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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:plenty of other damning stuff but this is not convincing at all If I see a guy with a little model of a Panzer on his shelf, while that's technically something Nazis would do, my first thought isn't gonna be Nazi, because a ton of other people collect tank models, especially World War 2 ones, so while it's mildly suspicious in a way I'm never gonna think of it. If the Panzer is right next to an SS officer's cap, a framed picture of Goebbels with a lipstick mark on it, and an autographed book by David Irving, you better loving believe I'm not giving that Panzer the benefit of the doubt.
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Jul 13, 2018 21:15
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It's kinda odd that it would bring up the false equivalence argument, shut it down, but end up sounding like it's waffling because it gives the olive branch of "but we oppose anyone that uses hate speech" like... that's exactly what the lovely people want to hear because yeah now you're admitting that you think 'the radical left' can be 'just as bad.'
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Jul 13, 2018 21:17
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Daeren posted:If I see a guy with a little model of a Panzer on his shelf, while that's technically something Nazis would do, my first thought isn't gonna be Nazi, because a ton of other people collect tank models, especially World War 2 ones, so while it's mildly suspicious in a way I'm never gonna think of it. why would you care about the panzer in the second case? you already know they're a nazi! if a piece of evidence is only convincing when you're already convinced, it's worthless either way e: and the dog with dice article made the mistake of leading with this, and the absurd claim that old vampire didn't present its vampires as cooler and better than humans. presenting that stuff as core evidence makes it sound like you don't have the goods Jeb Bush 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jul 13, 2018 |
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Jul 13, 2018 21:28
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Portraying the vampires (and players) as the victims of an international global conspiracy isn't a top tier smoking gun, but it's a subtle shift towards the IRL alt-right worldview. Also Jesus Christ - "denounce Antifa right here for the world to see" is the exact kind of alt-right gotcha you'd expect from nazi sympathizers. It's like why people were mad about Trump's "both sides" whattaboutism. It shows more alignment with an alt-right bubble than the real world. They'll be more careful about showing how they really feel, but there's almost no chance they'll actually change.
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Jul 13, 2018 22:54
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i mean what's really hosed up is that they are trying to depict vampires as monstrous by drawing comparisons to the rising neo-nazi movement, but like vampires don't need that poo poo. they're plenty monstrous without bringing nazi poo poo into it
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Jul 13, 2018 23:19
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OTOH there IS a tradition of Nazi Vampires in pop culture
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Jul 13, 2018 23:36
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Classic WW even had the Tzimisce, although were also part of the sect that said 'here are monstrous individuals for you to roleplay and they are not good and you should emulate them.' It's weird NuWW ditched the Sabbat. Is their double chainsaw fighting over blood feats no longer edgy? Sad.
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Jul 13, 2018 23:42
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Sion posted:Oh my god I just worked out who Avery is meant to be holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiit gently caress this guy. andrew smash fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jul 14, 2018 |
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Jul 14, 2018 00:41
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gradenko_2000 posted:hahahahahaha of loving course he is Hite finished his work on V5 months ago, and White Wolf owns that work product. He can't "un-involve" himself at this point aside from refusing to work on future material in the line, which is what he should do.
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Jul 14, 2018 01:51
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Kestral posted:Hite finished his work on V5 months ago, and White Wolf owns that work product. He can't "un-involve" himself at this point aside from refusing to work on future material in the line, which is what he should do. Okay but, like, would he?
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Jul 14, 2018 02:58
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Sion posted:Oh my god I just worked out who Avery is meant to be holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiit gently caress this guy. It got even """better""" when Zak's defense of the character was that it wasn't based on Avery, it was based on his good friend Baily Jay. Which, I mean, maybe she's cool with it (I don't think she ever weighed in), but holy poo poo is that ever a "my X friends don't mind." Jeb Bush 2012 posted:plenty of other damning stuff but this is not convincing at all I also find the (((globalist))) charge a little weak, from what we've been shown which isn't actually all that much. However, they have framed the Sabbat and elders as loving off into the ~Mysterious East~ ginning up a Clash of Civilizations which, uh, sure sounded dog whistly as hell.
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Jul 14, 2018 03:14
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That Old Tree posted:It got even """better""" when Zak's defense of the character was that it wasn't based on Avery, it was based on his good friend Baily Jay. Which, I mean, maybe she's cool with it (I don't think she ever weighed in), but holy poo poo is that ever a "my X friends don't mind." That seems to be the crux of, like, all of his arguments. 'my friends are totally cool with leather thongs and chainmail bikinis and if all women in games have them that's fine and why aren't you Tipper Gore?'
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Jul 14, 2018 04:17
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Dawgstar posted:That seems to be the crux of, like, all of his arguments. 'my friends are totally cool with leather thongs and chainmail bikinis and if all women in games have them that's fine and why aren't you Tipper Gore?' Oh yeah. Even when I first really became aware of him when he blew up the RPGnet thread that was the final straw to get him perma'd there, most of his posts were "I know people who don't care or even like this thing you don't like, therefore you have to provide extensive long-term, double-blind national studies showing that I am wrong." Except of course back then his posting style was even more of a mess than it is now, with crazy line breaks and punctuation, and his poo poo could fairly be summarized as screaming "BUT DID IT MOVE THE NEEDLE?!?!" over and over again.
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Jul 14, 2018 06:29
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That Old Tree posted:Oh yeah. Even when I first really became aware of him when he blew up the RPGnet thread that was the final straw to get him perma'd there, most of his posts were "I know people who don't care or even like this thing you don't like, therefore you have to provide extensive long-term, double-blind national studies showing that I am wrong." Except of course back then his posting style was even more of a mess than it is now, with crazy line breaks and punctuation, and his poo poo could fairly be summarized as screaming "BUT DID IT MOVE THE NEEDLE?!?!" over and over again. Zak S is quite possibly one of the most insufferable people I've ever had the misfortune to interact with, regardless of his lovely behavior otherwise, and to this day it's a regret of mine that I wasn't able to be the one to ban him.
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Jul 14, 2018 06:43
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I've always found it interesting that the response of 'sure, but it bothers the female players, who are also sex-positive feminists and in one case a sex worker, in my group' doesn't hold traction. It's almost as though the position isn't actually based on what the women at his table think or something.
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Jul 14, 2018 10:01
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Kai Tave posted:Zak S is quite possibly one of the most insufferable people I've ever had the misfortune to interact with, regardless of his lovely behavior otherwise, and to this day it's a regret of mine that I wasn't able to be the one to ban him. I remember. "That's just an anecdote. I HAVE PROOF." *Zak provides anecdote as proof*
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Jul 14, 2018 14:22
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Pope Guilty posted:Okay but, like, would he? Probably not, and I doubt many people would in his place. It's one of those scenarios you could have taken out of an Ethics textbook: "You get a job offer from one of your dream companies, and do contracted work for them on one of the most significant IPs in your field for nearly two years as part of the relaunch of a flagship product. After you complete your portion of the work, but before the product is released, the public discovers evidence that your employers and co-designers hold problematic beliefs which will affect the final product, and reflect poorly on the company. Because the industry is small, job offers rely on leveraging networks of personal connections, and reliability is highly prized. Further, the companies who have the greatest capacity to hire you are the most tolerant of the kind of behavior which is now causing controversy. If you issue a public statement condemning this behavior, you will damage your reputation, possibly severely and irreparably, in the portion of the industry that can pay the fees you need to earn a living in the only field your resume will support. If you decline to issue a statement, your reputation among a small but vocal selection of customers will suffer badly, and you will be complicit promoting a hateful ideology which you personally find reprehensible. What do you do?"
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Jul 14, 2018 17:19
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Dawgstar posted:I remember. "That's just an anecdote. I HAVE PROOF." *Zak provides anecdote as proof* Look that other thing didn't happen to him/in his presence, and is thus inherently less important.
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Jul 14, 2018 17:34
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Kestral posted:Probably not, and I doubt many people would in his place. It's one of those scenarios you could have taken out of an Ethics textbook:
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Jul 14, 2018 20:58
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Kestral posted:Probably not, and I doubt many people would in his place. It's one of those scenarios you could have taken out of an Ethics textbook: I like this as an ethical scenario. Is it cool if I borrow it and throw it at some of my friends to see what they'd think?
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Jul 14, 2018 21:17
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WW isn't really a "dream" job for Ken, he's worked with them before- most notably on Cainite Heresy.
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Jul 15, 2018 00:16
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Pope Guilty posted:WW isn't really a "dream" job for Ken, he's worked with them before- most notably on Cainite Heresy. From listening to his podcast, I think his dream job would be working on Call of Cthulhu.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:44
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DocBubonic posted:From listening to his podcast, I think his dream job would be working on Call of Cthulhu. His Cthulhu 101 book was quite entertaining.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:47
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Yeah, he's responsible for Trail of Cthulhu and his current Kickstarter project is an expansion of his book Tour de Lovecraft. Dude loves him some Lovecraft.
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Jul 15, 2018 03:04
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Pope Guilty posted:Yeah, he's responsible for Trail of Cthulhu and his current Kickstarter project is an expansion of his book Tour de Lovecraft. Dude loves him some Lovecraft. Lovecraft everything really annoys me, especially given the people who have done different and interesting stuff with the same themes (for example, Eclipse Phase) instead of just writing more copycat fanfiction.
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Jul 15, 2018 03:13
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He's not a misogynist Nazi (that I know of), but Tony Go still hasn't put his 2017 Kickstarter re-release of Deep Space D-6 into my loving mailbox, and sadly I think it's souring me on the whole idea of crowdfunding game developers (even ones with track records).  On a completely different note, has anybody ever had a good chat with Greg Stafford (of Glorantha fame)? Is he as chill as he seems in random internet videos? I was thinking about trying to corner him for a couple minutes at this year's Gen Con; I have a few grad school-related questions for him about mythology/folklore literature poo poo, and maybe a question or two about writing mythology for games. Trustworthy fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jul 15, 2018 |
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Jul 15, 2018 03:58
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Trustworthy posted:On a completely different note, has anybody ever had a good chat with Greg Stafford (of Glorantha fame)? Is he as chill as he seems in random internet videos? I was thinking about trying to corner him for a couple minutes at this year's Gen Con; I have a few grad school-related questions for him about mythology/folklore literature poo poo, and maybe a question or two about writing mythology for games. I've only spoken to him briefly, but he got a really intense charismatic streak to him underneath the chill hippie exterior. He's definitely worth talking to if you can get the chance. Just be aware that his religious beliefs are genuine and intense. Think of him like a shamanic jesuit. Jeff Richard (who's effectively Greg's successor) is also a great person to chat with about anything mythology related.
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Jul 15, 2018 04:40
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Zereth posted:Isn't Kenneth Hite pretty right-wing, too? He's just one of those rare people who can actually keep their personal views on such out of their work. He voted for Ted Cruz in the primaries so his dial is turned pretty far to the right. Pope Guilty posted:WW isn't really a "dream" job for Ken, he's worked with them before- most notably on Cainite Heresy. I think being a full time employee of a game company is his "dream" job because it's a job that doesn't really exist anymore. NuWW seems to be spending money like crazy on staff and my guess is that Paradox Interactive is just throwing SwedeDrac money because they don't know any better or they're going to run out of money once the book is published and doesn't sell like gangbusters.
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Jul 15, 2018 16:30
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Zereth posted:Isn't Kenneth Hite pretty right-wing, too? He's just one of those rare people who can actually keep their personal views on such out of their work. Hite appears to be one of the equally rare, indeed nigh-mythical "sane Republicans" who didn't completely lose his poo poo when Obama was elected or Trump came on the scene. One of the interesting things about this whole situation is that a central figure (Hite) has far more information about their personal life and views available to us than we're used to, by virtue of around 400 hours of wide-ranging podcasts with a liberal co-host that have segments developed explicitly to politics and world affairs, and how they might be turned to gaming purposes, recorded during both the Obama and Trump eras. Among other things, we know he's a hawk, said the GOP lineup for 2016 were not "actual Republicans," has an immense hate-on for Stalin and Hitler and their followers, believes in anthropogenic climate change, openly mocks MRAs, did an entire segment on the absurdity of Pizzagate, believed Trump was a dangerous buffoon before the election and is completely convinced he's a Russian asset of some variety now, and makes despairing commentary on the slide of America into dysfunctional Fascism for Dummies on a weekly basis. In short, he's what we would have considered a "moderate Republican" in the pre-Tea Party era (a thing that has virtually ceased to exist now) by virtue of his climate change beliefs if nothing else, and is being left further and further behind by his party, but who hasn't had the Overton Window shift far enough to turn him into an actual Democrat. Qoey posted:I like this as an ethical scenario. Is it cool if I borrow it and throw it at some of my friends to see what they'd think? Go for it! I'd be curious to know their answers are, too, if you and they are comfortable with that.
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Jul 15, 2018 19:21
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IIRC Ken dodged the question when Robin asked him flat out whether he believed in climate change, and he has asserted more than once that Hillary Clinton is guilty of money laundering foreign bribes through the Clinton Foundation. So no, not the mythical Good Republican.
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Jul 15, 2018 19:39
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The answer to the ethical question "what do you do when it's impossible to maintain your career without tacitly endorsing terrible poo poo" is "change careers, obviously." There's no like universal rule that you get to have an (ethical) career in making roleplaying games just because you want to and are good at it. And I think that gets at the core of where this thread goes when it's not having 20-page focus groups about werewolf/vampire game controversy. I think we're at a place right now with the pen-n-paper RPG industry where the only way to have a full-time career with decent pay that you can support your family on is to work for one of a handful of big companies all of which have serious ethical problems with their products and/or conduct. Alternatively you can work for any of dozens of indie outfits (or just on your own) making small-press content that will be immensely rewarding and fun to work on in many ways except financially, so you need a main gig and to do this as a side gig or hobby. Have I got that right? Are there any unequivocally good companies making pen'n'paper RPGs that can also maintain well-paid full-time staff? Like... maybe FFG? I'm too out of touch with the PRG industry nowadays to know just off the top of my head.
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Jul 15, 2018 19:48
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Leperflesh posted:Have I got that right? Are there any unequivocally good companies making pen'n'paper RPGs that can also maintain well-paid full-time staff? Like... maybe FFG? I'm too out of touch with the PRG industry nowadays to know just off the top of my head.
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Jul 15, 2018 19:53
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Leperflesh posted:Have I got that right? Are there any unequivocally good companies making pen'n'paper RPGs that can also maintain well-paid full-time staff? Like... maybe FFG? I'm too out of touch with the PRG industry nowadays to know just off the top of my head. Are there any unequivocally good companies period? Like, what career could you change to where you aren't tacitly endorsing something horrible by working in that industry? There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, and there's no real ethical employment under capitalism either for exactly the same reason. You have to pick and choose what you're willing to do and support.
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Jul 15, 2018 20:01
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drunkencarp posted:IIRC Ken dodged the question when Robin asked him flat out whether he believed in climate change, and he has asserted more than once that Hillary Clinton is guilty of money laundering foreign bribes through the Clinton Foundation. So no, not the mythical Good Republican. Turns out, it's a myth for a reason!
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Jul 15, 2018 20:17
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ProfessorCirno posted:Turns out, it's a myth for a reason! Yup plausible deniability is necessary to make the continuing grift possible.
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Jul 15, 2018 20:18
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Idran posted:Are there any unequivocally good companies period? Like, what career could you change to where you aren't tacitly endorsing something horrible by working in that industry? Of course there are. You could, for example, work for an NGO or nonprofit promoting environmental justice, or you could become a doctor or a social worker. That's even if you accept the really quite annoyingly tired catchphrase quote:There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, and there's no real ethical employment under capitalism either for exactly the same reason. which creates a terrible false equivalency such that  I guess it's OK to tacitly endorse the terrible poo poo my employer is doing, because they're all the same. Of course you then immediately contradict that point with quote:You have to pick and choose what you're willing to do and support. Exactly. An RPG contract worker cannot escape the consequences of tacitly endorsing a lovely RPG company on the basis that it's what he has to do to have a career. Because you can pick and choose what you're willing to do and who you're willing to support, up to and including realizing you need to change your career in order to avoid supporting people and ideas and behavior that you know you shouldn't support. So we're back to where we started. Even if you're a full-on full communism now type person (which I think it's safe to say most of us in this thread are not), you still have some degree of choice in what you do with your career and can dedicate yourself to causes that you believe in. I'm really sympathetic to people who don't really have career choices - plenty of people are basically stuck in some manual labor job where they lack the resources necessary to "just make a career change." But in this case we're talking about basically doing creative writing as a career - if you've got the resources to survive writing RPG content, you can probably swing yourself to a writing career in some other field instead. Or accept the consequences of your tacit support. You work for that company, you choose not to disavow them when you find out they're doing something you are not on board with, then you own that, and "but it's my career" doesn't fly as an excuse. That's my answer to Kestral's ethical question. If you genuinely have no choice of employers because of the constraints in your personal situation, then you accept that and look for opportunities to escape that situation. If you do have a choice, though, then you don't get to divorce yourself from the products of your work just because owning them potentially threatens your career.
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Jul 15, 2018 20:30
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Charity is itself problematic because it establishes public goods like housing, environmental security and sustainability, or healthcare as being optional things rather than basic necessities. I am still way happier working in healthcare than I would be as a real estate agent, but we also live in a world drenched in sin and everyone's got to deal with that in whatever way they feel is best.
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Jul 15, 2018 20:50
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drunkencarp posted:IIRC Ken dodged the question when Robin asked him flat out whether he believed in climate change, and he has asserted more than once that Hillary Clinton is guilty of money laundering foreign bribes through the Clinton Foundation. So no, not the mythical Good Republican. news flash: that is literally why charities like this exist do you really think the Clinton family are selfless philanthropists? because lmao I supported her hardcore in 2016 and I didn't even think that back then The Clinton Foundation does a lot of good but you are hopelessly naive if you think that a family that shrewd would ever do anything for anyone without expecting something in return You don't have to be a nazi to distrust people holding that kind of political power If the only position your opposition can occupy is the most extreme one by virtue of any position they hold your political calculus is messed up Mirthless fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jul 15, 2018 |
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Jul 15, 2018 20:51
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Mirthless posted:news flash: that is literally why charities like this exist Going after Clinton for having a foundation while ignoring that Trump also had a foundation is hypocrisy and shows that you don't actually give a poo poo about the validity of the foundation, just that you wanted an excuse to attack Clinton.
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Jul 15, 2018 20:57
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clockworkjoe posted:Going after Clinton for having a foundation while ignoring that Trump also had a foundation is hypocrisy and shows that you don't actually give a poo poo about the validity of the foundation, just that you wanted an excuse to attack Clinton. What a shock, people are partisan about political issues How much hand wringing and public acknowledgement do you make of all the lovely things our politicians do? Does your unwillingness to call out left political figures in equal amounts to your callouts of right political figures make you a dyed in the wool communist, lusting for the overthrow of the government and the persecution and eradication of Christians? (maybe ironically yes, but obviously no)
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Jul 15, 2018 20:58
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