Bad With Money 2018: When I die, bury me in the blockchain.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Bad With Money 2018: When I die, bury me in the blockchain.

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Krispy Wafer: Jul 26, 2002; I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat; Grimey Drawer

Yeah, but you can declare bankruptcy on a person loan.

I think I just figured out a loophole!

# ? Jul 17, 2018 14:58

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# ? May 17, 2024 16:20

Jack2142: Jul 17, 2014; Shitposting in Seattle

Krispy Wafer posted:

Yeah, but you can declare bankruptcy on a person loan.

I think I just figured out a loophole!

One weird Trick, the Banks hate him!

# ? Jul 17, 2018 15:01

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Also, in a macro BWM story, the new fiscal year started and we had to do an annual review of benefits.

They used to have a 457(b) employer contribution program to encourage people to use save for retirement. It wasn't super great, but every paycheck where you contributed at least $1 to your 457(b), they would contribute $25.

They cancelled it in 2009 for budget reasons and they were talking about bringing it back. It was quickly shot down because apparently less than 6% of employees contribute anything to the 457(b) and it was too expensive.

Then, they decided to poll everyone about whether they would participate if there was a 2% match on all contributions. The poll was worded something like, "Would you participate in [the 457(b) program] if [employer] provided a 2% match to all of your contributions? Under this plan, any money deducted from your paycheck to the 457(b) would receive an additional 2% of the total amount from [employer]."

Some people didn't realize this was a poll and flipped poo poo. There were a bunch of people coming up to the HR office (who is next door to me) thinking that they were getting 2% of their paycheck put into the 457(b) automatically. People were claiming that the match didn't matter because they would lose their house if they took out the 2%.

In the end, about 10% of people were confused and flipped poo poo, some tiny amount in the single digits said that they would start using the 457(b) if they matched, about 40% didn't respond, and another 40% said no.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Jul 17, 2018

# ? Jul 17, 2018 15:10

Hoodwinker: Nov 7, 2005

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Also, in a macro BWM story, the new fiscal year started and we had to do an annual review of benefits.

They used to have a 457(b) employer contribution program to encourage people to use save for retirement. It wasn't super great, but every paycheck where you contributed at least $1 to your 457(b), they would contribute $25.

They cancelled it in 2009 for budget reasons and they were talking about bringing it back. It was quickly shot down because apparently less than 6% of employees contribute anything to the 457(b) and it was too expensive.

Then, they decided to poll everyone about whether they would participate if there was a 2% match on all contributions. The poll was worded something like, "Would you participate in [the 457(b) program] if [employer] provided a 2% match to all of your contributions? Under this plan, any money deducted from your paycheck to the 457(b) would receive an addition 2% of the total amount from [employer]."

Some people didn't realize this was a poll and flipped poo poo. There were a bunch of people coming up to the HR office (who is next door to me) thinking that they were getting 2% of their paycheck put into the 457(b) automatically. People were claiming that the match didn't matter because they would lose their house if they took out the 2%.

In the end, about 10% of people were confused and flipped poo poo, some tiny amount in the single digits said that they would start using the 457(b) if they matched, about 40% didn't respond, and another 40% said no.

This is basically what I expect I'm going to run into when I give my presentation next week. I have a part in there where I'm going to outright state, "If you take nothing else away from this presentation: put in 5% to get our 4% 401k match. It is literally free money. You aren't even losing 5% of your paycheck because of tax savings. You could withdraw the money with the penalty and still come out ahead." and I still wholly expect somebody to argue with me about it.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 15:31

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

My coworker who went from full-time to casual/seasonal (losing her benefits) and took out a loan to focus on her online law degree is crying at her desk because she missed her first exam.

Apparently, there is a proctor with the local school that does the exams in person. She assumed it would be online as well and was just waiting for them to upload it. I have no idea how clear they made this to students, but it feels like something you should know.

Now, she says that she is looking into personal loans to cover another semester because she feels like this one is ruined. It might be, I have no idea how the grading works. She is apparently unable to take out any more student loans, so she's going to take out a personal loan somewhere instead of coming back full-time because... she needs to focus entirely on studying for exams.

online law degree is turbo bwm

# ? Jul 17, 2018 15:35

Blinkman987: Jul 10, 2008; Gender roles guilt me into being fat.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Some people didn't realize this was a poll and flipped poo poo. There were a bunch of people coming up to the HR office (who is next door to me) thinking that they were getting 2% of their paycheck put into the 457(b) automatically. People were claiming that the match didn't matter because they would lose their house if they took out the 2%.

They�re probably going to lose their house at some point anyways if they�re riding a razors edge like that. Hooray!

I consider myself a socialist, but people like this make me reconsider my position in some ways.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 15:39

Elephanthead: Sep 11, 2008; Toilet Rascal

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

online law degree is turbo bwm

Turbos actually add efficiency so it is more like the oversized carb of bad with money.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 15:39

Krispy Wafer: Jul 26, 2002; I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat; Grimey Drawer

Hoodwinker posted:

This is basically what I expect I'm going to run into when I give my presentation next week. I have a part in there where I'm going to outright state, "If you take nothing else away from this presentation: put in 5% to get our 4% 401k match. It is literally free money. You aren't even losing 5% of your paycheck because of tax savings. You could withdraw the money with the penalty and still come out ahead." and I still wholly expect somebody to argue with me about it.

The government literally tried to decrease the 401k contribution limit because it was such a great tax dodge. Like if you make more than X amount of money (well below the guillotine cut-off) you're losing money not contributing to a 401k.

When the company I was IT contracted out of merged with another and tried to reset the very limited benefits I got to that of a day 1 employee, I fought for the right to keep my lovely lovely 401k with zero match because otherwise I was going to pay an extra $1500 in taxes.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 15:42

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Krispy Wafer posted:

The government literally tried to decrease the 401k contribution limit because it was such a great tax dodge. Like if you make more than X amount of money (well below the guillotine cut-off) you're losing money not contributing to a 401k.

When the company I was IT contracted out of merged with another and tried to reset the very limited benefits I got to that of a day 1 employee, I fought for the right to keep my lovely lovely 401k with zero match because otherwise I was going to pay an extra $1500 in taxes.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 15:45

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Elephanthead posted:

Turbos actually add efficiency so it is more like the oversized carb of bad with money.

wrong turbos make your EPA cycle test dope but in reality nothing good happens except they break and are expensive :iiaca:

# ? Jul 17, 2018 15:50

John Smith: Feb 26, 2015; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Blinkman987 posted:

I consider myself a socialist, but people like this make me reconsider my position in some ways.

For new members, please note that coffee is available at the back.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 16:02

Not a Children: Oct 9, 2012; Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Krispy Wafer posted:

The government literally tried to decrease the 401k contribution limit because it was such a great tax dodge. Like if you make more than X amount of money (well below the guillotine cut-off) you're losing money not contributing to a 401k.

When the company I was IT contracted out of merged with another and tried to reset the very limited benefits I got to that of a day 1 employee, I fought for the right to keep my lovely lovely 401k with zero match because otherwise I was going to pay an extra $1500 in taxes.

Isn't it really just deferring taxes

I mean I suppose if you live on less in retirement it'll lower your overall liability, but who knows what the tax structure will be in 30-40 years

# ? Jul 17, 2018 16:02

The Macaroni: Dec 20, 2002; ...it does nothing.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Some people didn't realize this was a poll and flipped poo poo. There were a bunch of people coming up to the HR office (who is next door to me) thinking that they were getting 2% of their paycheck put into the 457(b) automatically. People were claiming that the match didn't matter because they would lose their house if they took out the 2%.

Um.

How do they account for inflation? I mean I know the answer, they rack up more consumer debt, but still.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 16:07

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Not a Children posted:

Isn't it really just deferring taxes

I mean I suppose if you live on less in retirement it'll lower your overall liability, but who knows what the tax structure will be in 30-40 years

It's more than deferring taxes. You are starting with more money in the account to invest earlier, any realized gains have no immediate tax consequences (for portfolio rebalancing or fund types that throw off dividends, switch securities, etc) leading to....more money to invest earlier.

There is a place for both Roth and traditional that may fit different's people investing philosophy, but traditional 401(k)s and IRAs are a whole lot more than "deferring taxes". Since no one knows what the tax structure will look like in 30-40 years, or even a couple years from now, there is always going to be some level of uncertainty with any type of retirement planning.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 16:08

Droo: Jun 25, 2003

Not a Children posted:

Isn't it really just deferring taxes

I mean I suppose if you live on less in retirement it'll lower your overall liability, but who knows what the tax structure will be in 30-40 years

You get the difference in marginal tax rate for when you put it in to when you take it out/roll it into a Roth IRA which can be pretty big depending on your situation. Anyone who plans to retire early or take a few years off work or switch into a lower-paying career at some point, for example, will probably save the difference between a 25%+ marginal rate deducted and a 0% or 12% rate paid on the rollover. This can also work the other way if you become rich, but let's face it we are all going to be replaced by robots and fighting in back alley blood sport pits for food scraps 20 years from now anyway.

On top of that, you will end up with an extra 10-20% of money in the account after 20 or 30 years (compared to a normal taxable account invested in the same thing and after all taxes are accounted for) by not having to pay capital gains taxes along the way.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 16:16

Sepherothic: Feb 8, 2003

I got low-key pitched World Financial Group during lunch this week. It's a whole life insurance MLM.

Had to spend the next hour trying to explain why traditional corporate structures like microsoft aren't a pyramid and MLMs are.

It didn't work.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 16:18

Krispy Wafer: Jul 26, 2002; I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat; Grimey Drawer

Motronic posted:

It's more than deferring taxes. You are starting with more money in the account to invest earlier, any realized gains have no immediate tax consequences (for portfolio rebalancing or fund types that throw off dividends, switch securities, etc) leading to....more money to invest earlier.

There is a place for both Roth and traditional that may fit different's people investing philosophy, but traditional 401(k)s and IRAs are a whole lot more than "deferring taxes". Since no one knows what the tax structure will look like in 30-40 years, or even a couple years from now, there is always going to be some level of uncertainty with any type of retirement planning.

Ideally you have a mix of deferred retirement, real estate (i.e. your hopefully paid off home) and stock/mutual fund investments.

This is to diversify, but also because every one of those is taxed differently. So if you're old and develop a worrisome cough you can focus on drawing down your 401k balances since that's the one thing your heirs will be taxed on. And when you die your kids can get that home and investment account tax free to spend on horses and blow.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 16:31

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

Blinkman987 posted:

They’re probably going to lose their house at some point anyways if they’re riding a razors edge like that. Hooray!

I consider myself a socialist, but people like this make me reconsider my position in some ways.

Seems like a great example of why mandatory social safety nets, e.g. social security, are necessary to protect people from running themselves into destitution.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 17:41

Lockback: Sep 3, 2006; All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Also, in a macro BWM story, the new fiscal year started and we had to do an annual review of benefits.

They used to have a 457(b) employer contribution program to encourage people to use save for retirement. It wasn't super great, but every paycheck where you contributed at least $1 to your 457(b), they would contribute $25.

They cancelled it in 2009 for budget reasons and they were talking about bringing it back. It was quickly shot down because apparently less than 6% of employees contribute anything to the 457(b) and it was too expensive.

Then, they decided to poll everyone about whether they would participate if there was a 2% match on all contributions. The poll was worded something like, "Would you participate in [the 457(b) program] if [employer] provided a 2% match to all of your contributions? Under this plan, any money deducted from your paycheck to the 457(b) would receive an additional 2% of the total amount from [employer]."

Some people didn't realize this was a poll and flipped poo poo. There were a bunch of people coming up to the HR office (who is next door to me) thinking that they were getting 2% of their paycheck put into the 457(b) automatically. People were claiming that the match didn't matter because they would lose their house if they took out the 2%.

In the end, about 10% of people were confused and flipped poo poo, some tiny amount in the single digits said that they would start using the 457(b) if they matched, about 40% didn't respond, and another 40% said no.

Wait, so does this mean if you contributed $1000 into the fund they'd toss in $20? Because if so that is pretty lovely.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 19:22

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Lockback posted:

Wait, so does this mean if you contributed $1000 into the fund they'd toss in $20? Because if so that is pretty lovely.

Yes, but there is currently no match.

I would think that people would at least want the option of free money compared to nothing, but people would rather have nothing/don't care.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 19:32

Inept: Jul 8, 2003

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

I would think that people would at least want the option of free money compared to nothing, but people would rather have nothing/don't care.

If your average person is putting in $250 a month in to their retirement, they'll get a $5 match. Who cares at that point, the fees will matter a lot more.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 19:51

Krispy Wafer: Jul 26, 2002; I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat; Grimey Drawer

Inept posted:

If your average person is putting in $250 a month in to their retirement, they'll get a $5 match. Who cares at that point, the fees will matter a lot more.

Would it be $5? In my job's case it's 3.5%. So if I contributed let's just say $322 every month (not my contribution, not self posting, please don't probate) you would get approximately $188 in matching funds.

In a world where you got a flat 2% you'd get $106 every month.

I remember we had a lot of confusion about some terrible job where they matched like 5% of your contribution versus 5% of your salary. In which case your $250 contribution would get you $12.50.

Krispy Wafer fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Jul 17, 2018

# ? Jul 17, 2018 20:38

wilderthanmild: Jun 21, 2010; Posting shit; Grimey Drawer

I've seen a lovely employer use sneaky wording of a "100% match" _{up to $5 a month} on an HSA

# ? Jul 17, 2018 20:58

Olive Branch: May 26, 2010; There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

i mean look if you're going to take it to that level might as well just buy .308 / 5.56 / 7.62 / .22lr by the case

I, too, wish to make my home worth looting in Fallout: New Vegas.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 21:06

GoGoGadgetChris: Mar 18, 2010; i powder a
granite monument
in a soundless flash

showering the grass
with molten drops of
its gold inlay

sending smoking
chips of stone
skipping into the fog

Is it weird that all of our references to economic collapse also involve killing each other with guns and bullets?

Is there any way for it to play out where we're poor but not warlords

# ? Jul 17, 2018 21:12

metallicaeg: Nov 28, 2005; Evil Red Wings Owner Wario Lemieux Steals Stanley Cup

My current employer has a poo poo match. It's 25% match up to the first 4% of your salary.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 21:14

Leviathan Song: Sep 8, 2010

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Yes, but there is currently no match.

I would think that people would at least want the option of free money compared to nothing, but people would rather have nothing/don't care.

If you have a 401K it also limits your IRA deductions so if the fees are high enough, the 401K could actually be limiting your options. My wife's employer plan has no match, 4% expense ratio on the cheapest funds, and disqualifies her from contributing to an outside IRA. An option for a $20 match wouldn't really change anything about that.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 21:59

SiGmA_X: May 3, 2004; SiGmA_X

My friends company has a their-choice match. Term escapes me. He said it works out to nothing or basically nothing depending on the year.

GoGoGadgetChris posted:

Is it weird that all of our references to economic collapse also involve killing each other with guns and bullets?

Is there any way for it to play out where we're poor but not warlords

No. This is America.

(I don�t own guns, I�m screwed.)

# ? Jul 17, 2018 22:17

BMan: Oct 31, 2015; KNIIIIIIFE
EEEEEYYYYE
ATTAAAACK

Leviathan Song posted:

4% expense ratio on the cheapest funds

# ? Jul 17, 2018 22:19

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Leviathan Song posted:

If you have a 401K it also limits your IRA deductions so if the fees are high enough, the 401K could actually be limiting your options. My wife's employer plan has no match, 4% expense ratio on the cheapest funds, and disqualifies her from contributing to an outside IRA. An option for a $20 match wouldn't really change anything about that.

Nah. We have institutional Vanguard funds. I contribute to both my IRA and 457(b).

No reason to oppose a match.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 22:31

SiGmA_X: May 3, 2004; SiGmA_X

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Nah. We have institutional Vanguard funds. I contribute to both my IRA and 457(b).

No reason to oppose a match.

Except, you see, you are materially smarter than your coworkers.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 22:46

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Nah. We have institutional Vanguard funds. I contribute to both my IRA and 457(b).

No reason to oppose a match.

eh. It's kinda like getting a raise of $20/year. Free money is never a bad thing. But it is insultingly low.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 22:49

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Dik Hz posted:

eh. It's kinda like getting a raise of $20/year. Free money is never a bad thing. But it is insultingly low.

Gotta take any extra compensation you can get in the public sector. We just got our first raise in 7 years and it was 1.5% or $500, whichever is higher.

Insultingly low is pretty much the motto for most public sector compensation.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 23:32

Suspicious Lump: Mar 11, 2004

Is Leon Trotsky crazy workplace (in regards to apathy towards retirement/employer matching) representative of American workplace?

In Australia, apart from the standard employer contribution a lot (especially universities) have very generous matching schemes. Everyone I know participates in the scheme because it's free money even though our retirement accounts are only accessible for specific reasons (retirement, illness, etc).

# ? Jul 18, 2018 00:43

Guinness: Sep 15, 2004

In the states it's up to employer discretion how generously they match retirement account contributions, or if they even offer one at all. So naturally it is all over the map in outcomes. Some places have great plans with great matches, some places have poo poo plans with no matches, and some places have nothing at all.

With how bad general financial literacy and planning is, it's an often-overlooked but important part of a company's total comp package that makes a big difference over the years. It's extra sad when dumb dumbs don't participate when offered great plans.

# ? Jul 18, 2018 00:57

neonbregna: Aug 20, 2007

Good Parmesan posted:

The 7 second window refers to the time he has before the odds change, as it's considered "in-play betting." The bet he is playing is for win/lose, I believe, based on the spread and odds given at the moment before the pitch.

He's been scalping seats before every game to try to get as close to the catcher he can.

One weird trick bookies hate

# ? Jul 18, 2018 01:13

Dr. Eldarion: Mar 21, 2001; Deal Dispatcher

Guinness posted:

In the states it's up to employer discretion how generously they match retirement account contributions, or if they even offer one at all. So naturally it is all over the map in outcomes. Some places have great plans with great matches, some places have poo poo plans with no matches, and some places have nothing at all.

To see some of the best: https://blog.brightscope.com/2018/02/23/brightscope-2016-top-30-401k-plans/

Edit: hmm, this doesn't show the specifics anymore, disappointing. I can't find any good articles that list the stats accurately. Never mind. :negative:

Dr. Eldarion fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jul 18, 2018

# ? Jul 18, 2018 01:34

uvar: Jul 25, 2011; Avoid breathing
radioactive dust.; College Slice

Suspicious Lump posted:

Is Leon Trotsky crazy workplace (in regards to apathy towards retirement/employer matching) representative of American workplace?

In Australia, apart from the standard employer contribution a lot (especially universities) have very generous matching schemes. Everyone I know participates in the scheme because it's free money even though our retirement accounts are only accessible for specific reasons (retirement, illness, etc).

Don't forget the option to withdraw up to $30k of special contributions to buy housing! Which felt to me like a desperate attempt to prop up the housing bubble except that it's still only a fraction of the deposit needed in the capitals.

# ? Jul 18, 2018 02:00

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Suspicious Lump posted:

Is Leon Trotsky crazy workplace (in regards to apathy towards retirement/employer matching) representative of American workplace?

In Australia, apart from the standard employer contribution a lot (especially universities) have very generous matching schemes. Everyone I know participates in the scheme because it's free money even though our retirement accounts are only accessible for specific reasons (retirement, illness, etc).

Part of the reason people here don't care about the 457(b) is because we also have a pension. But, they have been cutting the pension benefits and increasing the employee contributions to save money and encourage people to use the defined contribution plans. But... nobody does, so they just cut the pension benefits and don't beef up the 457(b) benefits because when they think about spending more money on the 457(b) they say that "nobody uses it."

Here's some terrifying stats on American retirement:

55% of Americans have access to employer-provided retirement accounts.
41% of Americans with access to a 401k do not contribute anything to it.
The average annual contribution to a 401k for someone under 35 is $700.
18% of Americans with 401(k) savings have an outstanding 401(k) loan.
The average American's 401(k) balance is $96,288.
The average American has $189,491 in their retirement accounts when they turn 65.
38% of Americans get 90% or more of their income in retirement from only social security.
68% of Americans get 51% or more of their income in retirement from social security.
The average social security benefit is roughly $15,000 per year.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Jul 18, 2018

# ? Jul 18, 2018 02:18

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# ? May 17, 2024 16:20

GoGoGadgetChris: Mar 18, 2010; i powder a
granite monument
in a soundless flash

showering the grass
with molten drops of
its gold inlay

sending smoking
chips of stone
skipping into the fog

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Here's some terrifying stats are American retirement:

55% of Americans have access to employer-provided retirement accounts.
41% of Americans with access to a 401k do not contribute anything to it.
The average annual contribution to a 401k for someone under 35 is $700
The average American's 401(k) balance is $96,288.
The average American has $189,491 in their retirement accounts when they turn 65.
38% of Americans get 90% or more of their income in retirement from only social security.
68% of Americans get 51% or more of their income in retirement from social security.
The average social security benefit is $15,000 per year.

I know DOZENS of people who use this data as a reason not to contribute to retirement accounts

"Nobody is saving enough so the government is gonna raid all the accounts to pay out more SS to those who didn't save. I don't want to work hard to save money just so it'll get taken away and redistributed"

# ? Jul 18, 2018 02:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Bad With Money 2018: When I die, bury me in the blockchain.

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