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C-Euro posted:I think when people say "there are no good counterspells in Modern" what they actually mean is "there are no counterspells in Modern that are good all of the time". I think Cryptic Command is the only unconditional counter that sees play in the format and that has a lot of utility that a normal counterspell wouldn't. Outside of that you have counters that are good in certain styles of deck, or when playing against certain decks, or are good at certain points in the game, but nothing that you can look at and say "you definitely want 4 of this card if you are running permission in blue" like you could with Counterspell back in the day or with Force of Will in Legacy right now. Remand maybe qualifies as that, if you don't consider returning the countered spell to their hand as a condition. Also remember when Remand was a $15 card? Even Remand isn't necessarily a four-of card in the decks that want it because so many of the threats in Modern cost 1 mana, and Remanding for negative tempo is a pretty underwhelming play. When you're Time Walking someone it's fantastic, but when you're sitting down across from Burn it's not much of a card. It also doesn't see much play in control shells - they're happier to go with a hard counter that trades a card for a card and run you out of resources, rather than just making you waste a turn. Part of the issue is that the most flexible counters in Modern are tempo or tax effects like Remand and Mana Leak, but the best removal spell to pair them with is Path to Exile, which feeds your opponent extra mana. Asking someone to pay an extra three mana isn't that demanding if you've already gone Path > Snap > Path and gifted them a couple of basics, which is why Mana Leak doesn't actually see much play in U/W/x shells. Counterspell would probably be quite good in Modern right now though. The format has slowed down a bit, Logic Knot is already being run as a poor man's UU counter, and Teferi is one hell of a buddy for them. PS. Another issue for countermagic in modern is that the most popular aggro deck is currently a Vial/Cavern tribal list.
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Jul 19, 2018 17:30
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Tron is a perfectly fine part of the metagame and its crushing advantage over the fair decks is what keeps the modern metagame moving. (fair deck gets good, tron beats it, linear combo deck arises to beat tron, fair decks come back with lock pieces, discard, and counterspells to pick apart the combo decks). I know people hate it but as of right now there is no legitimate reason that Tron should even be under consideration for a ban. The problem is KCI. No matter how much you want to argue that pulling tron lands off the top five of your deck is too good, the actual thing that is too good is KCI getting to consistently pull one of its 20+ combo pieces off the top of its deck and kill you with startling consistency and resiliency.
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Jul 19, 2018 18:09
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I think Tron is an incredibly boring, uninteresting, easy-to play deck that ends up being a way too large part of the meta because it's a relatively cheap entry option for the format. That said, yes, Ironworks combo is a much bigger problem right now.
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Jul 19, 2018 18:12
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I'll repeat myself. Ban the reserved list and modern. And Griselbrand. And Chalice of the Void.
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Jul 19, 2018 18:16
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BaronVonVaderham posted:I think Tron is an incredibly boring, uninteresting, easy-to play deck that ends up being a way too large part of the meta because it's a relatively cheap entry option for the format. Thats fine, there are plenty of decks that I don't like in modern either, but there are very few of them that I think deserve bans anymore.
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Jul 19, 2018 18:27
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Ironworks is fine when counterspells are good. Spell Queller absolutely eats KCI's lunch, play Spell Quellers
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Jul 19, 2018 18:31
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TheKingofSprings posted:Ironworks is fine when counterspells are good. SCG said that they are gonna run Bant spirits through a gauntlet of tier 1 modern decks on their vs series next week and i'm really interested to see how that goes. KCI is a problem but if it can be dealt with by the meta without any bannings that would be the best solution IMHO and bant spirits is probably one of the front runners to take it down.
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Jul 19, 2018 18:34
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AnEdgelord posted:SCG said that they are gonna run Bant spirits through a gauntlet of tier 1 modern decks on their vs series next week and i'm really interested to see how that goes. I am also interested to see how this works out. what is THE gauntlet of modern T1 decks right now? Because spirits is Very Favored against Jeskai, KCI, Affinity, and storm. Is pretty good against Mardu, is fine against Hollow one and burn. It does have trouble with humans though. Also tron is 50/50 TheKingofSprings posted:Ironworks is fine when counterspells are good. Bant spirits is SO good against KCI Mezzanon fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 18:38
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Mezzanon posted:I am also interested to see how this works out. what is THE gauntlet of modern T1 decks right now? Because spirits is Very Favored against Jeskai, KCI, Affinity, and storm. Is pretty good against Mardu, is fine against Hollow one and burn. It does have trouble with humans though. Humans, Tron, Jeskai, Mardu, Affinity, probably
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Jul 19, 2018 18:40
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TheKingofSprings posted:Humans, Tron, Jeskai, Mardu, Affinity, probably Humans: probably 40/60 (sometimes you just lose to T2 mantis rider) Tron: 50/50 (being on the play is huge, and don't extend into Ugin) you're gonna lose to some T3 tron's though (like every deck) Jeskai: 60/40 for spirits. countering lightning helix is big game for you. Mardu: 60/40 for spirits. play around Blood Moon Affinity: 70/30 for spirits. I have almost never lost to affinity as Bant Spirits. Of course sometimes they nut on the play with a T2 overseer and you don't have path but you're decently favored game one, and heavily favored for games 2 and 3.
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Jul 19, 2018 18:44
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TheKingofSprings posted:Humans, Tron, Jeskai, Mardu, Affinity, probably I'd replace Affinity with KCI at this point. Humans tests Bant in the same way that Affinity would and each deck represents a different style of top deck (Humans is the fast distruption deck, tron the big mana, jeskai the control, mardu the midrange and kci the engine combo). If they do a sixth deck I would want to see Hollow One as well since that represents the last pillar of the modern metagame (the fast graveyard deck)
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Jul 19, 2018 18:46
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Infect Tron Mardu Pyromancer KCI Hollow One Humans UW Control Thats what I'd consider the top of modern right at the moment.
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Jul 19, 2018 18:50
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jassi007 posted:Infect Infect: I haven't played a lot of infect, but it feels 50/50. I am also running blessed alliance in my board so what the gently caress do I know? KCI: Wildly favored. Hollow One: Game one is a crapshoot and this deck always has an element of randomness to it, but post board they absolutely just cannot beat a resolved worship unless they can pull a gotcha with collective brutality. UW Control: see Jeskai Control (but also watch out for terminus)
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Jul 19, 2018 19:01
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Just saw this http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37455_Understanding-Moderns-Top-Tier.html
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Jul 19, 2018 19:01
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Infect is very favorable unless they can resolve and protect a Blighted Agent.
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Jul 19, 2018 19:10
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Flying is a really good keyword, it turns out.
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Jul 19, 2018 19:31
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UW Control is just better than Jeskai Control in most situations. Bolt is mediocre if you can't present good threats and Terminus is amazing against everything. Emma's article is weird and doesn't mention a ton of decks as well as forcing some decks into weird categories. Also, I'm 100% convinced that Spirits is like 30% to beat UW Control.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:05
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Voyager I posted:Flying is a really good keyword, it turns out. It is, but I also won my Bant Spirits mirror a couple weeks ago when my opponent didn't realize that Geist of St Traft doesn't fly, and none of the lords in the deck give it flying.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:12
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Sampatrick posted:UW Control is just better than Jeskai Control in most situations. Bolt is mediocre if you can't present good threats and Terminus is amazing against everything. Emma's article is weird and doesn't mention a ton of decks as well as forcing some decks into weird categories. Jeskai Control is better than UW Control and its not even particularly close. Snapcaster+Burn spells gives the deck reach that control decks just don't have normally and the idea that bolt is ever mediocre in this format is a baffling position to hold. The efficacy of Terminus is massively over stated and in the matchups where you actually want it you can just run RIP in your sideboard (which you should be doing anyway to dunk on KCI). If we lived in a format with Ponder or Brainstorm then we could talk but until then Terminus just feels like an overcosted Supreme Verdict 90% of the time. It does dodge Spell Queller so maybe there will be some value if spirits take over the format but we're not there yet. Gaining access to Lightning Helix, Electrolyze and Wear/Tear out of the side is also not to be underestimated.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:35
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Sampatrick posted:Also, I'm 100% convinced that Spirits is like 30% to beat UW Control. The card Terminus is really loving good against Spirits and gets around a creature deck that is normally very resilient to board wipes, so there might be something there, but neither deck makes up enough of the metagame as it stands for that to be a hugely relevant statistic. Having Jace as the only way to get Terminus from your hand back onto your library is rough, but Opt still lets you cast it as a combat trick the way god intended. I haven't seen enough of UW play to know how consistently they're able to pull it off, though.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:44
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RIP is dogshit against KCI and Bolt does nothing against the 5/5s, 4/4s, Shadows, and Revelers that fill the format. If you just look at win percentage, UW Control is better. If you approach from a theoretical angle, UW Control is still just better. It's more resilient to Blood Moon, it can use Field of Ruin more effectively, the removal from UW lines up better against the most played creatures in the format, and Entreat is a superior closer compared to Secure the Wastes. Stop stressing so much and just play Terminus. It's way less awkward than you think and even if you hard cast it, it's still quite good. Per MTGGoldfish, UW Control is without a doubt a t1 or t1.5 deck. As more Jeskai players move over to the better deck, the metagame percentage will further increase and the deck will more firmly cement itself as a t1 deck. shades of blue fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 21:46
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That's a really weird article to link given that far and away the most common creatures are Snapcaster and Hierarch, both of which are astoundingly bad path targets. Snaps isn't normally worth removal anyways, but I don't think I can really overstate the importance of being a able to effectively kill a T1 mana dork vs just turning it into a land. In general Path kinda struggles as a defensive early play, because you don't really want an early creature to get in multiple attacks, giving your opponent an extra land on turn two is a great way to get crushed by a T3 Collected Company or some poo poo. This is kind of a strange comparison anyways because like the entire point of adding red mana is that you get to have both, not that you cut your Paths for Bolts.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:57
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Voyager I posted:That's a really weird article to link given that far and away the most common creatures are Snapcaster and Hierarch, both of which are astoundingly bad path targets. Snaps isn't normally worth removal anyways, but I don't think I can really overstate the importance of being a able to effectively kill a T1 mana dork vs just turning it into a land. In general Path kinda struggles as a defensive early play, because you don't really want an early creature to get in multiple attacks, giving your opponent an extra land on turn two is a great way to get crushed by a T3 Collected Company or some poo poo. In UW you play Condemn and Terminus in place of Bolt. This is better because those can actually kill Gurmag Angler, Hollow One, Bloodghast, Flamewake Phoenix, Death's Shadow, Thought Knot Seer, Tarmogoyf, etc, etc. The format is littered with threats that Bolt doesn't deal with and if you're not actually presenting a clock, then using Bolt as reach is really not great. If you don't trust my opinion on the subject, please trust noted decent Magic player Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa.
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Jul 19, 2018 22:03
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I've read the article, and you'll notice that it's essentially a meta call where he decides U/W is currently better positioned. Jeskai has better early interaction versus aggressive creature decks, while U/W has more sweepers as hard removal and better mana / access to Field of Ruin (they both run 4x Paths, and Jeskai actually has more countermagic). Condemn is also, uh, not great against mana dorks.
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Jul 19, 2018 22:18
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Voyager I posted:I've read the article, and you'll notice that it's essentially a meta call where he decides U/W is currently better positioned. Jeskai has better early interaction versus aggressive creature decks, while U/W has more sweepers as hard removal and better mana / access to Field of Ruin (they both run 4x Paths, and Jeskai actually has more countermagic). That's a misunderstanding of his argument. PV is saying that Jeskai is better than UW in a few matchups (Humans being the most prominent example) but UW still wins all the matchups that Jeskai wins (albeit to a lesser extent) and also is better against everything else.
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Jul 19, 2018 22:37
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1. RIP crushes KCI its the second best hate card against the archetype since their attempts to dig for an answer exile even more combo pieces. If you don't believe me then just read the article you already linkedPaulo Vitor Damo da Rosa posted:They’ve seen lists, but they don’t truly know how it operates. Several cards that people think will flat-out beat KCI just won’t, whereas the cards that do beat it (Stony Silence, Rest in Peace) have mostly been ignored. 2. You are already running Paths and Supreme verdicts so the idea that you should run Terminus to beat matchups you are already have answers for in your maindeck is highly suspect. Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa is also absolutely wrong about the Humans v Jeskai matchup. I've watched it multiple times on camera and on mtgo leagues from pros and it is way WAY closer than any jeskai player is ever willing to admit. Humans gains access to sideboard cards that give Jeskai (like Sin Collector and Dire Fleet Daredevil) fits in games 2 and 3 that hes just brushing off.
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Jul 19, 2018 22:38
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AnEdgelord posted:1. RIP crushes KCI its the second best hate card against the archetype since their attempts to dig for an answer exile even more combo pieces. If you don't believe me then just read the article you already linked What are you talking about? He's not doing some in-depth analysis of the Jeskai matchups, he's just using the numbers as an example. The whole thing is that relying on Bolt, Helix, and Electrolyze as your primary removal spells, as well as perhaps a few wrath effects, is really bad when those cards are insufficient to deal with (for example) the threats coming out of Hollow One. You need Path to answer every threat from Hollow One except for Flameblade Adept; that is not a reasonable position to be in. There are multiple other decks like that, from Hardened Scales Affinity to GDS to Abzan Traverse to Bogles. Not all of these decks are especially common but in the aggregate it's a whole lot more of the format than all the decks that are vulnerable to Bolt. There are a few matchups where Jeskai is better than UW but UW is much better than Jeskai at all the matchups where Jeskai struggles.
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Jul 19, 2018 22:54
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Sampatrick posted:What are you talking about? He's not doing some in-depth analysis of the Jeskai matchups, he's just using the numbers as an example. The whole thing is that relying on Bolt, Helix, and Electrolyze as your primary removal spells, as well as perhaps a few wrath effects, is really bad when those cards are insufficient to deal with (for example) the threats coming out of Hollow One. You need Path to answer every threat from Hollow One except for Flameblade Adept; that is not a reasonable position to be in. There are multiple other decks like that, from Hardened Scales Affinity to GDS to Abzan Traverse to Bogles. Not all of these decks are especially common but in the aggregate it's a whole lot more of the format than all the decks that are vulnerable to Bolt. There are a few matchups where Jeskai is better than UW but UW is much better than Jeskai at all the matchups where Jeskai struggles. Ok at this point you actually don't know what you are talking about. Not only does Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa directly call out Steel Overseer (i.e. one of Hardened Scales Affinities best cards) as something Jeskai is better against but you seem to think that GDS or Bogles is a bad matchup for Jeskai when the data you linked earlier shows GDS as a 50/50 and Bogles as a 54/46 in Jeskai's favor. Meanwhile the matchups that you think you're hedging yourself against are either complete wastes of time (Tron) or you already have cards to deal with them anyway (Wear/Tear, Celestial Purge and RIP against Hollow One)
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Jul 19, 2018 23:09
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You can respond to a miracle trigger right? I think I've seen matches in legacy where a player responded to a terminus miracle trigger by vial'ing in thalia. My new dream play against u/w control is to respond to the mid combat opt->terminus play by flashing in eidolon of rhetoric in response to the miracle trigger.
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Jul 19, 2018 23:16
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Mezzanon posted:You can respond to a miracle trigger right? I think I've seen matches in legacy where a player responded to a terminus miracle trigger by vial'ing in thalia. Yes. Also vialing in things like TKS or tidehollow sculler.
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Jul 19, 2018 23:46
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Yes. Also vialing in things like TKS or tidehollow sculler.
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Jul 19, 2018 23:52
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Yes. Also vialing in things like TKS or tidehollow sculler. Cool, I like hearing about a good corner play
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Jul 19, 2018 23:53
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standard.deviant posted:Or Vendilion Clique, or Stifle the trigger. or of course the most common counterplay, casting a Reset
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Jul 20, 2018 01:05
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Johnny Five-Jaces posted:or of course the most common counterplay, casting a Reset My man  
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Jul 20, 2018 01:20
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Johnny Five-Jaces posted:or of course the most common counterplay, casting a Reset This is best performed in response to a Baleful Strix trigger. Punish that trash the way god intended. Mezzanon posted:Cool, I like hearing about a good corner play Yep. For the sickest blowout you'll ever see look up Mark Koenig vs Joe Lossett from SCG. It was about 4 years ago, and it's a really good match to watch if you want to see how to play Death and Taxes. At one point Joe sets up a Terminus with 1 mana open and Bahra Vials in a Thalia in response to the trigger. There's other corner cases that people always miss, like Wasteland or Tec Edging a fetch in response to the draw. If your opponent only has 1 or 2 white mana and tries to draw a miracle, you can blow up the fetch and get 'em pretty good (assuming they don't fetch and still have it on top.) This does need to be done before they draw the card though. Just be aware that on MTGO if your opponent has 2 copies of the card in their hand, there will be no indication of which copy is the miracle and you will pick the wrong one 100% of the time and you'll go on to lose the match that you were 0% to lose and you'll never play a daily event again because it's such an irredeemably garbage program. Hypothetically, of course. standard.deviant posted:Or Vendilion Clique, or Stifle the trigger. Stifle the fetch they need to cast the spell imo.
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Jul 20, 2018 03:49
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suicidesteve posted:Stifle the fetch they need to cast the spell imo.
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Jul 20, 2018 04:20
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Remember when drawing for your turn was a trigger you could counter with stifle? Good times.
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Jul 20, 2018 04:24
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Oldsrocket_27 posted:Remember when drawing for your turn was a trigger you could counter with stifle? Good times. Ispchron Scepter + Stifle, gg. Just like Richard Garfield intended. standard.deviant posted:I tell people Lightning Bolt is my favorite card, but I think it’s actually Stifle. My all time favorite play was killing a particularly smug Miracles player with Goyfs after Stifle his Rest In Peace ETB. I've done this to D&T a few times. It's so good. My favorite experiment was playing RUG Delver with 1 Stifle and more disruption. Everyone still played around Stifle so much that I'm sure I won at least 1 game based off of it even though in 4 rounds I never drew that Stifle. And I had the added bonus of being able to play more Spell Snares and burn.
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Jul 20, 2018 04:57
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Going back to the control discussion earlier, here are some stats taken from the last few GPs
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Jul 20, 2018 05:09
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TheKingofSprings posted:Going back to the control discussion earlier, here are some stats taken from the last few GPs I posted this earlier to show that UW is probably better than Jeskai but people refuse to accept that Bolt might not be what you want in your Control deck in Modern
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Jul 20, 2018 05:37
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