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This does point to a an incredibly frustrating aspect of dealing with Zak. His behavior is such that any mention of him can prompt a new wave of attacks, but not talking about his behavior exposes more potential victims to him. So silence isn't a realistic choice but raising the issue creates a lot of risk.
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Jul 11, 2018 21:33
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Disproportionate Orphan posted:I knew about the others, but these two I wasn't aware of. Sorry if I'm being a dummy, but what happened with these? The pre- alpha material was made public June 15th, 2017. It included stats for, among other things, gay nightclub patrons and the benefits you recieved for killing them and drinking their blood. On June 12, 2016 a gunman entered the Pulse gay nightclub and killed 49 people and wounded 53 others. Like, sure - ok. It's probably an unfortunate coincidence. Along with all the other "whoops we didn't know!" bullshit they spit every time they're called out.
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Jul 11, 2018 21:41
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moths posted:The pre- alpha material was made public June 15th, 2017. It included stats for, among other things, gay nightclub patrons and the benefits you recieved for killing them and drinking their blood. At this point it's either:
And either one of those should disqualify you from making a game which 'exposes the darkness of modern society'.
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Jul 11, 2018 21:47
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Flavivirus posted:
I don't think they're ignorant about pop culture; I think they're just incredibly out-of-touch with modern notions of how to respectfully and thoughtfully handle problematic material. And they have no idea that they are. It would never occur to them to stop and wonder if they're doing this the right way, because of course they are. They're basically Phil Brucato, but with Euro-metal instead of hippies.
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Jul 11, 2018 21:56
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Has anyone made a flowchart yet of who is harassing whom for what bullshit reason in all of this? At this point I'm completely confused as to who is attacking one another and why.
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Jul 11, 2018 22:15
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I think part of the issue is that revealing the names of victims can expose them to more harassment, which complicates the whole thing.
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Jul 11, 2018 22:17
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Desiden posted:Has anyone made a flowchart yet of who is harassing whom for what bullshit reason in all of this? At this point I'm completely confused as to who is attacking one another and why. Yeah, I feel at this point we need a Soap-like explanation of what is going on and who the players are. EDIT: poo poo, Rand makes a good point.
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Jul 11, 2018 22:18
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For visual aids, a timeline of their astounding sins against decency would be more appropriate than a flowchart.
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Jul 11, 2018 22:37
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moths posted:For visual aids, a timeline of their astounding sins against decency would be more appropriate than a flowchart. How's Green Ronin doing these days? Did their timeline ever materialise? I assume not.
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Jul 11, 2018 23:06
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Flavivirus posted:How's Green Ronin doing these days? Did their timeline ever materialise? I assume not. Instead of a timeline Nicole Lindroos posted this on Green Ronin's site a while back. People tore into the harassment policy here when it first went up. One of the big points was it seems specifically worded in such a way that if it were applied to the C.A. Suleiman incident, they'd be free of any wrongdoing. It also looks like wundergeek is calling out the dog with the dice for what happened after he name-dropped her in his reposted update: https://twitter.com/wundergeek/status/1017016292992143360 https://twitter.com/wundergeek/status/1017016294103584768 https://twitter.com/wundergeek/status/1017212693688664066
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Jul 12, 2018 05:32
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Nuns with Guns posted:It also looks like wundergeek is calling out the dog with the dice for what happened after he name-dropped her in his reposted update:  When I saw the message it just said "a feminist". I guess they edited that out?
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Jul 12, 2018 07:16
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Ettin posted:
It's been edited a couple of times, yeah. The version currently up on the site names names.
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Jul 12, 2018 08:20
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I know some people suggested it was edited off in an earlier post, but looking at the ENnies' Fan Favorite Publisher again, it looks like MYFAROG of all things is an option.
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Jul 12, 2018 08:38
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NGDBSS posted:In the case of the latter, that's how Swedish Dracula signed a public message related to VtM stuff back in maybe 2016. Someone around here should have a screenshot? He also used it verbally in the 2016 keynote speech at the Grand Masquerade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ezN0vwKhA&t=3624s
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Jul 12, 2018 09:15
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Libertad! posted:I know some people suggested it was edited off in an earlier post, but looking at the ENnies' Fan Favorite Publisher again, it looks like MYFAROG of all things is an option. I'm curious what's going on, because trying to go to Fan Favorites Voting from the actual Ennies page gives me a "sorry this page doesn't exist" message. Can anyone else replicate that, or am I uniquely afflicted with bad links? I think (hope) it was sort of shunted off, and you're not expected to be able to reach that page but they are bad at what they're doing.
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Jul 12, 2018 10:50
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Anyone can nominate a Fan Favourite Publisher, so I assume someone put MYFAROG in and either it's entirely automated or whoever vets it didn't know who Varg Vikernes is, which TBF is pretty reasonable. It might be worth figuring out who to ping about that.
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Jul 12, 2018 11:07
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I love that someone that agrees with the dogdice guy decided to call him out because they "never heard of him." Thank God someone was there to stop him.
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Jul 12, 2018 14:04
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ravenkult posted:I love that someone that agrees with the dogdice guy decided to call him out because they "never heard of him." Thank God someone was there to stop him. That wasn't why, and it wasn't at all presented as a cause, let alone the cause; it was an offhanded description of him near the start of the response. The rest of it goes pretty well into detail that the "why" was because his response to being presented the fact that his article stirred up more harassment to victims was to pull down everything and point at her "vitriol" as part of the reason. It's basically exactly what Nuns with Guns posted earlier; he did no outreach to harassment targets before putting it up, and he didn't consider the potential for knock-on effects and renewed harassment that did end up happening to them as a result of the article.
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Jul 12, 2018 14:14
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And the lack of sophistication/research behind some of the points was raised here as well. AND this wasn't some person posting a twitter thread going "hey what the gently caress" where some of that is more understandable. Dogs presented themselves as doing some kind of expose and they should have met a higher standard in preparing that, for these exact reasons. That being said when you're getting buried under harassment and death threats its almost impossible to parse out specific people who are criticizing in good faith and have a legitimate bone to pick. It looks a lot like the bad faith bullshit and feels like part of the same wave of attacks.
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Jul 12, 2018 14:23
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It seems to me there are several core issues colliding. Gonna soapbox, so feel free to TL;DR. For some reason, White Wolf wants the One World of Darkness to be "topical". For some reason they think the original World of Darkness was topical, but I don't think it ever really was. Sure, you had the ham-handed environmentalism of Werewolf: the Apocalypse or the general anti-modernist tone of a lot of their games, but they didn't really confront issues of the day in any nuanced sense. Maybe AIDS got a namedrop as a risk for bloodsuckers, but there wasn't really an adventure where you have to deal with the plight of HIV-positive individuals. The old White Wolf games were often trendy, often intersecting with popular subcultures or phenomenons, like throwing cyberpunk hackers and goth poets in their wizard game. And I think White Wolf is making a deep mistake in thinking what was mainly being trendy was some form of topicality. The follow-on issue is that they don't really seem to have much to say about those topics. I mean, say what you will about Apocalypse's facile anti-corporatism, it made no bones about it. And because they don't have a particular message or stance, you end up with a mealy-mouthed "well it's all about choice!" which results in a false equivalence between say, being alt-right and being sane. Pedophila or alt-right representation just becomes another choice in the quiver because those are "topical" and edgy, but there's no purpose to their inclusion save to try and court controversy like the original White Wolf. The problem is, it's been a long time since the publication of stuff like Pimp: the Backhanding, and even that was past its time at the point of release. Being digressive for its own sake is, frankly, not really necessary anymore. Knocking down a lot of the barriers of expression in media with extreme material was definitely a thing of the 1990s and early 2000s, and was probably even valuable in some ways, and definitely harmful in others. But we have the internet now, and you can find outlets for any sort of extreme artistic, political, or philosophical brand that you like. You can't out-edge the internet. It doesn't serve a purpose in and of itself. You have to have something meaningful to say. Vampire: the Masquerade is particularly problematic to try and make topical, because it was probably the least topical of White Wolf's core games, even more than something like Changeling. Vampires were generally divorced from most of the issues of the day, occasionally interfacing with them to their own benefit but remaining essentially separate from human culture. And so inserting that sort of thing at this point, like White Wolf wants to do, comes across as forced and deliberate. And that's why the alt-right stuff seems inserted to court them. I don't think it's the case, I think it's wanting to chase controversy and topicality in a very tactless, pointless way. Maybe they're aware how troubling recent political shifts in America have been, maybe not. They probably should be, given Sweden's own issues with Nazism, but it's possible they don't realize this is the hottest of hot button issues at the moment for any moderate or literal American that's even slightly politically aware. There's literal murder and oppression going on as a result of it. So I don't think they're likely Nazis. It's not impossible that some of the writers have those sympathies, I don't honestly know for certain but I'm not sure there's a smoking gun to convince me. Ultimately, I think they're being dumb, and I think it's dumb in a way that doesn't work to the strengths of the games they're trying to revive. That's not to day you couldn't do political plots or modern issues in a revival of Vampire: the Masquerade, but you'd have to have something to say, some angle that makes it interesting and relevant to the themes of the game. Instead, they want to straddle this grey, meaningless line of neutrality. But neutrality when it comes to issues like alt-right doesn't work. It ultimately ends up being a form of tacit endorsement, whether intended or otherwise, and tacit endorsement of people who have committed very real crimes. But I don't think labeling them as alt-right gets at the core issue. It got a lot of hits, but it misses the cause for the effect, and the two are very different things.
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Jul 12, 2018 16:59
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Something I found troubling is that the game world seems to take place entirely inside of a fringe alt-right fantasy. There is a dedicated network of (((globalists))), pedophilia is treated as an "alternative lifestyle," LBGTQ people only exist to be victims or monsters, the immigrants are terrorists, "triggered" is a punchline, etc. It's r/pol or r/the_donald with vampires. And kind of gently caress that. Everything they've shown has been 100% compliant with that worldview, and they're so up their own asses that they can't see how it's a problem.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:50
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The problem is, it's been a long time since the publication of stuff like Pimp: the Backhanding, and even that was past its time at the point of release. I... I never knew that was a thing. Jesus Christ, I wasn't expecting that to be real, much less actually connected to WW.
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Jul 12, 2018 23:43
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Qoey posted:I... I never knew that was a thing. Jesus Christ, I wasn't expecting that to be real, much less actually connected to WW. lol yeah, it was real dumb even back then.
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Jul 12, 2018 23:50
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Kai Tave posted:lol yeah, it was real dumb even back then. And they caught appropriate amounts of poo poo for it, as I recall. How much impact did the backlash have on the White Wolf corporate culture at the time? Was it a specific wake-up call?
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Jul 12, 2018 23:52
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I doubt it. Didn't they release gay porn art of Exalted NPCs sometime in that same period?
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Jul 13, 2018 00:00
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Bieeanshee posted:I doubt it. Didn't they release gay porn art of Exalted NPCs sometime in that same period? Melissa Uran has fun, let's put it that way.
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Jul 13, 2018 00:19
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Bieeanshee posted:I doubt it. Didn't they release gay porn art of Exalted NPCs sometime in that same period? I don't think gay porn is actually anywhere near as bad as that 'Pimp: The Backhanding' thing. That's not a defense of the Exalted porn parody supplement, it was dire, but I really don't think those are the same category of thing at all.
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Jul 13, 2018 00:45
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Joe Slowboat posted:I don't think gay porn is actually anywhere near as bad as that 'Pimp: The Backhanding' thing. That's not a defense of the Exalted porn parody supplement, it was dire, but I really don't think those are the same category of thing at all. Yeah, Scroll of Swallowed Darkness was kind of dumb imo, but someone looking at a game called Pimp: the Backhanding and going "yes this is cool and good and we should publish it" was way, way stupider. As I recall, even people writing for White Wolf at the time were like "uh yeah, this is actually pretty bad, I didn't have anything to do with this."
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Jul 13, 2018 00:50
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Literally the best you can say about nuWW is "they're only nazi sympathizers" and like Naw I'm loving good just shrugging and calling them nazis.
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Jul 13, 2018 02:17
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah, Scroll of Swallowed Darkness was kind of dumb imo, but someone looking at a game called Pimp: the Backhanding and going "yes this is cool and good and we should publish it" was way, way stupider. As I recall, even people writing for White Wolf at the time were like "uh yeah, this is actually pretty bad, I didn't have anything to do with this." Some of them definitely. I remember Justin Achilles doing some pretty embarrassing defenses of it on RPG.net though. The one he used that still sticks in my head after all these years was a picture of a 40k space marine in a pimp hat, which apparently proved that nerds were being hypocritical since they thought that incongruous image was funny, but weren't laughing at a game with an action card involving chucking hot frying oil at a sex worker. That was kinda in a nutshell what made Pimp: the Backhanding extra dumb. I wouldn't call the memes about pimps at the time progressive by any means, but like a lot of memes they were mostly about nothing. Then WW showed up and clearly did not get the joke, and ended up aping the form with a terribly literal attempt at "humor".
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Jul 13, 2018 11:40
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Desiden posted:Some of them definitely. I remember Justin Achilles doing some pretty embarrassing defenses of it on RPG.net though. The one he used that still sticks in my head after all these years was a picture of a 40k space marine in a pimp hat, which apparently proved that nerds were being hypocritical since they thought that incongruous image was funny, but weren't laughing at a game with an action card involving chucking hot frying oil at a sex worker.
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Jul 13, 2018 12:20
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Zereth posted:wait what You can read the rulebook here if you want to die of vicarious embarrassment poisoning. I can't find any pictures of the card Desiden is talking about but I can find others if you want like the one where you have one of your prostitutes star in a porn with a donkey.
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Jul 13, 2018 13:04
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Holy poo poo.
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Jul 13, 2018 13:06
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Boardgamegeek has scans of all the cards pretty much, https://boardgamegeek.com/image/2795869/pimp-backhanding?size=large if you really want. https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?203203-Card-Game-Pimp-the-Backhanding-reviewed-by-San-Dee-Jota-(4-3) is a hell of a read in retrospect.
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Jul 13, 2018 13:37
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BGG has an entry for Pimp: the Backhanding here, including lots of pictures of the cards. The Deep Fat Fry Daddy ("Three pounds of cold steel and a half gallon of hot grease"), seen here, gives you +2 to your Backhanding roll when you play it. And when do you make Backhanding rolls? Why, during the Backhanding Phase, of course! Pimp: the Backhanding rulebook posted:The Backhanding Phase
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Jul 13, 2018 13:39
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moths posted:Ok so far NüWW has given us: Someone tell me about 3 and 6 please If you explain echoes and globalist as dogwhistle I'll hit you
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Jul 13, 2018 14:23
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Someone tell me about 3 and 6 please Iirc there was a trans Nosferatu in the text adventure named after a real life transperson that [REDACTED] had a personal problem with.
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Jul 13, 2018 14:30
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Hell yeah I love this poo poo stupid hobby
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Jul 13, 2018 14:37
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The character also put people through a bunch of ideological purity tests before deciding whether they should live or die. As for the globalsim, post-Gehenna WoD filled the "sinister conspiracy" slot with a second inquisition. Where before the PCs were part of the biggest conspiracy (jyhad and masquerade), they are now opposed by an international cabal that secretly acts behind the scenes to exterminate the vampire race.
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Jul 13, 2018 14:40
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Kurieg posted:Iirc there was a trans Nosferatu in the text adventure named after a real life transperson that [REDACTED] had a personal problem with. She was Ventrue and would hire male Uber drivers to ask them questions about how OK they were with transwomen. If they were insufficiently accepting, she would eat them. If they were sufficiently accepting, she would have sex with them. The way the whole thing was written it was unclear at best whether she used Dominate to have sex with the sufficiently accepting taxi drivers, and whether her criteria for "sufficiently accepting" was "would have sex with me".
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Jul 13, 2018 14:47
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