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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Circling back to this line of posts, because I have been intending to reread Critique of the Gotha Program and finally got around to it quote:Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor. quote:Labour power is only saleable so far as it preserves the means of production in their capacity of capital, reproduces its own value as capital, and yields in unpaid labour a source of additional capital. The conditions of its sale, whether more or less favourable to the labourer, include therefore the necessity of its constant re-selling, and the constantly extended reproduction of all wealth in the shape of capital. Wages, as we have seen, by their very nature, always imply the performance of a certain quantity of unpaid labour on the part of the labourer. Altogether, irrespective of the case of a rise of wages with a falling price of labour, &c., such an increase only means at best a quantitative diminution of the unpaid labour that the worker has to supply. This diminution can never reach the point at which it would threaten the system itself. quote:Let us now picture to ourselves, by way of change, a community of free individuals, carrying on their work with the means of production in common, in which the labour power of all the different individuals is consciously applied as the combined labour power of the community. All the characteristics of Robinson’s labour are here repeated, but with this difference, that they are social, instead of individual. Everything produced by him was exclusively the result of his own personal labour, and therefore simply an object of use for himself. The total product of our community is a social product. One portion serves as fresh means of production and remains social. But another portion is consumed by the members as means of subsistence. A distribution of this portion amongst them is consequently necessary. The mode of this distribution will vary with the productive organisation of the community, and the degree of historical development attained by the producers. We will assume, but merely for the sake of a parallel with the production of commodities, that the share of each individual producer in the means of subsistence is determined by his labour time. Labour time would, in that case, play a double part. Its apportionment in accordance with a definite social plan maintains the proper proportion between the different kinds of work to be done and the various wants of the community. On the other hand, it also serves as a measure of the portion of the common labour borne by each individual, and of his share in the part of the total product destined for individual consumption. The social relations of the individual producers, with regard both to their labour and to its products, are in this case perfectly simple and intelligible, and that with regard not only to production but also to distribution You're going to need more than a paragraph of the Gotha Programme to justify having more than just birthmarks of capitalism in "socialist economies". Just a bit prior to the quote from the critique that everyone cites he specifically talks about the total social product. The workers aren't estranged from their labor in a "socialist economy" like in capitalism, they produce for a total social product that individuals can take what they are allotted. Which, they are allotted based on their working time and not by paying with money wages they receive. You can argue that these certificates are a wage but for Marx wage is a specific thing, and wage labor is one of the core aspects of capitalism. That wouldn't be just a birthmark of capitalism, that'd require the same social relations (estrangement, private property, wage labor, commodity production) of capitalism and calling it socialism.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:18
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Infernot posted:You're going to need more than a paragraph of the Gotha Programme to justify having more than just birthmarks of capitalism in "socialist economies". Just a bit prior to the quote from the critique that everyone cites he specifically talks about the total social product. The workers aren't estranged from their labor in a "socialist economy" like in capitalism, they produce for a total social product that individuals can take what they are allotted. Which, they are allotted based on their working time and not by paying with money wages they receive. You can argue that these certificates are a wage but for Marx wage is a specific thing, and wage labor is one of the core aspects of capitalism. That wouldn't be just a birthmark of capitalism, that'd require the same social relations (estrangement, private property, wage labor, commodity production) of capitalism and calling it socialism. labor vouchers own bones
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Jul 12, 2018 20:26
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https://twitter.com/RedMaistre/status/1014650484353794056 https://twitter.com/RedMaistre/status/1014650499696615424 https://twitter.com/RedMaistre/status/1014650512740880385 It's an interesting take, I think.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:39
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https://twitter.com/l1quidcryst4l/status/1017467852503347201
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Jul 12, 2018 20:41
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here i was thinking it was just some dumb slogan with little relevance, it's actually extremely evil!
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Jul 12, 2018 20:43
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Metal Cat posted:https://twitter.com/RedMaistre/status/1014650484353794056 That's basically why marx said we'd probably have "to each according to their contribution" without wages. labor vouchers is one way to implement that.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:46
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Karl Barks posted:here i was thinking it was just some dumb slogan with little relevance, it's actually extremely evil!
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Jul 12, 2018 20:47
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When you're saying labour vouchers are you talking about one use tokens? Because if they're circulating then that's going to functionally work as money capital, interwoven with whatever system exists.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:50
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Karl Barks posted:here i was thinking it was just some dumb slogan with little relevance, it's actually extremely evil! tbf i always thought of it as an aspiration, not a concrete demand. something to be working towards, and part of that work would always include the liberation of the global south
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Jul 12, 2018 20:54
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lol what a goddamn nerd
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Jul 12, 2018 21:13
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https://mobile.twitter.com/l1quidcryst4l/status/1017467159189032961 what a loving dweeb. also it’s funny this is a white lady lashing out at a PoC for this
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Jul 12, 2018 21:14
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Jul 12, 2018 21:16
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communism is gunna suck poo poo and everyone should know that!
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Jul 12, 2018 21:16
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these people havent ever been to the third world
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Jul 12, 2018 21:18
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namesake posted:When you're saying labour vouchers are you talking about one use tokens? Because if they're circulating then that's going to functionally work as money capital, interwoven with whatever system exists. No, not quite. They won't circulate because the place you redeem them can't spend that amount. The people working at that place would only get an amount based on the labor they themselves put in there. Those two amounts could be vastly different.
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Jul 12, 2018 21:23
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[Tonight, the role of Homework Explainer will be played by Algund Eenboom] she's right
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Jul 12, 2018 21:23
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fully automated luxury communism? psh the noble savages of the global south would just like some more mud on their huts so they can stay dry after a hard day at the imperialism mines, they definitely dont want or need any automation or luxury
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Jul 12, 2018 21:24
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I like the idea of immediately dumping an outspoken leftist PoC humiliating piers Morgan in the “bad person” bin because she has the wrong twitter bio
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Jul 12, 2018 21:24
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Algund Eenboom posted:[Tonight, the role of Homework Explainer will be played by Algund Eenboom] she's right and that's what matters!
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Jul 12, 2018 21:25
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:fully automated luxury communism? psh the noble savages of the global south would just like some more mud on their huts so they can stay dry after a hard day at the imperialism mines, they definitely dont want or need any automation or luxury it seems that the assertion here is that the global south must be exploited, and that can never change. so we'll just have commie america imperializing abroad to support our luxury lifestyle
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Jul 12, 2018 21:26
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And furthermore it should not make you "cum"!
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Jul 12, 2018 21:31
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Ruzihm posted:No, not quite. They won't circulate because the place you redeem them can't spend that amount. The people working at that place would only get an amount based on the labor they themselves put in there. Those two amounts could be vastly different. Yeah so that's one use/destructable. Every token has exactly the same course: creation through labour -> held by labourer-> destruction through expenditure. There's the potential for a grey market where vouchers are traded between workers without destruction but the liklihood of that operating the same way as capital is minor while also still facilitating personal trade for all the edge cases where it works better than whatever the planned provision is. This does imply quite a heavy central control as any even slightly large production or sales organisation needs to be regulated to ensure the vouchers are destroyed (so there's a unitary banking structure that everyone has to use for digital transactions or a physical audit to check that the physical vouchers are destroyed properly) but that's not the end of the world.
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Jul 12, 2018 21:34
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Raskolnikov38 posted:knowing absolutely no details about this i'm going to guess this was stalin flipping the bird to the UK EX-KGB Special Tasks director Sudoplatov talks a lot about it in his memoir, some of it was to gain support among the Jewish expat community in the US before and immediately following the war.
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Jul 12, 2018 21:35
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Maybe she should ask some people living in the global south what they think of the silly meme that is supposedly a trojan horse priming first world leftists to abandon everyone else or something. Though I'm probably on the labor aristocracy too because of the southern cone.
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Jul 12, 2018 21:37
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Infernot posted:You're going to need more than a paragraph of the Gotha Programme to justify having more than just birthmarks of capitalism in "socialist economies". Just a bit prior to the quote from the critique that everyone cites he specifically talks about the total social product. The workers aren't estranged from their labor in a "socialist economy" like in capitalism, they produce for a total social product that individuals can take what they are allotted. Which, they are allotted based on their working time and not by paying with money wages they receive. You can argue that these certificates are a wage but for Marx wage is a specific thing, and wage labor is one of the core aspects of capitalism. That wouldn't be just a birthmark of capitalism, that'd require the same social relations (estrangement, private property, wage labor, commodity production) of capitalism and calling it socialism. not to get all stages of history here, but the socialist economy you're positing is a step beyond "Day 1: we got rid of the bosses" which is more what I'm talking about e: I'm not claiming that labor vouchers are a wage any more than capitalist profits are a wage. To return to Matt Bruenig,  if nobody gets paid wages, and instead of dividends you call it labor vouchers, what's the difference between this and what you're talking about? WhiskeyJuvenile fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 21:42
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namesake posted:Yeah so that's one use/destructable. Every token has exactly the same course: creation through labour -> held by labourer-> destruction through expenditure. There's the potential for a grey market where vouchers are traded between workers without destruction but the liklihood of that operating the same way as capital is minor while also still facilitating personal trade for all the edge cases where it works better than whatever the planned provision is. one word: blockchain
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Jul 12, 2018 21:42
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Taintrunner posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/l1quidcryst4l/status/1017467159189032961 also every time I've heard Ash Sarkar or other Novara media and adjacent people talk about FALC they've emphasised the need for reparations and the necessity for the dividends of automation to be shared globally but I guess going further than a twitter bio is hard work
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Jul 12, 2018 21:42
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HorrificExistence posted:EX-KGB Special Tasks director Sudoplatov talks a lot about it in his memoir, some of it was to gain support among the Jewish expat community in the US before and immediately following the war. even in 1960, this ad was considered too leftist, in part due to the israeli flag. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DoUiNxh6_0&t=63s
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Jul 12, 2018 21:44
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HorrificExistence posted:even in 1960, this ad was considered too leftist, in part due to the israeli flag. lol I really want to see the Nixon's version of the two minute animated ad
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Jul 12, 2018 21:46
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lol I really want to see the Nixon's version of the two minute animated ad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceocNS-toDk
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Jul 12, 2018 21:48
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:one word: blockchain another (better) word: no
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Jul 12, 2018 21:50
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HorrificExistence posted:even in 1960, this ad was considered too leftist, in part due to the israeli flag.
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Jul 12, 2018 21:51
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:not to get all stages of history here, but the socialist economy you're positing is a step beyond "Day 1: we got rid of the bosses" which is more what I'm talking about From the article my understanding is they're supposing that money will exist in this market socialist world, which for labour certificates they're not just a replacement for money as others have explained. Here's a preliminary bit on commodities (since people have been saying commodity production can exist in socialism) and then the latter quote is the bit in Capital about money. quote:As a general rule, articles of utility become commodities, only because they are products of the labour of private individuals or groups of individuals who carry on their work independently of each other. The sum total of the labour of all these private individuals forms the aggregate labour of society. Since the producers do not come into social contact with each other until they exchange their products, the specific social character of each producer’s labour does not show itself except in the act of exchange. In other words, the labour of the individual asserts itself as a part of the labour of society, only by means of the relations which the act of exchange establishes directly between the products, and indirectly, through them, between the producers. quote:The function of money as the means of payment implies a contradiction without a terminus medius. In so far as the payments balance one another, money functions only ideally as money of account, as a measure of value. In so far as actual payments have to be made, money does not serve as a circulating medium, as a mere transient agent in the interchange of products, but as the individual incarnation of social labour, as the independent form of existence of exchange-value, as the universal commodity. This contradiction comes to a head in those phases of industrial and commercial crises which are known as monetary crises. Such a crisis occurs only where the ever-lengthening chain of payments, and an artificial system of settling them, has been fully developed. Whenever there is a general and extensive disturbance of this mechanism, no matter what its cause, money becomes suddenly and immediately transformed, from its merely ideal shape of money of account, into hard cash. Profane commodities can no longer replace it. The use-value of commodities becomes valueless, and their value vanishes in the presence of its own independent form. On the eve of the crisis, the bourgeois, with the self-sufficiency that springs from intoxicating prosperity, declares money to be a vain imagination. Commodities alone are money. But now the cry is everywhere: money alone is a commodity! As the hart pants after fresh water, so pants his soul after money, the only wealth. In a crisis, the antithesis between commodities and their value-form, money, becomes heightened into an absolute contradiction. Hence, in such events, the form under which money appears is of no importance. The money famine continues, whether payments have to be made in gold or in credit money such as bank-notes. Infernot fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 23:14
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the fully automated luxury communism poo poo is utopian and stupid but who cares about this person
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Jul 13, 2018 04:49
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Lest we accuse communist of being utopian
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Jul 13, 2018 04:54
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Lest we accuse communist of being utopian communists shouldnt be utopian though, were specifically and exclusively materialists
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Jul 13, 2018 05:07
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apropos to nothing posted:communists shouldnt be utopian though, were specifically and exclusively materialists This
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Jul 13, 2018 05:07
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Maybe I'm using that word differently...
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Jul 13, 2018 05:08
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Like I'm thinking Soviet space propaganda here
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Jul 13, 2018 05:10
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"Utopian" is an extremely loaded word. There's nothing inherently utopian about fully automated luxury communism because it's a real achievable material state - what's utopian is thinking that it's going to happen in our lifetimes or even a thousand years from now. The ideological goals shouldn't be the immediate political goal.
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Jul 13, 2018 05:30
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