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Paulywallywalrus posted:Edit: to bring it back around to the subject. I think the issue of what Romans said or thought about human sacrifice is a bizzare study. They have an incredible ability to be tone deaf to their own propaganda when looking at their own society. So Carthage probably burned babies alive but the Romans emptied several towns and cities of everything and marched out in ankle deep blood and admit to it. This is why I say Carthage probably did sacrifice kids and adults. If the Romans really felt killing children was wrong in whole they would have omitted all their own accounts of this kind of act or would have avoided bringing it up about their enmies. I'm no expert, but I don't think an ancient Roman would have seen this as a contradiction. In the first case, they're killing their own people, while the Romans are slaughtering enemies in war.
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Jul 6, 2018 05:38
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Elyv posted:I'm no expert, but I don't think an ancient Roman would have seen this as a contradiction. In the first case, they're killing their own people, while the Romans are slaughtering enemies in war. No they wouldn't but they are pretty aware of their narratives in a general sense. I think Augustus is a good example of this and really shows the Roman ability to self censor. As I recall he was known for controlling the dialogue in literature and picking out exactly these kinds of contradictions for removal from his personal narrative.
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Jul 6, 2018 14:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNSXB4i4fE Just watched this documentary about the market for forgeries of classical art. It's pretty interesting and I'd recommend it. While on one hand you kind of want to cheer for the enterprising artists scamming billionaires in the private collectors market. On the other there are more sinister undertones -- a chemical analysis of one forged bronze head reveals it was in fact produced from ancient bronze. Probably the manufacturers melted down several thousand Roman and Hellenistic coins for the raw material.
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Jul 8, 2018 18:30
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On that note one of things loving with museums dealing with Inka stuff is that they made mold formed ceramic vessels. Looters have found the molds are basically producing vessels identical to ones found in excavations. You can TL date em to check the date but thats pretty cost intensive and damaging. So there is currently and unknown amount of modern made Inka empire style pottery floating around.
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Jul 8, 2018 23:50
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this isn't new but i hadn't seen it before: akhenaten's new religion was interesting, but his city seems a tad...unwholesome.
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Jul 10, 2018 20:25
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HEY GUNS posted:this isn't new but i hadn't seen it before: Wow, that's dark. The comments have some bad takes from random people, but also some interesting clarifications from the author of the article.
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Jul 10, 2018 22:27
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HEY GUNS posted:this isn't new but i hadn't seen it before: Its okay because the average lifespan was 25 so ten year Olds are pretty much the same as 30 year olds back then.
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Jul 10, 2018 23:37
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quote:Akhenaten ruled Egypt for 17 years, he was probably the father of Tutankhamun and was almost certainly a little bit crackers.
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Jul 11, 2018 12:22
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He also married Tutankhamun's half-sister (who also was married to Tutankhamun ).
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Jul 11, 2018 13:07
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Alhazred posted:He also married Tutankhamun's half-sister (who also was married to Tutankhamun ). Well, possibly. The record seems murky.
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Jul 11, 2018 19:27
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The Egyptian royals were pretty alright with incest if Cleopatra's family tree is anything to go on.
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Jul 11, 2018 19:31
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Those chins don't lie
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Jul 11, 2018 19:51
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Samuel Clemens posted:The Egyptian royals were pretty alright with incest if Cleopatra's family tree is anything to go on. The Ptolemaic Dynasty were especially incestuous due to being ethnically Greek and were afraid that marrying into the local nobility would destroy their family.
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Jul 11, 2018 20:31
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Samuel Clemens posted:The Egyptian royals were pretty alright with incest if Cleopatra's family tree is anything to go on. Oh, definitely. But whether this extended to father-daughter marriages is more controversial (although there's fairly compelling evidence for it), and whether Ankhenaten specifically married his daughters is even more so.
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Jul 11, 2018 20:34
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:The Ptolemaic Dynasty were especially incestuous due to being ethnically Greek and were afraid that marrying into the local nobility would destroy their family. Brother-sister marriages go a lot further back in Egypt, differnce being that concubines would often be the ones actually bearing heirs. It’s all kinda squicky but hey, better than the Habsburg doctrine.
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Jul 11, 2018 21:59
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:It’s all kinda squicky but hey, better than the Habsburg doctrine. Not really, Tutankhamun was an inbred mutant.
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Jul 11, 2018 23:44
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Alhazred posted:Not really, Tutankhamun was an inbred mutant. I;m thinking about thos burgs
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Jul 11, 2018 23:47
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Samuel Clemens posted:The Egyptian royals were pretty alright with incest if Cleopatra's family tree is anything to go on. cleopatra lived over 1300 years after akhenaten so I think it probably isn't?
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Jul 11, 2018 23:57
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cleopatra's family tree is at least partially fabrication; some of the ptolemies most likely pretended that children from outside affairs were in fact products of their marriage. the ptolemies near the end of the dynasty were too healthy to have been the product of nearly three centuries of ceaseless inbreeding like the records would indicate - that's roughly the time span for turning into charles II habsburg on the other hand the old dynasties like akhenaten's seem to have been entirely serious about it Jazerus fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 00:19
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HEY GUNS posted:this isn't new but i hadn't seen it before: Can't believe Sinuhe lied
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Jul 12, 2018 00:36
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Alhazred posted:Not really, Tutankhamun was an inbred mutant. Yeah well those New Kingdom degenerates weren’t true egyptians.
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Jul 12, 2018 01:54
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Alhazred posted:Not really, Tutankhamun was an inbred mutant. Tutankhamun's family tree was more of a tree trunk of brothers and sisters getting it on, not that complicated compared to Charles "all of my grandparents are descended from the same royal couple" II of Spain creating new levels of inbred. I'm honestly surprised these royal lines even later as long as they did.
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Jul 12, 2018 02:56
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Jazerus posted:cleopatra's family tree is at least partially fabrication; some of the ptolemies most likely pretended that children from outside affairs were in fact products of their marriage. the ptolemies near the end of the dynasty were too healthy to have been the product of nearly three centuries of ceaseless inbreeding like the records would indicate - that's roughly the time span for turning into charles II habsburg Bad effects from inbreeding are not guaranteed; maybe the Ptolemies just didn't have many unhealthy recessive genes.
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Jul 12, 2018 03:56
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Okay what eastern empire prostitute is up there in the thread title this time
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Jul 12, 2018 04:07
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Silver2195 posted:Bad effects from inbreeding are not guaranteed; maybe the Ptolemies just didn't have many unhealthy recessive genes.
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Jul 12, 2018 06:10
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Jazerus posted:cleopatra's family tree is at least partially fabrication; some of the ptolemies most likely pretended that children from outside affairs were in fact products of their marriage. the ptolemies near the end of the dynasty were too healthy to have been the product of nearly three centuries of ceaseless inbreeding like the records would indicate According to this they weren't that healthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty#Medical_analysis
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Jul 12, 2018 10:11
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Jack2142 posted:Its okay because the average lifespan was 25 so ten year Olds are pretty much the same as 30 year olds back then. This is something that confuses me. I keep seeing references to the fact that the average Egyptian who survived childhood would conk out at about 30. In comparison, early modern people who reached adulthood could expect to see sixty. Is there any reason that Egyptian lifespans were so short? Can't have anything to do with too much beer, violence, and bad medicine, because the early modern period had all those things as well.
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Jul 12, 2018 10:14
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FAUXTON posted:Okay what eastern empire prostitute is up there in the thread title this time I googled it and got the translation of "Men with shrivelled cocks and gaping assholes". Same.
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Jul 12, 2018 10:27
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Mr Enderby posted:This is something that confuses me. I keep seeing references to the fact that the average Egyptian who survived childhood would conk out at about 30. In comparison, early modern people who reached adulthood could expect to see sixty. Is there any reason that Egyptian lifespans were so short? Can't have anything to do with too much beer, violence, and bad medicine, because the early modern period had all those things as well. Judging from A Quick Googling a lot of claims of 30-year lifespans (once you survived childhood) seem to cite a study from 2000 of 400 mostly upper-class remains in Thebes, finding "amazing incidences of bone deformities, which point to a chronic anaemia, blood-forming defects, Vitamin C deficiencies (scurvy) and not enough Vitamin D (rickets)" as well as high rates of infections, spinal conditions and cancer Assuming 30-year lifespans among the rich is correct (which seems weird as hell to me but what do I know), dudes like Ramses II must have seemed immortal to normal folks
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Jul 12, 2018 10:40
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Freudian posted:I googled it and got the translation of "Men with shrivelled cocks and gaping assholes". Yep. Came across it in my reading today and it seemed like an excellent thread title.
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Jul 12, 2018 10:58
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So which Aristophanes play is it from?
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Jul 12, 2018 11:24
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peer posted:Judging from A Quick Googling a lot of claims of 30-year lifespans (once you survived childhood) seem to cite a study from 2000 of 400 mostly upper-class remains in Thebes, finding "amazing incidences of bone deformities, which point to a chronic anaemia, blood-forming defects, Vitamin C deficiencies (scurvy) and not enough Vitamin D (rickets)" as well as high rates of infections, spinal conditions and cancer quote:Assuming 30-year lifespans among the rich is correct (which seems weird as hell to me but what do I know), dudes like Ramses II must have seemed immortal to normal folks
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Jul 12, 2018 11:43
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Grevling posted:So which Aristophanes play is it from? It's from a poem attacking the administration of Ioannes Tzimiskes. I cannot believe I spelled his surname correctly on the first try.
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Jul 12, 2018 12:23
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If the cocks are so shriveled, how did the asses come to be gaping?
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Jul 12, 2018 12:51
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:If the cocks are so shriveled, how did the asses come to be gaping?  
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Jul 12, 2018 13:30
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peer posted:Judging from A Quick Googling a lot of claims of 30-year lifespans (once you survived childhood) seem to cite a study from 2000 of 400 mostly upper-class remains in Thebes, finding "amazing incidences of bone deformities, which point to a chronic anaemia, blood-forming defects, Vitamin C deficiencies (scurvy) and not enough Vitamin D (rickets)" as well as high rates of infections, spinal conditions and cancer Nerlich has a bunch of interesting articles. Check out fig. 3 from this one https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/486467/ for a badly owned skeleton e: omg the descriptions of these guys' dental statuses I wanna hork aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 14:05
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How do you even end up with scurvy as an upper-class Egyptian person after, like, the Paleolithic, assuming you aren't found in extreme circumstances like being marooned on a desert island? Like doesn't most meat have sufficient vitamin C to ward off scurvy even if eaten sparingly with no vegetable sources? Is there some vice of the Egyptian rich and famous that causes poor dietary absorption as a side effect? E: it's early and I said Greek instead of Egyptian w.r.t. Thebes. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 14:19
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It could have been because of a highly restricted diet as young children. Same with how they got rickets in a country where it's sunny all the time.
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Jul 12, 2018 14:54
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FAUXTON posted:How do you even end up with scurvy as an upper-class Egyptian person after, like, the Paleolithic, assuming you aren't found in extreme circumstances like being marooned on a desert island? My guess would be some extremely weird sub-caste type thing, like temple priests under extremely specific diet regimens where they have to drink only the blood of the sacred bull, or some poo poo. So what looks like "upper class skeletons" is actually a distinct social group. EDIT: I will be scientifically unprofessional as gently caress and just go look in Herodotus even though he's a thousand years later: quote:They are religious beyond measure, more than any other people; and the following are among their customs. They drink from cups of bronze, which they clean out daily; this is done not by some but by all. [2] They are especially careful always to wear newly-washed linen. They practise circumcision for cleanliness' sake; for they would rather be clean than more becoming. Their priests shave the whole body every other day, so that no lice or anything else foul may infest them as they attend upon the gods. [3] The priests wear a single linen garment and sandals of papyrus:20 they may have no other kind of clothing or footwear. Twice a day and twice every night they wash in cold water. Their religious observances are, one may say, innumerable. [4] But also they receive many benefits: they do not consume or spend anything of their own; sacred food is cooked for them, beef and goose are brought in great abundance to each man every day, and wine of grapes is given to them, too. They may not eat fish. [5] The Egyptians sow no beans in their country; if any grow, they will not eat them either raw or cooked; the priests cannot endure even to see them, considering beans an unclean kind of legume. Many (not only one) are dedicated to the service of each god. One of these is the high priest; and when a high priest dies, his son succeeds to his office. 38. So my guess: priestly caste, including some members of the royal family, restricted to a diet entirely of sacred beef and goose and wine and nothing else. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 15:00
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They clearly did not have the favor of the gods. There can be no other explanation. 
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Jul 12, 2018 15:12
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