod. If you're trying to keep content usable across all parts of the game you can't really add much more on top of the current endgame. Especially as combat is already hilariously lethal in the lategame. If you wanted to add more lategame meta goals like building a spaceship or migrating across the planet that's probably a bit outside the scope of the base game to be honest. As would, I think, be detailed simulation of bionics and adaptation to them, though that is something I'd like to see pursued in Psychology perhaps. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 15:27
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OwlFancier posted:You can't assume people are playing on permadeath If you're not playing on permadeath then nothing matters because you'll just savescum if you don't like what happens, so I always assume permadeath when people have "do I do the thing" questions. Seriously, playing on permadeath makes the game so much more fun because you actually have to deal with the consequences of what happens.
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Jul 11, 2018 15:30
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IcePhoenix posted:If you're not playing on permadeath then nothing matters because you'll just savescum if you don't like what happens, so I always assume permadeath when people have "do I do the thing" questions Games with save systems can't just ignore the fact that some of their design decisions will lead people to want to savescum, if they do that is a problem with the game, and you can design around it. Some things are unavoidable but you can do things like seeding events earlier so that you can't roll back to a recent save to bypass them, while simultaneously ensuring that the game doesn't just dump unwinnable events on you leading you to want to reroll it. Surgery I think would be better implemented with a lot less random chance, or having the random chance very rarely kill the person involved but incurring a long recovery time that you may have to anticipate. Something like, say: if the chance of success is greater than 50% you can never actually die from it, but complications can keep you bedridden for up to two or three seasons. If it's above 70% then you can never suffer permanent damage, and the maximum convalescent period is one season less. Also neither situation will ever destroy the bionic. This retains the capacity for hilarious fuckups but removes the things that are most likely to cause people to actually want to reload, because they're recoverable. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 15:35
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The big thing I'd like to see is an expansion of the diplomacy system. Even really basic stuff like trading agreements for regular caravans or defensive alliances could add a lot to pretty much every part of the game and help encourage people to use the travel system more.
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Jul 11, 2018 15:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh jesus christ, 1.0 is out? I'm gonna have to update my guide >_< no it's in a beta branch
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Jul 11, 2018 15:59
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OwlFancier posted:Games with save systems can't just ignore the fact that some of their design decisions will lead people to want to savescum, if they do that is a problem with the game, and you can design around it. Some things are unavoidable but you can do things like seeding events earlier so that you can't roll back to a recent save to bypass them, while simultaneously ensuring that the game doesn't just dump unwinnable events on you leading you to want to reroll it. that's fine but it doesn't really do anything to change my point also tynan has eased up on the surgery stuff in recent patches iirc
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Jul 11, 2018 16:19
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IcePhoenix posted:that's fine but it doesn't really do anything to change my point
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Jul 11, 2018 16:24
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Splicer posted:It's as relevant to your post as yours was to OwlFanciers. I don't recall saying anything about relevancy
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Jul 11, 2018 16:26
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Save scum does matter because this is a story based game and sometimes, "they came to the planet and died to malaria five minutes later" isnt a satisfying story .
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Jul 11, 2018 16:26
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Ashsaber posted:Are they a prosthetophobe? Are you playing a version with the Body Purist trait? No? no issues there. Just doubling back to remind everyone that Shadowrun exists and that there is a penalty for being an unrepentant chromejob. That said, that -30 should really morph into traits that make OTHER people uncomfortable once you get to cyber zombie levels of augmentation. edit: Annnnnd Rimworld's discord just reminded me that they are a bunch of shut in neckbeards, with a dude defending fancy prison cells on the basis that if you have enough golden statues and tube tvs no one should want to leave. After all, if he had such a fancy room he'd have no problem spending every hour of his life in there. 
Warmachine fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 16:28
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It baffles me how many people fail to realize that "I can leave whenever I want" is kind of a big deal.
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Jul 11, 2018 16:52
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Don't loving get me started on how the Rimworld community feels about their treatment of prisoners
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Jul 11, 2018 16:55
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that sort of poo poo is a backdrop to every game that says anything about anything, it seems. every time a new Tropico game comes out, Kalypso's forums get a wave of shitposting from weirdo atheists the world over about how it's absurd that religion is still a primary need, where i live people live fine without religion and furthermore-- you know, ignoring that tropico is specifically a Cuba Simulator, and that subsection of the world has some of the highest church participation rates on the planet.
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Jul 11, 2018 17:08
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Oh hey, I think I forgot in that earlier post, the -30 mood penalty from going full cyborg? Is a seperate penalty that stacks with the penalties from each individual part. Yeah. Granted, this is something I saw on Reddit a week or two back and didn't think much of at the time since when 1.0 comes out someone will immediately make a mod to take that out.
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Jul 11, 2018 17:16
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I mean if you gave me a swanky bed and an internet connection i'd probably run up to a rimworld colony and surrender just to be taken prisoner. I'm willing to risk the not inconsiderable chance of being eaten too.
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Jul 11, 2018 17:19
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The whole "changing your body destroys your soul maaaaan" feels like an incredibly obsolete trope that only really works for games like Shadowrun where it works thematically because spirits and magic exist in universe too and are tied to your literal soul. It doesn't work thematically for Rimworld at all, and it absolutely didn't need to be 'balanced' this way
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Jul 11, 2018 17:29
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Don't loving get me started on how the Rimworld community feels about their treatment of prisoners Please go on. Just a brief explanation. Danaru posted:The whole "changing your body destroys your soul maaaaan" feels like an incredibly obsolete trope that only really works for games like Shadowrun where it works thematically because spirits and magic exist in universe too and are tied to your literal soul. It doesn't work thematically for Rimworld at all, and it absolutely didn't need to be 'balanced' this way Well I can see that there might be a psychological impact on body identity. You have an image of yourself in your mind and you could call this a "soul". Soul can mean lots of different things to different people. Regarde Aduck fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 17:39
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Regarde Aduck posted:Please go on. Just a brief explanation. One of the most used mods for Rimworld is an XML change that completely removes all negative thoughts for organ harvesting your prisoners to death. The prevailing opinion in the Rimworld community (which loves to joke about human leather hats/furniture) is that it's stupid that your colonists care about what happens to someone who was trying to kill them. Raiders are bad people and colonists should be neutral at worst when they are brutally murdered and harvested for spare parts. What's empathy? If I were on the Rimworld, I certainly wouldn't be bothered if other human beings were being butchered and eaten around me! They're bad people. They also do not believe that being forced to join your colony or rot in prison indefinitely should incur any kind of bad feelings for a recruit -- this is a common sticking point Rimworld players have with the Psychology mod, which models the awkwardness that would exist for a while after a prisoner agrees to join. The community generally believes that prisoners genuinely ought to be happy to leave their old lives and families behind for an existence of nonstop menial labor and sporadic violence in a group full of people you barely know except for how they held you in a cell for months and demanded you join them. Put more briefly, it's a community full of Gamers. That really ought to tell you all you need to know about their opinions on things like treating other people with respect and dignity.
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Jul 11, 2018 17:47
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Danaru posted:The whole "changing your body destroys your soul maaaaan" feels like an incredibly obsolete trope that only really works for games like Shadowrun where it works thematically because spirits and magic exist in universe too and are tied to your literal soul. It doesn't work thematically for Rimworld at all, and it absolutely didn't need to be 'balanced' this way As an atheist I see no problem with carving my my body for minor stat gains and furthermore
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Jul 11, 2018 17:57
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Regarde Aduck posted:Well I can see that there might be a psychological impact on body identity. You have an image of yourself in your mind and you could call this a "soul". Soul can mean lots of different things to different people. That's kind of the problem, though; it's being applied to pretty much everyone, aside from the prosthophiles/transhumanists. Apparently there's going to be a threshold before the negative effects set in, but even so, it's a little weird to say that everyone is going to react negatively to having their bits replaced with bits that function better. Cup Runneth Over posted:They also do not believe that being forced to join your colony or rot in prison indefinitely should incur any kind of bad feelings for a recruit -- this is a common sticking point Rimworld players have with the Psychology mod, which models the awkwardness that would exist for a while after a prisoner agrees to join. The community generally believes that prisoners genuinely ought to be happy to leave their old lives and families behind for an existence of nonstop menial labor and sporadic violence in a group full of people you barely know except for how they held you in a cell for months and demanded you join them. I'm kind of surprised psychology doesn't add a mood malus for keeping someone prisoner for more than a season, really. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 18:06
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Danaru posted:The whole "changing your body destroys your soul maaaaan" feels like an incredibly obsolete trope that only really works for games like Shadowrun where it works thematically because spirits and magic exist in universe too and are tied to your literal soul. It doesn't work thematically for Rimworld at all, and it absolutely didn't need to be 'balanced' this way Also in the Shadowrun world, at least in one of the computer games in the setting, being An Actual Psycho/Sociopath might negate/offset the whole "Excessively chroming up your body literally makes your soul stop recognising your body" and considering the general discussion going on right now itt, it fits.
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Jul 11, 2018 18:10
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I feel like it should vary depending on the pawn. Defaulting to huge mood penalties like that because balance seems silly to me. I imagine some people would just not care while others might be a bit hesitant but then think that it's rad as hell after they get used to the mechanical arm and hey do the other one too!
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Jul 11, 2018 18:20
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