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Space Cadet Omoly posted:See, in order for this to work the "Raider scum" would have to NOT try to shoot me in the head first. But then, if they didn't shoot me in the head, I would never have any reason to target them and would probably never even know what they were called. The reason Raiders are bad is because of what they do not what they're named. If you had the VATS system suddenly target companions as "Raider Scum" people's first thoughts wouldn't be "OMG it's a VAULT TEC CONSPIRACY!!!" It would "Ugh, yet another stupid glitch, thanks Bethesda" because the game makes it very clear who's good (hint: it's the people NOT shooting at you) and who's an rear end in a top hat (hint: it's the people who ARE shooting at you) regardless of what they're named or flagged as. The best example of atrocities being committed and giving the player a choice is "No Russian" in Call of Duty Modern Warfare. You HAVE to be there, but you don't have to shoot if you don't want to. But I have a feeling that's not what they wanted to do with Spec Ops.
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Jul 17, 2018 16:12
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The mistake spec-ops made was that one of the writers mouthing off that the player was morally responsible for the scripted sequences. Taken as just a story about how a group of upstanding soldiers let themselves get further drawn into a clusterfuck through the sunk cost fallacy, it works fine as a criticism of how uncritically other military shooters treat their subject matter. I think it's really telling that people get so hung up about how clever they were to figure out that the big blob of dots were civilians that they never actually address the point the sequence is making; that reducing warfare to just targeting dots on a computer screen is hosed up, dehumanizing, and makes it really easy for horrible accidents to happen.
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Jul 17, 2018 16:53
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Spec Ops' real failure is they ran out of time and budget and cut like half the game, including the half where you could not deploy white phosphorous.
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Jul 17, 2018 16:57
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Dalael posted:The best example of atrocities being committed and giving the player a choice is "No Russian" in Call of Duty Modern Warfare. You HAVE to be there, but you don't have to shoot if you don't want to. But I have a feeling that's not what they wanted to do with Spec Ops. Oh for sure, and for the record I do think Spec Ops is a good game, I just also understand why people would criticize it. In conclusion, Dubai is a land of contrasts. Thank You.
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Jul 17, 2018 16:58
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Keeshhound posted:I think it's really telling that people get so hung up about how clever they were to figure out that the big blob of dots were civilians that they never actually address the point the sequence is making; that reducing warfare to just targeting dots on a computer screen is hosed up, dehumanizing, and makes it really easy for horrible accidents to happen. I think shittons of people noticing kinda kills that point a little. Agreed that if the writer wasn't such an idiot about it maybe people wouldn't have cared so much.
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Jul 17, 2018 17:25
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2house2fly posted:That's Dean, you ask him about the vending machines and he says something like "oh yeah we had stuff like this everywhere back in the day, cooler stuff actually." I kind of think he's bullshitting I always read that as him talking about vending machines in general. "Yeah you could get Fancy Lads on EVERY STREET CORNER how about them apples"
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Jul 17, 2018 21:53
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:I dunno, I've seen this particular criticism of Spec Ops before and I actually think it's a valid one. Whenever you force players mechanically to preform an atrocity to advance the game they're never going to feel like they "own it" in the same way as when you organically let them make that choice. Case in point: Remember that time in Lonesome Road where the game forces you to launch a nuke in order to progress and then Ulysses tries to make them feel guilty about it? I've never seen anyone come out of that thinking "oh goodness I'm such an awful person" but I've seen a ton of people who's response is "This is stupid and Ulysses is a loving turd" because that wasn't an example of the players making a choice it was an example of the game mocking you for playing it the only way it can be played (something that can really take people out of the moment and muddle whatever message you're trying to convey). I think this an in-character moment from Ulysses which people mistake as "the game" making some pronouncement at them. The stated aim of the story's author was to make the player feel flattered, validated, and powerful; having the antagonist berate you for a transparently-engineered false choice (likely one he set up himself) strikes me as designed to put the player on the defensive, and set up the later reveal that your entire journey with ED-E is engineered by Ulysses to make you complicit in his atrocity. Whatever Ulysses says or does, at the end of the day you defeat him- and, since this is a fictional story, you defeating Ulysses symbolically means that what you represent is triumphant over what he represents
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Jul 18, 2018 01:50
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lol edit1: I only thought I had opinions about video games... edit2: Also, goddamnit, Ada is bugged out and whenever I dismiss her she rolls her stupid rear end back to the spot where I built a robot workstation the first time and just sits there no matter where I tell her to go. Automatron is cool, but it's also a buggy piece of poo poo. I think I'm just going to delet her with the console. She's the worst. Yes, you offended me Ada. Yes, you misinterpreted. Cyberpunkey Monkey fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 04:18
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Cyberpunkey Monkey posted:lol I'd take Ada over Jezebel any day
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Jul 18, 2018 07:16
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Or you could just not launch the nukes
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Jul 18, 2018 07:25
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Dr.Smasher posted:I'd take Ada over Jezebel any day Jezebel sasses, but at least she goes where I tell her to go.
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Jul 18, 2018 07:30
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Spec Ops did one part well, though - there’s a scene where you’re attacked by a civilian mob, and you can just shoot them, like you’ve done with everything so far in the game, OR you can shoot into the air to get the mob to disperse.
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Jul 18, 2018 07:40
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ymgve posted:Spec Ops did one part well, though - there’s a scene where you’re attacked by a civilian mob, and you can just shoot them, like you’ve done with everything so far in the game, OR you can shoot into the air to get the mob to disperse. Exactly. The game has places where player can spot their options and use them, Which highlights the dumbness of the ”But thou must-” forced choice. My biggest gripe is the overhyped ”omg it deconstructs shooters” when it does that half-assedly and the ”moral points” are mostly just marketing hype. Again, for similar bad ways to creating narrative, look little lamplight and ulysses in lomesome road.
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Jul 18, 2018 10:08
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Internet Wizard posted:Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who thought that OWB was one-note and tedious past the first 10-15 minutes. Both the combat and the conversations were just a looooot of "oh it's going to be a lot more of this over and over." I ran into some of this too, but overall still enjoyed OWB. I'd probably put it at the top of my DLC list, though I admittedly flamed out less than half way through Honest Hearts. I'd trade every Fallout DLC ever for an occasional spinoff entry like New Vegas, though. Easily. I feel like DLC is always a poor use of dev time.
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Jul 18, 2018 13:38
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2house2fly posted:I think this an in-character moment from Ulysses which people mistake as "the game" making some pronouncement at them. The stated aim of the story's author was to make the player feel flattered, validated, and powerful; having the antagonist berate you for a transparently-engineered false choice (likely one he set up himself) strikes me as designed to put the player on the defensive, and set up the later reveal that your entire journey with ED-E is engineered by Ulysses to make you complicit in his atrocity. Whatever Ulysses says or does, at the end of the day you defeat him- and, since this is a fictional story, you defeating Ulysses symbolically means that what you represent is triumphant over what he represents Yeah, you really can't take Ulysses at face value. Ulysses is a loon who views the world through an obsession with symbolism and the secret meaning that he sees in everything. The Courier has no loving clue who he is, but he's crafted his entire worldview and personality around finding a meaning in the Courier accidentally blowing up his town and creates an elaborate gauntlet to try and manipulate them into agreeing with him. And then you actually meet Ulysses and have the option to basically go "....I have no idea who the gently caress you are, but gently caress you anyway" and shoot him in the face.
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Jul 18, 2018 14:45
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Azhais posted:Or you could just not launch the nukes yeah but I paid $5 for this DLC and I'll be damned if I'm not gonna launch that nuke
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Jul 18, 2018 15:04
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It's just one little nuke.
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Jul 18, 2018 15:06
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Honestly all the post scarcity tech being used for dumb poo poo/kept secret is basically perfect human nature for us being dumb asses who just lucked upon tools for destroying/saving the world potentially. People more concerned for the bottom line/keeping in control no matter what while missing the bigger picture is extremely fitting.
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Jul 18, 2018 15:33
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Azhais posted:Or you could just not launch the nukes Screw that, launch 'em all. Gotta get that sweet Powder Ganger rep! 
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Jul 18, 2018 15:49
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chitoryu12 posted:Yeah, you really can't take Ulysses at face value. Ulysses is a loon who views the world through an obsession with symbolism and the secret meaning that he sees in everything. The Courier has no loving clue who he is, but he's crafted his entire worldview and personality around finding a meaning in the Courier accidentally blowing up his town and creates an elaborate gauntlet to try and manipulate them into agreeing with him. Ulysses registered to me as a very troubled, traumatized guy who had a lovely life. He's trying to make sense of the insane world he lives in. When he finally found peace and happiness it got blown up. He looked for somebody to blame and all he could really find was the Courier who delivered the box. He seems very jaded and sees the conflict in the world being rallied around symbols like it was in history. This ideal against that ideal. Bear and bull, fighting for dominance so they can be the side that decides the fate of the Mojave whether the people there agree or not.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:01
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Ulysses registered to me as a very troubled, traumatized guy who had a lovely life. He's trying to make sense of the insane world he lives in. When he finally found peace and happiness it got blown up. He looked for somebody to blame and all he could really find was the Courier who delivered the box. He's so jaded that his perspective has ended up warped until he's incapable of seeing anything except as symbols vs. symbols. When he meets the Courier in person, he can't see their actions in any context except helping the bear or the Bull. Were you going independent or helping House or playing both sides until you figure out what to do? Too bad, he's just focused on the Bear and the Bull and who you seem to be doing more for. The only way he can see to move forward is to destroy the Bear and the Bull, removing the symbols that he seems to think everything revolves around. He believes himself to be enlightened, and so he ironically loses his understanding of anything else and any other point of view. He can only try to force the Courier's actions into his own box. He's about as enlightened as a philosophy student who recently discovered something he likes to believe in and has started classifying everyone and everything within that philosophical system.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:16
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2house2fly posted:I think this an in-character moment from Ulysses which people mistake as "the game" making some pronouncement at them. The stated aim of the story's author was to make the player feel flattered, validated, and powerful; having the antagonist berate you for a transparently-engineered false choice (likely one he set up himself) strikes me as designed to put the player on the defensive, and set up the later reveal that your entire journey with ED-E is engineered by Ulysses to make you complicit in his atrocity. Whatever Ulysses says or does, at the end of the day you defeat him- and, since this is a fictional story, you defeating Ulysses symbolically means that what you represent is triumphant over what he represents Yeah, I could see that fitting in with Ulysses's modus operandi. But man, if Lonsome Roads goal was to make me feel "flattered, validated, and powerful" then it did not succeed. Don't get me wrong, I liked it, but the vibe it gave me wasn't so much "ultimate power fantasy" as it was "Vague misery coupled with unfocused rage". The whole DLC is spent wandering around a broken and ruined city surrounded by angry zombies and mutant frog people and the one person who speaks English hates and resents you and expresses that fact regularly through long passive-aggressive philosophical rants. The only thing present that lightens the mood is dear sweet ED-E and in order to prevent a nuclear holocaust you have to let him commit suicide. Again, like I said, I enjoyed it. It was just kind of a downer, ya know? ToxicSlurpee posted:Ulysses registered to me as a very troubled, traumatized guy who had a lovely life. He's trying to make sense of the insane world he lives in. When he finally found peace and happiness it got blown up. He looked for somebody to blame and all he could really find was the Courier who delivered the box. That was how he came off to me too. Ulysses is a sad, sad man. What makes his situation even sadder is that he's incredibly intelligent and talented with heaps of untapped potential. In the old world he probably would have been a history professor at Yale or Harvard, but in the new world of the wasteland he ended up as a crazy desert hobo.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:42
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chitoryu12 posted:Yeah, you really can't take Ulysses at face value. Ulysses is a loon who views the world through an obsession with symbolism and the secret meaning that he sees in everything. The Courier has no loving clue who he is, but he's crafted his entire worldview and personality around finding a meaning in the Courier accidentally blowing up his town and creates an elaborate gauntlet to try and manipulate them into agreeing with him. I think one of the missteps they made with Ulysses' character is that you only actually find that out about Ulysses when you get to Lonesome Road, which if you were playing at the time of release was after almost an entire year of buildup from the original release to Lonesome Road. You hear from Ulysses perspective in Dead Money and OWB that the two of you have history, that you changed his life, but that point of view stands unchallenged right up until you confront him, and since you have no reason to suppose that Ulysses is a loon, you've no reason not to just assume that his view is correct. Even when you actually get to Lonesome Road, it's not actually established that the Courier doesn't have any idea what Ulysses is talking about until the conversation at the High Road, like four quests into the DLC. It's also kind of unclear what bits of Ulysses' narrative are true and which are false. He claims the Courier was the trailblazer for the divide, proved it was a possible route between California and Vegas. The courier can say there is no supply line to the Mojave other than the Long 15. He claims that the courier made regular deliveries to the town in the Divide. The Courier doesn't even remember the only town on this road between California and Primm. But Ulysses can't really be wrong about these things, because for the first point Cass confirms in another conversation that her caravans used to travel the divide, and for the second, if the route is faster than the Long 15 (hence why the NCR supply chain is overstretched with the destruction of the faster route), why wouldn't the courier have visited the town multiple times? And if so, how could they forget the only town on the road, one that had an NCR military base? You'd think that the sudden destruction of the only town on a supply run in a giant catastrophe shortly after your last visit would stick in your mind. On my first playthrough of Lonesome Road, I actually initially thought it was the courier who was wrong about the events, because the notion that she'd just forget about a town which she'd travelled through multiple times and just one day vanished in a catastrophe seemed ridiculous. Reveilled fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 21:24
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quote:And if so, how could they forget the only town on the road, one that had an NCR military base? The bullet didn't cause any memory loss except for anything regarding that specific town. 
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Jul 18, 2018 21:30
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RBA Starblade posted:The bullet didn't cause any memory loss except for anything regarding that specific town. Alternately Ulysses is just a crazy person
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Jul 18, 2018 21:39
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I like my idea more
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Jul 18, 2018 21:40
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is honest hearts supposed to reflect how caesar said he created the legion?
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Jul 18, 2018 21:57
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RBA Starblade posted:The bullet didn't cause any memory loss except for anything regarding that specific town. Amusingly, that could mean that Ulysses is actually 100% spot on in all the stuff he says about the town being your home. Maybe you had a house and a family in the town in the Divide, nuked it by accident, and now you're engaging in a Shutter Island-style delusion that you're just some other courier and it had nothing to do with you.
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Jul 18, 2018 21:57
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guns for tits posted:is honest hearts supposed to reflect how caesar said he created the legion? Yes.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:02
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ChaseSP posted:Honestly all the post scarcity tech being used for dumb poo poo/kept secret is basically perfect human nature for us being dumb asses who just lucked upon tools for destroying/saving the world potentially. People more concerned for the bottom line/keeping in control no matter what while missing the bigger picture is extremely fitting. This perspective on humanity is one of the things I really enjoy about the Fallout games. In the table-top RPG Eclipse Phase humanity was almost completely destroyed by a runaway AI. Humanity only survived because the AI stopped suddenly and disappeared into deep space. You learn that much of the AI's early success and really the only reason it lived long enough to go out of control was due to various governments and private companies turning a blind eye, or worse, helped the AI out when it was attacking their enemies. chitoryu12 posted:Yeah, you really can't take Ulysses at face value. Ulysses is a loon who views the world through an obsession with symbolism and the secret meaning that he sees in everything. The Courier has no loving clue who he is, but he's crafted his entire worldview and personality around finding a meaning in the Courier accidentally blowing up his town and creates an elaborate gauntlet to try and manipulate them into agreeing with him. Ulysses's entire life experience has been shaped by symbols. Before his tribe was assimilated their entire culture and history was expressed through the various symbols they placed on their hair braids. That's why he had a mental breakdown when the White Legs copied his braids. All he could see was the symbols that had been burned into his mind since childhood. Seeing all these patterns and meaning where there was none. That's part of why I like Ulysses as a character. His way of looking at the world is so alien that he can't function any other way.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:48
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SwitchbladeKult posted:Ulysses's entire life experience has been shaped by symbols. Before his tribe was assimilated their entire culture and history was expressed through the various symbols they placed on their hair braids. That's why he had a mental breakdown when the White Legs copied his braids. All he could see was the symbols that had been burned into his mind since childhood. Seeing all these patterns and meaning where there was none. That's part of why I like Ulysses as a character. His way of looking at the world is so alien that he can't function any other way. Ulysses is a great character once you stop assuming that Chris Avellone meant for him to be a genius who understands everything and is meant to make the player feel bad about stuff.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:53
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Ulysses is a great character if you assume he's batshit insane and there's a giant pile of courier corpses behind the launch site
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Jul 19, 2018 04:02
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RBA Starblade posted:The bullet didn't cause any memory loss except for anything regarding that specific town. I always took it more as the courier traveled to and from so many podunk settlements all across the wasteland (at least the length of California to Montana, if you assume Lady Killer is canon) that Hopeville was just such a completely random town that he didn't even really think about it or notice when it started to develop into a community. It would be like in Fallout 4 if some guy was watching the PC build one of those absurdly detailed settlement cities over the course of 100 hours and then when the PC fucks up and kills himself with his own shock trap or whatever the guy goes crazy and confronts the provisioner screaming "YOU DID THIS" because the provisioner was the one delivering all the adhesive.
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Jul 19, 2018 04:16
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Wasn't Ulysses also a courier at one point, too? Or at least a mercenary of some type? Or at the very least stalking us for a long time? I could've sworn you find a document in Primm that shows he was meant to carry the platinum chip but when he saw our name on the roster he backed out in order to ensure that we got the job instead. I don't know what they was meant to imply; if that means he knew we'd be betrayed and wanted us to step into the trap as payback or if he really bought into his whole predetermined fate nonsense or something else. At any rate it kinda also implies that he was responsible for setting up the whole game and setting things in motion. I don't think there is anything else in the game itself (outside of the DLC) that mentions or explains anything else about him. He just parachutes in and monologues at you while you slowly trudge in his direction for some reason. The only good part of that DLC was the elite riot armor, which was one of the strongest sets outside of actual power armor and came with some hefty skill and stat boosts.
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Jul 19, 2018 04:37
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Wasn't Ulysses also a courier at one point, too? Or at least a mercenary of some type? Or at the very least stalking us for a long time? Yeah, I think it's also mentioned that he was a member of the frumentarii before he was a courier
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Jul 19, 2018 04:58
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Johnson Nash, the head of the Mojave Express in Primm, says Ulysses saw your name next on the list and backed out. In the DLC he says he got the feeling the package was suspicious and left it for you so any weird poo poo that happened would end up on your head. You can ask him why he didn't just kill you, and he tells you Caesar has been infiltrating the West using couriers, so no Legion is to kill a courier.
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Jul 19, 2018 05:01
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Wasn't Ulysses also a courier at one point, too? Or at least a mercenary of some type? Or at the very least stalking us for a long time? Ulysses worked as a courier to spy on the NCR for Caesar. Caesar even had a rule you couldn't kill couriers because he liked sending Legionaries undercover as couriers so much he didn't want his men killing spies by mistake.
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Jul 19, 2018 05:04
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Wasn't Ulysses also a courier at one point, too? Or at least a mercenary of some type? Or at the very least stalking us for a long time? It's not a document; Johnson Nash tells you as much. Ulysses was Courier 5 (Johnson doesn't name him though) and he cancelled the job when he saw you were next on the list. "I hope a storm from the Divide skins him alive."
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Jul 19, 2018 05:38
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Kinda don't know why Nash was so pissed, I mean they had another courier on the list no problem. It seems like it was actually easier to use you because you were already in California, whereas Ulysses would have had to go from the Mojave into California to get the chip, then back into the Mojave to deliver it. The way things ended up going seems a lot better all round, logistically
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Jul 19, 2018 06:02
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ulysses is a poorly written and staged character that drones on about events absent in the narrative and player arc. there's nothing really wrong with a roger cross monologue during what was a pretty fun combat zone with project nevada, but background noise kinda sums the writing up.
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Jul 19, 2018 06:04
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