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Cicero posted:Automation will definitely automate all the jobs away eventually, but it doesn't seem to be happening just yet. Unemployment is real low and all that. unemployment is low, but that's not telling the story you think it's telling.  and, to remind you we're talking about kicking the bottom rung out of the employment ladder. food service is typically where people go when they can't find any other work (legal, non-sleazy work at least). it doesn't naturally follow that the people working those jobs will just find something else. or that that something else will be any better for them. if I had to guess, the people who lost food service jobs would probably jump to jobs like uber or task rabbit, or amazon mechanical turk or whatever out of desperation. and it wouldn't turn out well edit: i'd like to once again point to the rust belt as evidence that people don't always just find new jobs once their jobs are eliminated: https://gobigread.wisc.edu/2017/05/men-disappear-from-rust-belt-unemployment-addiction-rise/ quote:As the article explains, the exodus of manufacturing jobs starting in the 1950s and 60s in industrialized regions of the Northeast, Midwest, and Appalachia sowed the seeds for a major crisis among Rust Belt males. As stable, respectable jobs departed, many faced chronic unemployment and/or completely departed from the workforce, discouraged from continued rejection. This is especially true in areas of Ohio, like Middletown, where Go Big Read author J.D. Vance grew up. In regions in southern Ohio, 42% of men are either jobless or out of the labor market, compared to the national average rate of roughly 20% (theatlantic.com). Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jul 13, 2018 |
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Jul 13, 2018 18:58
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The accelerationist part of me cheers on the further destruction of low-level labor due to automation as it will strengthen the arguments of a stronger social safety net, if not strengthen the movement itself since such former workers paradoxically tend to be against such things. And even if it doesn't, it's not like there haven't been big losers who were unceremoniously swept away into the dustbin of history due to economic revolutions before. I'm personally quite grateful to not have to deal with horse carriage drivers or human switchboard operators in my daily life, even though removing the need for those jobs almost definitely destroyed lives.
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Jul 13, 2018 19:14
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Condiv posted:This might be true in a perfect world, but our world is far from perfect. I'm not saying it's a utopia or even that it will lead to a utopia. There will still be poo poo entry level jobs that aren't very interesting and stimulating, but at the least they will teach you skills that are useful in other jobs. For instance, 30-40 years ago door to door salesmen were quite common, nowadays most of those jobs have turned into call center jobs. Certainly sales teaches you a good bit but now that they're computer based you're gaining useful computing skills at the same time, this translates readily to many other jobs that require basic computer skills. It may not seem like an important or meaningful change, but it's given many people the opportunity to learn and/or a path towards skilled work. Menial work does not give you skills that can be applied to more complex types of work.
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Jul 13, 2018 19:22
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My job was automated but the robots sucked at it, so then it was outsourced, but the Indians sucked at it, so now it is my job and I suck at it slightly less than a foreigner or a robot. All hail "meaningful work", whatever the gently caress that is.
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Jul 13, 2018 20:06
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ElCondemn posted:Menial work does not give you skills that can be applied to more complex types of work. Well that's straight up bullshit.
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Jul 13, 2018 20:06
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Rent-A-Cop posted:My job was automated but the robots sucked at it, so then it was outsourced, but the Indians sucked at it, so now it is my job and I suck at it slightly less than a foreigner or a robot. Not sure what "meaningful work" is either... fishmech posted:Well that's straight up bullshit. Do you just want to poo poo post or are you actually going to contribute something?
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Jul 13, 2018 21:16
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ElCondemn posted:For instance, 30-40 years ago door to door salesmen were quite common, nowadays most of those jobs have turned into call center jobs. Certainly sales teaches you a good bit but now that they're computer based you're gaining useful computing skills at the same time, this translates readily to many other jobs that require basic computer skills. Looking at a script on a computer screen and doing basic data entry aren't really the "useful computing skills" that move you forward in your career path. Unless you're assuming that the people were totally computer illiterate before taking the job, which is a vanishingly small part of the workforce these days.
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Jul 13, 2018 21:20
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WampaLord posted:Looking at a script on a computer screen and doing basic data entry aren't really the "useful computing skills" that move you forward in your career path. Yes, data entry and interacting with software isn't something a large portion of our population does. A lot of the people I grew up with and my family don't have access to a personal computer (though that's changing with smart phones) so even if they took a typing class in middle/high school they aren't comfortable with computing in general. Being able to do data entry and interacting with software are tasks that most users don't do daily anyway, even if they have a smartphone or computer. These are skills that will allow people to take jobs they might not have considered before.
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Jul 13, 2018 21:40
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ElCondemn posted:Yes, data entry and interacting with software isn't something a large portion of our population does. A lot of the people I grew up with and my family don't have access to a personal computer (though that's changing with smart phones) so even if they took a typing class in middle/high school they aren't comfortable with computing in general. You're not going to get those jobs without a very fast typing speed (not corrected either, raw, and usually more than a few errors will disqualify you) or computer experience. Best bet would be a telemarketing job; and there the big skill you learn is working a phone system. That certainly is useful, but what other job are you going to directly translate that skill to other than more call center work?
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Jul 13, 2018 21:47
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Raldikuk posted:You're not going to get those jobs without a very fast typing speed (not corrected either, raw, and usually more than a few errors will disqualify you) or computer experience. Call center jobs are incredibly varied, there are plenty of these jobs that don't have typing speed tests, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that these kinds of tests are common. But either way telemarketing jobs aren't the only no schooling required entry level jobs that could teach you useful skills. Assistants (from trades to office jobs), cable TV/internet installers, receptionists, delivery driver, a whole slew of call center jobs that aren't related to telemarketing are all jobs that will give you skills and put you on a path to a career. The types of jobs I would like to see reduced are ones that don't teach you anything and require little or no skills, jobs like burger flipper or door opener.
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Jul 13, 2018 22:21
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ElCondemn posted:Call center jobs are incredibly varied, there are plenty of these jobs that don't have typing speed tests, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that these kinds of tests are common. I was talking about data entry... the job u specifically called out. And every single other position you listed is more difficult to get than just showing up with zero skills and getting the job.
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Jul 13, 2018 23:11
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Not really seeing how a call center job teaches you anything intrinsically more valuable than how to cook a hamburger, or how it's necessarily better at setting you on a path towards a "meaningful" career, whatever that is. And in any case, call center jobs and other low-skill white collar work are at a much more imminent risk of being fully automated than food service, since tasks involving limited abstract reasoning and information/language manipulation are far easier for AI than anything involving motor skills and manipulating objects in physical space. In any case, the kinds of work that we would "like" to see reduced and the kinds of work that are most easily reduced by automation/technology are rarely the same. Indeed "skilled" labor--especially skilled white collar labor--is and always has suffered the most from "automation*" since it tends to benefit most from technologically driven productivity gains. Work that we consider "unskilled" usually involves routine sensory and motor tasks on physical objects in the real world, but this is the work that is least sensitive to being automated away since: 1. It is intrinsically the most difficult and computationally complex work in an absolute sense. Our brains handle basic motor and sensory tasks efficiently and automatically because if they didn't we'd be extinct, but that doesn't mean those tasks are easy to implement in a machine. We will have surely automated or abstracted away most of the work involved in contemporary software development long before we can make a machine with the sensory or motor capabilities of even a hamster. 2. A lot of "menial" work needs to be done locally or semi locally, so you cant have have a fewer and fewer people increasingly satisfying the global demand. As a result, technology driven productivity increases in general can't multiply to the same scales as they can in white collar / knowledge sector work. *"automation" isn't really the right thing to look at. It doesn't matter if you can fully automate a task if you can reduce the number of people needed to do it from 100 to 1.
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Jul 13, 2018 23:14
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Raldikuk posted:I was talking about data entry... the job u specifically called out. Every single position I listed I either worked or someone I know did with no education or prior work experience.
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Jul 13, 2018 23:15
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ElCondemn posted:I think it’s a false dichotomy, we act like automation is destroying jobs but I really believe it creates jobs. My take is that it can go either way, depending on the details of the automation as well as larger economic conditions. Previous major advances in automation tended to come during times of major economic expansion, where the efficiency gains of automation simply helped companies grow their operations to meet large amounts of unsatisfied demand. For example, the number of bank tellers grew after the invention of ATMs, because there was a lot of demand for banking and ATMs made it more affordable for banks to increase the number of physical bank branches. That led to a net increase in low-level banking jobs despite the fact that each individual branch had fewer employees. On the other hand, the economy right now isn't too hot, demand is kind of slack, and the internet eliminates the importance of location in a way which is now rolling the brick-and-mortar expansion of previous decades - and taking a ton of now-redundant jobs with it. That's hitting banking, too - the rise of online banking is helping banks to close physical branches, and bank teller employment has been plummeting for years. Even though ATMs and online banking were both "banking automation", they've had totally opposite effects on the industry. There's no sweeping "automation always does X" principle that applies here - each individual advance has a different impact based on both its own particular nature and the larger economic context in which it's introduced. But under our current economic situation, the automation technologies that are coming into the marketplace right now (mostly internet-related stuff, not the AI boondoggles that exist only to hype up investors) are the kind that are largely bad for workers and for jobs. EDIT: Okay, I lied - there is one all-encompassing principle of automation. In the end, it will eliminate work as we know it. Not just "drudge work", but all work. It may be a very long-term process, but sooner or later, so much will be automated that the economy as we know it will no longer exist. And we're going to need to be ready for that before it actually happens. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jul 13, 2018 |
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Jul 13, 2018 23:25
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Morbus posted:Not really seeing how a call center job teaches you anything intrinsically more valuable than how to cook a hamburger, or how it's necessarily better at setting you on a path towards a "meaningful" career, whatever that is. And in any case, call center jobs and other low-skill white collar work are at a much more imminent risk of being fully automated than food service, since tasks involving limited abstract reasoning and information/language manipulation are far easier for AI than anything involving motor skills and manipulating objects in physical space. I never said anything about "meaningful career", if you guys have a problem with the term take it up with whoever said that. I'm talking practical application of job skills. A call center job is going to open doors for you more than a fast food job ever will. I did mention call center jobs but there are plenty of other entry level jobs that make sense and will improve your skills and require no prior training, experience or education. But anyway I really don't see your point, the kinds of work that we would "like" to see reduced do tend to be the same ones that are easily reduced by automation. We've seen through improvements in manufacturing, tools and machinery a huge increase in production in most manual labor jobs (farming, assembly line work, etc.). It's only recently that we've started to see the automation of administrative/white-collar type work, things that used to be hard for computers to do are becoming easier through technologies like machine learning and computer vision.
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Jul 13, 2018 23:27
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ElCondemn posted:A call center job is going to open doors for you more than a fast food job ever will. Have you ever worked in a call center?
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Jul 13, 2018 23:43
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ElCondemn posted:
Dude you're shitposting by declaring there's no useful skills in any low paid job.
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Jul 13, 2018 23:47
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ElCondemn posted:Every single position I listed I either worked or someone I know did with no education or prior work experience. Since you're a goon I am going to guess you have had years or even decades of computer experience. That translates to skills to have. Are you claiming you and those others didn't possess skills as well? Beyond that your experience doesn't translate to the entire US economy nor the depth of what sort of call center jobs would be available that require higher skills.
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Jul 14, 2018 00:02
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It's really funny to hear people talk up call centers on the literal release day of Sorry to Bother You.
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Jul 14, 2018 00:14
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WampaLord posted:Have you ever worked in a call center? Yes I worked in a few as a telemarketer and in support. Raldikuk posted:Since you're a goon I am going to guess you have had years or even decades of computer experience. That translates to skills to have. Are you claiming you and those others didn't possess skills as well? I didn't get a computer until I was 12, the only computers I had access to were at school, I'm 33. Most of my peers growing up and my family are very poor Mexican immigrants who mainly worked manual labor jobs like digging ditches. I said: quote:Assistants (from trades to office jobs), cable TV/internet installers, receptionists, delivery driver, a whole slew of call center jobs that aren't related to telemarketing are all jobs that will give you skills and put you on a path to a career. I brought up the door to door salesman jobs turning into call center jobs as an example, but there are plenty of other low skill jobs that give you skills. I'm not just talking about office jobs. Most of the people from my neighborhood went on to either join the military or work food service or manual labor jobs. Most of them continue to toil in low income jobs to this day. The ones that were able to work their way out of that life did it by taking jobs like the ones I described, none of them do what I do but they live good lives and I think it's because they lucked into jobs that taught them skills early (much like I did). Also just to clarify, I'm not glorifying call center jobs or wishing those jobs on people either, if those jobs could be automated away as well that would be great. The whole point I'm making is that automation might reduce the number of low skill jobs but I think as a society we are better for it. ElCondemn fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jul 14, 2018 |
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Jul 14, 2018 00:29
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Main Paineframe posted:EDIT: Okay, I lied - there is one all-encompassing principle of automation. In the end, it will eliminate work as we know it. Not just "drudge work", but all work. It may be a very long-term process, but sooner or later, so much will be automated that the economy as we know it will no longer exist. And we're going to need to be ready for that before it actually happens. I mean, the people who actually can make the changes necessary to prepare have already done so: they're the ones who bought bugout bunkers in New Zealand.
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Jul 14, 2018 00:33
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luxury handset posted:you're being classist again by saying fast food jobs are "awful tasks" Kerning Chameleon posted:The accelerationist part of me cheers on the further destruction of low-level labor due to automation as it will strengthen the arguments of a stronger social safety net, if not strengthen the movement itself since such former workers paradoxically tend to be against such things. 
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Jul 14, 2018 09:22
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Focusing on one job type is basically a fallacy anyway. It's part of a downward spiral where people get caught in looking for work without realizing there aren't enough for everyone.
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Jul 14, 2018 22:06
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All this talk of automated food prep, and no mention of the pizza vending machine made in Italy? http://www.letspizza.it/index-en.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZzRL_9_zJA
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Jul 14, 2018 22:18
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Forget the assembly line burger builder, make way for the automated "meat brewery", real fake burgers available in restaurants soon! https://www.mosameat.com/blog/2018/7/16/welcome-to-our-new-investors
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Jul 18, 2018 20:19
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Cockmaster posted:All this talk of automated food prep, and no mention of the pizza vending machine made in Italy? Also curious if the pizza tastes any good of course.
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Jul 18, 2018 21:00
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Cicero posted:Looks pretty neat, although not slicing the pizza seems odd? I can understand not always doing it in a restaurant or for a take-out order since the customer can use a knife in the restaurant or at home to do it themselves, but if this machine is just in a mall or airport or wherever obviously that's not happening. "why don't you just cut it, this would make more sense if you cut this" is a valid point but it's an actual italian company and that is an italian thing. Selling inconveniently uncut pizza, not just on automated stuff. (looking it up I guess the philosophy is that big pizzas are a crazy foreign thing and asking someone to cut your normal sized food for you is something an infant would do, so it got mismatched where italian pizzas got bigger so they should be cut into many slices to make sense but culturally it's still like they are manageable things you'd just rip in half, so everyone in italy sells too big pizzas that you hack with a butter knife, which is exactly my experience with italy and pizza) Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 21:13
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Cicero posted:Looks pretty neat, although not slicing the pizza seems odd? I can understand not always doing it in a restaurant or for a take-out order since the customer can use a knife in the restaurant or at home to do it themselves, but if this machine is just in a mall or airport or wherever obviously that's not happening. Wouldn't most airports have plastic knives available in the restaurant area? Not to mention slicing it would mean a whole new system to worry about. Probably not that complicated compared to the rest of the machine, but a pretty significant expense for both building and maintaining it.
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Jul 18, 2018 23:26
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I feel like I've seen a pizza vending machine in one of the stores nearby, not sure if it was one exactly like this and making it from scratch, but if so, I'll definitely give it a try.
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Jul 19, 2018 14:48
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mobby_6kl posted:I feel like I've seen a pizza vending machine in one of the stores nearby, not sure if it was one exactly like this and making it from scratch, but if so, I'll definitely give it a try. There has been both frozen pizza vending machines and also those gas station pizza spinner things where a person cooked pizza earlier and put a pizza in where you pay to open the door automat style.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:46
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mobby_6kl posted:I feel like I've seen a pizza vending machine in one of the stores nearby, not sure if it was one exactly like this and making it from scratch, but if so, I'll definitely give it a try. There's an interesting thing about that, talk of this has been around so long that theres a Snopes article clearing up timelines: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pizza-vending-machine/ Essentially testing versions of such machines are known to have existed from 2009, but weren't deployed for true public use until ~2015 and are still pretty rare. You might well have been across one.
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Jul 19, 2018 22:40
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fishmech posted:There's an interesting thing about that, talk of this has been around so long that theres a Snopes article clearing up timelines: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pizza-vending-machine/ Huh, now there's a US company bringing out a similar machine. Neat: http://pizzametry.com/index.html Though regarding the quality of the pizza: These machines are built to produce pizzas far more quickly (2.5-3.5 minutes) than normal, so the recipe would have to be optimized for fast cooking. I can't imagine achieving that without compromising taste to at least some extent.
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Jul 20, 2018 03:58
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Cockmaster posted:Though regarding the quality of the pizza: These machines are built to produce pizzas far more quickly (2.5-3.5 minutes) than normal, so the recipe would have to be optimized for fast cooking. I can't imagine achieving that without compromising taste to at least some extent. I don't know how good this specific pizza is, but cooking pizza very very fast at extreme temperatures is already a thing for fancy expensive pizza. A lot of wood fired pizzas are cooked at like 800-900 degrees for 90 seconds and that is why pizza ovens are often built like giant kilns. I don't know if some random robot machine would be as fancy and it might just microwave it or something but at least conceptually pizza that is cooked very quickly can be more desirable and high quality than pizza cooked slowly. Good pizza ovens are some of the hottest ovens there are, up there with tandoori ovens.
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Jul 20, 2018 06:02
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The video for the Italian machine said it uses infrared cooking which is apparently super fast. No idea about the taste though.
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Jul 20, 2018 09:54
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Cicero posted:The video for the Italian machine said it uses infrared cooking which is apparently super fast. No idea about the taste though. Well, putting a conventional pizza oven in there would be kind of tricky - not only do you have an 800 degree oven right next to heat-sensitive electronics, but it would probably heat up the area around the machine. I wonder if a machine like this would be a good candidate for RF cooking (like microwave, but it can be precisely focused on different parts of the food): https://thespoon.tech/miele-introduces-the-dialog-a-high-end-oven-powered-by-rf-solid-state-cooking-technology/
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Jul 22, 2018 20:47
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I don't know how good this specific pizza is, but cooking pizza very very fast at extreme temperatures is already a thing for fancy expensive pizza. A lot of wood fired pizzas are cooked at like 800-900 degrees for 90 seconds and that is why pizza ovens are often built like giant kilns. I don't know if some random robot machine would be as fancy and it might just microwave it or something but at least conceptually pizza that is cooked very quickly can be more desirable and high quality than pizza cooked slowly. Good pizza ovens are some of the hottest ovens there are, up there with tandoori ovens. You’re complete forgetting all the other processes in traditional pizza making that aren’t fast, such as development of the dough.
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Jul 24, 2018 13:47
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Solkanar512 posted:You’re complete forgetting all the other processes in traditional pizza making that aren’t fast, such as development of the dough. I mean, that seems like a flaw in all made to order pizza everywhere. I doubt automated vending machines will butt in the 72 hour perfect pizza dough market.
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Jul 24, 2018 21:27
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Waymo is expanding their Phoenix pilot to include a new program to get metro employees to a bus or transit stop: https://medium.com/waymo/partnering-with-valley-metro-to-explore-public-transportation-solutions-ff01ae36484d quote:The first phase of this partnership, which we plan to launch in August, will offer first- and last-mile transit connections for Valley Metro employees, helping to connect them with public transportation. These riders will be able to use the Waymo app to hail a ride to take them to their nearest public transportation option.
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Aug 1, 2018 03:17
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totally gonna pay five bucks for a taxi to drive me to the bus stop instead of seven bucks to drive me to my destination
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Aug 1, 2018 06:09
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This is an interesting read about acceptance of robots in Japan compared to Westerners. https://www.wired.com/story/ideas-joi-ito-robot-overlords/?mbid=social_twitter
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Aug 1, 2018 08:38
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