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Guy testing summon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poZyLOjteWM "I trusted you Elon I trusted you!"
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Jul 14, 2018 06:02
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One day, when AI works properly, the car will accelerate into that dickhead. I trust you, too, Elon.
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Jul 14, 2018 09:45
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https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/6274/ Someone's introduced a bill to extend the EV tax credit. Any chance the Republicans won't shoot it down, what with our two best-selling EVs being made in America? spandexcajun posted:So is Denver International Airport, and it's 20 something years old and holding up quite well. Plus it's not like you need a lot of insulation in a temperate climate such as California.
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Jul 14, 2018 13:42
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Finger Prince posted:I know pickup trucks are supposed to be all about The Most Everything In Class, including engine size/power/fuel consumption, but it seems to me there's an awful lot of unused space on them that could be filled with battery packs, like between the frame rails for one. I know the target demographic would never buy one because you'd might not be able to drive across Texas with a herd of cattle in the bed in one, and some of the potential payload would be eaten up by the battery weight so it couldn't claim to have the Best Payload In Class. I just want a PHEV Tacoma. I sure wouldn't want one because the infrastructure to refuel it quickly outside of major cities and interstates isn't going to be put in for decades, if then. There isn't any financial justification for the level of infrastructure required to build it in the boonies. Same reason 75% of the country only has a handful of Superchargers per state, and all of them are on major highways. Hybrids are a much better answer for most of the use cases for pickups.
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Jul 14, 2018 14:03
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An efficient diesel make the most sense for a pickup but most people drive them around empty and we sell them with the largest HP engines we can make so marketing.
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Jul 15, 2018 05:57
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Elephanthead posted:An efficient diesel make the most sense for a pickup but most people drive them around empty and we sell them with the largest HP engines we can make so marketing. Well, yeah. We'd see more of those if 'diesel' wasn't automotive company for 'tack another $15k on the price' in the truck market too.
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Jul 15, 2018 06:12
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I hope someone does a cost breakdown of the i-Pace. I'd love to know how much it's costing Magna to build them.
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Jul 15, 2018 07:09
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Someone at the mall left a hand written note from a pad of paper that said nissan leaf, basically telling my wife she shouldn't park there because the outlander doesn't have fast charging while the car was plugged in to the fast charger. 
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Jul 15, 2018 13:37
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Ooh I just can't wait for the EV charger rage to start really taking off. People will be assholes no matter where you go. The most San Francisco thing I've seen in a while was some time ago at a parking garage. There was a Leaf using the EV spot, and a guy in a Model S pulled up in the regular spot beside it, looked around for a minute, then unplugged the Leaf and ran the cable over to his own car instead.
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Jul 15, 2018 16:38
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Sagebrush posted:Ooh I just can't wait for the EV charger rage to start really taking off. People will be assholes no matter where you go.
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Jul 15, 2018 16:45
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Sagebrush posted:Ooh I just can't wait for the EV charger rage to start really taking off. People will be assholes no matter where you go. I thought you could only remove from the Leaf when charging was complete. Shifting from a charged car to another was pretty common where I used to work.
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Jul 15, 2018 17:10
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Sagebrush posted:Ooh I just can't wait for the EV charger rage to start really taking off. People will be assholes no matter where you go. I came back to my Volt at a Whole Foods once, and there was a guy unplugging my car to plug his (totally loving stone-cold-dead) P85D in. He could not comprehend why that was A: A little bit of a dick move, considering there was another open charger, and B: Why it wasn’t working (he didn’t have a ChargePoint card, so neither the open charger nor my charger would work after he disconnected me.) After negotiating through an interpreter (Miami) I ended up swiping my ChargePoint card to get him charging since Whole Foods chargers are free, and that loving S was DEAD. He must’ve pulled in reading zero, because it showed nearly 90kwh charged on my ChargePoint session. Dumb knows no bounds.
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Jul 15, 2018 17:17
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Subjunctive posted:I thought you could only remove from the Leaf when charging was complete. Shifting from a charged car to another was pretty common where I used to work. I dunno, maybe it was charged. I still like to use it as an example of San Francisco.txt: superficially everyone is a globally-conscious thoughtful liberal, but underneath it's actually just a bunch of rich assholes stealing from the poor like everywhere else In any case, electric vehicle owners kindly sharing the charger is, I guarantee, only a phenomenon that can exist when the group is small enough. We'll reach some critical mass of electric cars where people will stop seeing it as a brotherhood (I think it's already happened in San Francisco, where there are Teslas and Leafs and i3s literally everywhere) and it'll be exactly the same belligerent free-for-all you see in a mall parking lot on Saturday.
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Jul 15, 2018 17:42
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Subjunctive posted:I thought you could only remove from the Leaf when charging was complete. Shifting from a charged car to another was pretty common where I used to work. Does it work this way? Would definitely help from the standpoint of awful other EV owners, but seems like a safety hazard on its own, not being able to disconnect the vehicle in an emergency?
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Jul 15, 2018 20:18
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Performance model 3s have started to hit Showroom lots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUnRYjdilNg
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Jul 15, 2018 20:53
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How much is a reasonable price to get a used i3 with range extender? I think I want to sell the A3 etron and get an i3 as full electric with a possible extension would work out fine, but the drawback of the i3 was price and my wife thought it looked ugly. If its cheap enough (looks like ~20K us? for the first page on ebay) and if I get it for my car, then those drawbacks are negated. Is there a buyers guide/forums like all the other BMW types? Is this a better question for the BMW thread?
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Jul 15, 2018 22:18
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blindjoe posted:How much is a reasonable price to get a used i3 with range extender? If you are in SCE territory for electricity there is a $10k rebate towards them, paired with California instant rebate and federal a new one can be had for around $20k.
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Jul 15, 2018 23:13
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angryrobots posted:Does it work this way? Would definitely help from the standpoint of awful other EV owners, but seems like a safety hazard on its own, not being able to disconnect the vehicle in an emergency? Yeah, on at least a few kinds of car, including the Leaf. You can’t disconnect a Tesla charger without unlocking the car, even if it’s fully charged. You can always just power down the charger and cut cables if it’s an emergency. (I’m not sure what emergency response you have in mind.)
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Jul 15, 2018 23:42
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roomforthetuna posted:That's true, but equally if they'd taken the risks and not screwed it up then they'd be raking in the rewards now. That's the way of risks. We can definitely agree that current state robotics and automation are crap! I am intimately familiar with warehouse robotics and let me just say: lol
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Jul 16, 2018 03:08
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Sagebrush posted:In any case, electric vehicle owners kindly sharing the charger is, I guarantee, only a phenomenon that can exist when the group is small enough. But there's a 0% chance that would be useful because the plug locks in when i lock the car. Cute idea though. blindjoe posted:How much is a reasonable price to get a used i3 with range extender? My wife's was a 2014 i3REX with about 20k miles. We got it for just about 20k after tax and title, CPO.
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Jul 16, 2018 03:28
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:We can definitely agree that current state robotics and automation are crap! I am intimately familiar with warehouse robotics and let me just say: lol It seems like there's either some sort of industrial sabotage going on (the execs in question were hired away from another company), or there's some sort of Terminator time-travel storyline happening with people working behind the scenes to put off the rise of robots that aren't loving useless, like going back in time to kill Hitler's grandfather rather than killing Hitler.
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Jul 16, 2018 04:06
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https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-model-3-teardown-profitability/ Munro Engineering walks back a lot of what they said during initial Model 3 teardown.
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Jul 16, 2018 20:36
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The Sicilian posted:https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-model-3-teardown-profitability/ Good to see they can make money on them, if they can figure out how to build them consistently and fast enough... bawfuls fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Jul 16, 2018 |
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Jul 16, 2018 20:58
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I find the constant focus on how many model 3's Tesla can produce weird. Once they've worked through the reservations the focus will shift to how many they can sell. The new goal of 10k a week is 520,000 cars a year. That's in the same ballpark as the global production of the 3 series or A4 , which are in a similar price range. Will enough buyers in that market (US$50k give or take) switch? There don't seem to be any solid numbers on the state of their order backlog, presumably they're well through it or there would have been no point in opening up orders to those without reservations. Assuming they deliver to all reservation holders by the end of this year, what does 2019 look like? This supremely unbiased article confidently states the Germans will lose at least one third of their total sales to the Model 3 by the end of this year. I guess it's possible but I struggle to imagine that many buyers being swayed by the advantages of an EV. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/09/mercedes-bmw-audi-on-verge-of-dramatic-disruption-from-tesla-model-3/
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Jul 16, 2018 22:34
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sanchez posted:There don't seem to be any solid numbers on the state of their order backlog, presumably they're well through it or there would have been no point in opening up orders to those without reservations. I think they're running low on reservation holders willing to but the $50k+ ones. I'd imagine there is a ton of people holding out for the mythical $35k model, and I can't imagine they'll build a single one of those until they run out of the higher-end orders.
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Jul 16, 2018 22:39
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They'll lose thousands on every base model. Maybe even 10k. They're not coming any time soon.
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Jul 16, 2018 22:43
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The Sicilian posted:https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-model-3-teardown-profitability/ I'm pretty skeptical on those kind of "reports".
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Jul 16, 2018 22:45
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bawfuls posted:I thought the main thrust of the Munro report was that Tesla's quality control was lovely. I don't even remember claims about cost, aside from the general "they made a bunch of weird design decisions that don't really save on costs nor improve reliability." The new video linked there mostly focuses on the things they always said Tesla did well, i.e. the electronics, the batteries. Well, the caveat is that they think it could be made for $28,000 at a production rate of 10k/week. Tesla is barely making half of that, so their actual current production cost is going to be higher. They don't suggest how much higher. Their general commentary was that the skateboard was brilliant but the body on top of it was idiotic - poorly designed and poorly made. That Tesla might be able to make them cheaply as well is a separate issue.
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Jul 16, 2018 22:49
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RZA Encryption posted:I think they're running low on reservation holders willing to but the $50k+ ones. I'd imagine there is a ton of people holding out for the mythical $35k model, and I can't imagine they'll build a single one of those until they run out of the higher-end orders. Any production capacity they add right now can be put towards building the model Y when demand for the 3 fizzles. The $35k model and $7,500 tax credit will never coexist. This raving lunatic on twitter says shipping it right now would cause Tesla to lose money and die. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998400110156550144 He's clearly mentally unstable though.
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Jul 16, 2018 22:50
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Deteriorata posted:Well, the caveat is that they think it could be made for $28,000 at a production rate of 10k/week. Tesla is barely making half of that, so their actual current production cost is going to be higher. They don't suggest how much higher. That's also manufacturing and production costs only - there's other overhead that needs coverage from the business. Still, step 1 is price that poo poo for more than marginal cost and they've got that down - and there's always opportunity to take money out of the manufacturing and production process as well through volume and process improvement. I'm wondering if the 35k model doesn't just vanish in to the ether at some point. I'm not sure Tesla absolutely needs it to survive. The money is going to be in the Y.
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Jul 17, 2018 00:05
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I'm wondering if the 35k model doesn't just vanish in to the ether at some point. I'm not sure Tesla absolutely needs it to survive. The money is going to be in the Y. Yeah I don't really understand why they want a streetfighter to compete on the budget end with the Leaf and Volt when they can just eat those luxury sedan dollars all day
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Jul 17, 2018 00:12
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canyoneer posted:Yeah I don't really understand why they want a streetfighter to compete on the budget end with the Leaf and Volt when they can just eat those luxury sedan dollars all day
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Jul 17, 2018 00:21
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canyoneer posted:Yeah I don't really understand why they want a streetfighter to compete on the budget end with the Leaf and Volt when they can just eat those luxury sedan dollars all day Yeah, I expect that Tesla will never really get their mass production issues straightened out and will survive as a niche supplier of high-end specialty vehicles. Musk wants to reinvent the auto industry, but he's going to have to reinvent his own company first if he wants to compete in the cheap cars market.
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Jul 17, 2018 00:24
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:That's also manufacturing and production costs only - there's other overhead that needs coverage from the business. For the normal car makers selling normal cars, do the overhead, development, and manufacturing set-up costs amortize to small fractions of the total car cost? Is it really much of an accomplishment in cars to be able to design a car whose marginal cost is less than sales price? In other areas of tech, like for computer chip companies and software companies, if you were to focus only on the marginal cost to produce a computer chip or to 'produce' an additional software copy, you would get a pretty warped view of the finances of those companies. I suspect cars aren't as extreme in that sense as those other kinds of products, but still, they are pretty complicated kind of consumer product.
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Jul 17, 2018 01:17
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no, those numbers are quite large, but in order to pass the wicket of "I cover all my costs" you have to pass the wicket of "I cover my marginal production costs" first. for instance for most manufacturers customer service and support is a very large profit center for OEMs but for tesla it is all cost right now. the structure of 90+% warranty work makes it really hard to make money. plus their customer service and support is high dollar and capital intensive so that's yet another thing that will suck up big piles of money for the near future. tesla actually needs to be even more profitable on a per-unit retailed basis to sustain success, which is going to be hard and why I think pushing down to a 35k model (which takes a very, very small amount of cost out of the product) is going to get handwaved away. its probably the right financial call as long as they are still making sales on $50k model 3s.
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Jul 17, 2018 01:55
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Deteriorata posted:Yeah, I expect that Tesla will never really get their mass production issues straightened out and will survive as a niche supplier of high-end specialty vehicles. if elon had sublet to valmet / magna / nedcar for manufacturing tesla would be making a lot more money right now which is really amusing to me
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Jul 17, 2018 01:59
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:That's also manufacturing and production costs only - there's other overhead that needs coverage from the business. Still, step 1 is price that poo poo for more than marginal cost and they've got that down - and there's always opportunity to take money out of the manufacturing and production process as well through volume and process improvement. The model 3 page on their website has already dropped all mention of the $35k starting price. Perhaps they need to keep their revenue up to avoid having their credit rating slip again - they've racked up something like $10 billion in debt, and now they want to build another bigass factory in China. canyoneer posted:Yeah I don't really understand why they want a streetfighter to compete on the budget end with the Leaf and Volt when they can just eat those luxury sedan dollars all day In the long run, successfully getting into the affordable car market would net them way more money than they could get from just luxury vehicles. It just requires far higher production numbers to turn a steady profit, which means way more time and money to get going.
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Jul 17, 2018 02:11
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everyone in the affordable car market is trying like hell to get out of it because the margins blow
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Jul 17, 2018 02:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:everyone in the affordable car market is trying like hell to get out of it because the margins blow Except shithouses like Mitsubishi and Nissan, because they make their money on the 22% sub-prime financing.
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Jul 17, 2018 02:55
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:everyone in the affordable car market is trying like hell to get out of it because the margins blow Is it really as bad at the $35k price point as it is at, say, $15k?
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Jul 17, 2018 03:01
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