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It is when you are supposedly playing space Raiden
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Jul 21, 2018 17:53
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Joe Slowboat posted:I too love for my games to assume I'm one of the nameless extras in scenes of mass slaughter rather than the main characters of the movies. It's Star Wars. Every Jedi that dies on screen has a name and a lengthy backstory in secondary media. But real talk, all autofire actually does in the system is make it harder to hit unless you have two advantage to spend for each additional attack you want to make, so it may be getting over-emphasized how useless lightsaber blocking blaster bolts actually is. (Also by default you have to roll against the hardest to hit person in any group you're firing at and -then- count your uncancelled advantage and successes before you spread fire to anyone else.) A Jedi focusing on blaster blocking talents can toss a ton of extra black dice at people targeting them, meaning they're way less likely to have the advantage to spare to activate autofire. unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jul 21, 2018 |
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Jul 21, 2018 18:07
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unseenlibrarian posted:A Jedi focusing on blaster blocking talents can toss a ton of extra black dice at people targeting them, meaning they're way less likely to have the advantage to spare to activate autofire. Thing is, that’s only a chance to survive. Whereas if the same Jedi tossed their sabre in the trash and got an autofire weapon themselves, for the same investment they’d have a similar position and the chance would be to kill.
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Jul 21, 2018 18:40
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Yeah, but since the conversation was about whether Jedi could block autofire or not, hey, it turns out they can and saying that lightsabers are useless against it is actually incorrect?
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Jul 21, 2018 19:10
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So unless you have training and a connection with your lightsaber, you are better off with a good blaster at your side? Seems correct to me.
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Jul 21, 2018 19:46
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unseenlibrarian posted:Yeah, but since the conversation was about whether Jedi could block autofire or not, hey, it turns out they can and saying that lightsabers are useless against it is actually incorrect? "Useless" of course means in the context of winning the fight, not merely "having some effect". That's the problem - ultimately, Jedi brings swords to gunfights. Unless they are so amazingly good at deflecting that there is no gunfight - as with all of the protagonist level Jedi in the Star Wars movies (who also have to have authorial fiat on their side, like Darth Vader getting to fight in a corridor in Rogue One), they're still onto a loser long term. Yes, you can deflect some autofire, but what do you do now? You've lost Stress to be no closer to winning; the enemy still has their gun and possibly range and positional advantage; there will be another volley next round, and it only takes one bad roll to drop you. You can get around this of course, with reflection as well as deflection and/or remote controlling their saber, but it's the D&D monk problem: you're spending a ton of points on those things when there's no reason you couldn't just pick up a blaster. (Let's also not forget, by the way, that after digging up our old FaD character sheets, it turns out Jedi are especially good to use autofire weapons because they can use Quick Strike (which gives advantage to "combat rolls", and shooting is a combat roll) and Enhance to increase their shooting ability.)
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Jul 21, 2018 19:49
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FFG Star Wars is great and honestly pretty drat well balanced across the board. There are a few combos that are overpowered (autofire cost reduced to 1 is the big one for combat), but not whole swaths or categories of things. Jedi are well balanced because, to be frank, they actually are just written up like any other class, with strengths and weaknesses. They have access to force talents, but those still cost xp, and their talent trees tend to be more specialized then the non-jedi. In other words, you can absolutely have characters from all three book lines together in a party without issue. Or hell, multiclass between them. It's all good. EDIT: Stop obsessing over autofire, you weirdos. Autofire is fine unless they reduce it's cost to 1, so just go "don't do that." Good lord.
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Jul 21, 2018 19:54
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Honestly the most dangerous characters I've seen in EOTE have all been brawn-focused wookies with vibro-axes, so the idea that melee is weak is just weird.
unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jul 21, 2018 |
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Jul 21, 2018 19:58
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Honestly I think the biggest problem with combat in the FFG SW games is just encounter design itself. There basically isn't any.
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Jul 21, 2018 21:30
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The main issue I've had with FFG Star Wars is that none of the games seems like a good buy-in point for me. Edge of the Empire loses me on page 1 with "this game is about the dark and gritty side of the Star Wars universe" which, congrats you've instantly misunderstood the source material. Age of Rebellion has kind of a military sf focus which didn't grab me, and Force and Destiny has the weird "Force trainees vs Dark Side agents" thing which they kinda had to make up entirely. Like, Star Wars isn't military sci-fi, it's not gritty smuggler stories, it's not even just the Force- it's something that exists at the nexus of all that. It's Flash Gordon serials with better effects. The whole focused game approach just does not work for me. I picked up the Force Awakens starter box and it's kinda nifty but there's just nowhere to go with that.
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Jul 21, 2018 21:43
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Maxwell Lord posted:The main issue I've had with FFG Star Wars is that none of the games seems like a good buy-in point for me. Edge of the Empire loses me on page 1 with "this game is about the dark and gritty side of the Star Wars universe" which, congrats you've instantly misunderstood the source material. Age of Rebellion has kind of a military sf focus which didn't grab me, and Force and Destiny has the weird "Force trainees vs Dark Side agents" thing which they kinda had to make up entirely. Like, Star Wars isn't military sci-fi, it's not gritty smuggler stories, it's not even just the Force- it's something that exists at the nexus of all that. It's Flash Gordon serials with better effects. The whole focused game approach just does not work for me. You're being incredible weird. First book is first movie, second book is second movie, third book is third movie.
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Jul 21, 2018 21:49
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ProfessorCirno posted:You're being incredible weird. First book is first movie, second book is second movie, third book is third movie. what? I can't think of an even semi-reasonable gloss of the plots of the movies under which this makes sense
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Jul 21, 2018 21:54
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Jedi are weak against flame throwers.
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Jul 21, 2018 22:16
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ProfessorCirno posted:You're being incredible weird. First book is first movie, second book is second movie, third book is third movie. Only extremely incredibly vaguely, lol.
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Jul 21, 2018 22:25
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To me, pretty much every depiction of Jedi that focuses on their powers as special abilities rather than wu wei has already missed the boat, so I don't have a dog in that particular fight. But the basic idea of playing the actual heroes of a Star Wars movie seems apropos, and the argument that guns should be better than swords is silly in what is basically a samurai movie with cowboys in space. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jul 21, 2018 |
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Jul 21, 2018 22:43
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Fighting Darth Vader= you lose is so stupid. Luke Skywalker starts out as the archetypal nobody hick kid and he fights Vader twice, once where Vader humors him a bit and a second time where he beats him despite spending half the fight trying not to fight. It's why as much as I liked D6 Star Wars back in the day, I always hated the statups of the main characters. They had Luke, as of the end of New Hope, with like 50D of skill points whereas a starting character gets 7D. Advancement wasn't fast either. Star Wars, especially the original, is full of incompetent smugglers, youthful hick pilots, old men and physically disabled space wizards, and they all get treated like they are gods in these games, untouchable by mere player characters. Cthulhu they ain't, Darth Vader shouldn't just be able to scoop up 1d6 adventurers per turn.
remusclaw fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jul 21, 2018 |
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Jul 21, 2018 23:25
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LongDarkNight posted:Jedi are weak against flame throwers. In fairness, most people are.
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Jul 22, 2018 00:07
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ProfessorCirno posted:You're being incredible weird. First book is first movie, second book is second movie, third book is third movie. if you cut out everything except the part on tatooine where they go to a bar, eote matches the first film
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Jul 22, 2018 00:10
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remusclaw posted:Fighting Darth Vader= you lose is so stupid. Luke Skywalker starts out as the archetypal nobody hick kid and he fights Vader twice, once where Vader humors him a bit and a second time where he beats him despite spending half the fight trying not to fight. It's why as much as I liked D6 Star Wars back in the day, I always hated the statups of the main characters. They had Luke, as of the end of New Hope, with like 50D of skill points whereas a starting character gets 7D. Advancement wasn't fast either. Star Wars, especially the original, is full of incompetent smugglers, youthful hick pilots, old men and physically disabled space wizards, and they all get treated like they are gods in these games, untouchable by mere player characters. Cthulhu they ain't, Darth Vader shouldn't just be able to scoop up 1d6 adventurers per turn. Ran into a similar issue with the d6 Hercules and Xena games. I mean, on the one hand you're talking about a literal demigod with Hercules, so that's at least somewhat understandable. But Joxer-the-loving-mighty had higher skills than a starting character could manage. JOXER.
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Jul 22, 2018 00:28
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Wrestlepig posted:if you cut out everything except the part on tatooine where they go to a bar, eote matches the first film
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Jul 22, 2018 00:31
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ProfessorCirno posted:You're being incredible weird. First book is first movie, second book is second movie, third book is third movie. First movie is a fairy tale, nothing "dark and gritty" about it. Second has lots of military type stuff in the first act, but then it's all Luke learning mystic philosophy and Han and co. running from the cops. Third starts with a jailbreak, then blends Luke's Jedi story with big rear end space and ground battles.
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Jul 22, 2018 01:21
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It's probably better to say that it represents the original cast more than it represents the movies. Edge of the Empire is "A game about Han", Age of Rebellion is "Leia: The game" and Force and Destiny is Luke. And different people have different favorite characters.
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Jul 22, 2018 04:27
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I've run star wars in a bunch of systems, mostly homebrew, and I basically strike for one of two "modes": 1. Knights of the Old Republic mode, where it's assumed at least one or two of the party will be big flashy jedi with lightsaber styles and crazy force powers and the rest of the group are power levelled to that (mandalorian warriors with cutting edge suits and guns, spymasters commanding a bevvy of Bothans, that kind of thing). It's the dumb high powered explosions and spaceships stuff that isn't actually very Star Wars as per the original trilogy, but seems to be what a lot of folks think of when they're wanting to play a star wars RPG. It's high powered characters driving big narratives. 2. The Original Trilogy mode, where everyone is pulp heroes, and if there's a Jedi it's one of the party at most, and they're very much in the old Obi Wan or trainee Luke mold - telekinesis, some minor telepathy, mostly just a sense of the world around them, extra sensory stuff and intuition. The Jedi is powet levelled to everyone else, who are mostly unlikely heroes with wit and a blaster getting on with derring do. It's low powered characters, dragged into and surviving big narratives. The thing that I struggle with the FFG games is that they don't do either of these well.
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Jul 22, 2018 10:44
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fool_of_sound posted:He's right that the talents are underwhelming, overly limited, and attached to pointlessly convoluted trees. He's extremely right that the combat is rocket tag. He's right that the Advantage/Threat results don't reliably have multiple good suggestion on how to interpret them. The dice thing is whatever. I didn't answer this cause i don't want to spike down an argument but I guess we are doing this anyway. The entire loving point of the talent tree to drip feed you out abilities that encourage more of a rounded character than a single skillset. Are the all successful? No definitely but they pretty consistent get better as they go on and end but improving with their source books and its why they are talked up. His complaints weren't the problems of the game, there are absolutely problems of the game, which I pointed out but you ignored. Combat is designed to run like the movies, you never want to get into a pitched battle slug match unless its a lightsaber fight. Go watch the original trilogy, this happens once and it results in Leia and R2 being taken out, 2/5 characters down and they're saved by chewie going off doing something else. Every battle in star wars is a run and gun or have some other objective the players are stalling for. What can happen is character dropping pretty easy but also being incredibly difficult to kill outright. A single turn in combat is supposed to take roughly a minute of time and everyone has crazy high move distances with the range band system, all to encourage this retreat or go for the objective behaviour. Just like the movies, players should never be getting into a shooting match unless they way outclass their opponents. The books have lots of good options for spending your dice results and on top of that its a collabative effort from the whole table to figure out what happened in the scene. The dice are an improv prompt that give you set of constraints to work out. Take the very specific skill of Astrogation "Advantage rolled as part of an Astrogation check are most commonly used to reduce the travel time. On extended journeys, they might be used to identify convenient stopovers en route, where the vessel can resupply or conduct additional business to help defray the overall cost of the trip". Those seem like really good suggestions to me, make the thing go quicker, find a hidden station/space ship/meet someone on the way there/save money. The character creation stuff is genuinely badly designed, if they wanted to force people into stats, they should just be doing that. The starting equipment stuff though is entirely driven by the system; in Edge of the Empire if you want to have anything you need to take Obligation, that is the entire loving point of that mechanic, you might not enjoy that but the whole reason that subsystem exists is to give your star wars hook, Luke loses his aunt and uncle, Han owes Jabba, Lando cut a deal with Vader. You choose to only have the starting credits if you want but this is a giant motivation for you to have a noose your get to deal with later. In Age of Rebellion you've got a Duty system thats about your rank in the Rebellion/other organisation because again its the Leia game, you're making sacrifices and trade offs because of the group you have joined. Force and Destiny instead has the morality system which is kind of a piece of poo poo. This confuses the poo poo outta me because there are lots of genuine problems with the system, I think there are too many skills, especially the knowledge ones can be all grouped up. Spaceship combat is unnecessarily complicated and needs a lot of support to work out for example. Many of the basic talent trees are absolutely poo poo house, its why Fly Casual is almost mandatory because the basic smuggler trees don't match a lot of ideas of a smooth talking smuggler. They let you play Han Solo the constant gently caress up but not Lando. I really hate the gear porn and the crafting poo poo, outside of making your lightsaber its incredibly unnecessary and just results in huge mechanic issues. hyphz posted:Except we found it didn't at all, because you still know that it is a dice and you could have rolled all light side results - so having to take risks involving turning to the dark side is only the result of bad luck. Okay you're both confusing two mechanics and fundamental not understanding how the dice work. First morality system in force and destiny (which again is kind of poo poo) is what you are talking about. The dice don't have you fall to the dark just by rolling it, its whether you choose to have the power succeed even though you rolled dark side pips. You are choosing to succeed at the roll by embracing the dark side, it means that when a jedi tries to use many power, as long as its not against a nemesis or rival, they will not have to make a skill check or anything. Your pass/fail is on that dice but the mechanic means that you always succeed, sometimes its just with a price attached. You know, fail forward. To also point out if you aren't playing Force and Destiny or are not using the Morality system on this character, the cost is just strain and flipping a destiny point. hyphz posted:The problem with Jedi (or fledgling Jedi, since Force and Destiny is about personal discovery of the Force) is that they’ll have different goals to everyone else, and that lightsabers are stupidly powerful in melee but (like everything else) nearly useless against autofire. The gently caress are you talking about? Lightsabers, to be useful against ranged attacks, need the character to have the reflect talent. It lets you trade strain to reduce damage from ranged attacks, you can get more ranks to get more damage reduce on your strain spend. What makes auto-fire dangerous is you can potentially get multiple hits so the jedi needs to spend more strain to block more damage. Auto-fire is useful but as pointed out, the specific build that makes it crazy is being able to turn the auto-fire trigger to 1 advantage instead of 2. Otherwise at most a auto-fire is hitting twice. So lets figure out the math on it, most characters can reliably get 4 Soak from their 2 brawn + 2 armour. The lowest rank of reflect lets you spend 3 strain to reduce 3 damage but you're fighting enemies who are reliably getting enough advantage to get 2 hits, then the player probably has at least 2 ranks in reflect (meaning 3 strain for 4 damage reduction). The Heavy blaster rifle, the weapon infamous for its auto-fire does 10 damage + successes (we'll say 11 damage for clarity). So shooting at our jedi, each hit that they get is only doing 3 damage. A stormtrooper pulls up this light machine gun and dumps fire at a jedi for a minute straight and he'll do what, 6 damage assuming he gets a hit (which is now harder since hes auto-firing) and gets 2 hits? Seems like the lightsaber was real good against the auto-fire. Maxwell Lord posted:First movie is a fairy tale, nothing "dark and gritty" about it. Second has lots of military type stuff in the first act, but then it's all Luke learning mystic philosophy and Han and co. running from the cops. Third starts with a jailbreak, then blends Luke's Jedi story with big rear end space and ground battles. Yeah they're all pulpy action adventure movies but: 1st movie is about a farmboy from the rear end end of nowhere teaming up with a wanted fugitive wizard who was hiding out here and smuggler for a crime lord. He joins up after seeing his aunt and uncle's charred corpses. This then leads to an accidental rescue from a super weapon where his wizard mentor dies resulting in a small hand of disorganised and desperate pilots lead an attack on this super weapon. His smuggler friend abandons him and one by one all the pilots die until its just our farmboy left who is saved at the last minute by his ghost wizard and the smuggler flying into battle in his piece of junk spaceship. The movie is about a bunch of ne'er-do-wells and lowlifes saving the galaxy, thats 100% Edge of the Empire. kingcom fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 16:01
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Lupercalcalcal posted:I've run star wars in a bunch of systems, mostly homebrew, and I basically strike for one of two "modes": So, FFG explicitly does the second. Jedi outside of the max rating on the 'Move' power are completely in line with others and are often overshadowed by non-force users if the Jedi player is purely using Force and Destiny. Its very difficult to kill anyone, character can go down but its very much a case of 'this character is down, player pick them up and they shake their head and are good to go next scene'. The thing that happens in the movies and tv shows. The way the career system and jedi progression in general works is entirely meant to follow the Luke Skywalker path. Luke for example would start as an Career Ace - Specialization Pilot, then get himself the Force Sensitive Emergent universal specialization and then in the final movie he'd pick up Career Sentinel - Specialization Shien Expert. The line 100% supports that low powered character dragged into big narratives. It takes them from very low, poorly equipped characters usually hung with a obligation pulling them down to be big deal heroes with really game changing Signature Abilities that let them dramatically shake up the narrative. kingcom fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 16:03
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You don't actually have to be incredibly aggro about your mediocre system, guy.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:09
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fool_of_sound posted:You don't actually have to be incredibly aggro about your mediocre system, guy. I don't like it when people sideline or alter facts to drop their hot and poorly thought out opinions and then try to pull off the incredibly smug, it's okay to like bad system poo poo. Its extra cool when someone uses that quote on a post where the person they are quote says there are many problems with the system.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:12
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kingcom posted:I don't like it when people sideline or alter facts to drop their hot and poorly thought out opinions and then try to pull off the incredibly smug, it's okay to like bad system poo poo. Have you considered that the FFG rpgs were insanely popular for multiple years on these forums, and a ton of goons have extensive experience with them that they're pulling their opinions from? I personally played in four games, two of which were fairly lengthy, and everything I said is a problem I personally encountered. People aren't making poo poo up to poo poo on your personal favorite system.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:14
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kingcom posted:I didn't answer this cause i don't want to spike down an argument but I guess we are doing this anyway. k
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Jul 22, 2018 16:18
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fool_of_sound posted:You don't actually have to be incredibly aggro about your mediocre system, guy. could you quit it with the tone policing
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Jul 22, 2018 16:21
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Lupercalcalcal posted:1. Knights of the Old Republic mode, where it's assumed at least one or two of the party will be big flashy jedi with lightsaber styles and crazy force powers and the rest of the group are power levelled to that (mandalorian warriors with cutting edge suits and guns, spymasters commanding a bevvy of Bothans, that kind of thing). It's the dumb high powered explosions and spaceships stuff that isn't actually very Star Wars as per the original trilogy, but seems to be what a lot of folks think of when they're wanting to play a star wars RPG. It's high powered characters driving big narratives. I'm running my first session of a Star Wars game tonight using 4e D&D with this exact premise and it's going to be amazing. Everything is just massively reskinned along with extensive narrative permissions (Characters can just Use the Force and roll whatever makes sense, you shoot a door panel during a tense moment and it'll do whatever is most beneficial to you at that time, etc).
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Jul 22, 2018 16:34
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fool_of_sound posted:Have you considered that the FFG rpgs were insanely popular for multiple years on these forums, and a ton of goons have extensive experience with them that they're pulling their opinions from? I personally played in four games, two of which were fairly lengthy, and everything I said is a problem I personally encountered. People aren't making poo poo up to poo poo on your personal favorite system. So to be clear the narrative mechanic of advantage/disadvantage is something you think is awful or what? Cause thats the thing that got me posting originally. Well that and someone saying it was the worst star wars RPG when loving d20 star wars exists lol.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:35
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Feel like in a Star Wars system, Jedi would be completely different depending on the era. Reminds me of how Star Wars Galaxies screwed up. OT-era, there's no organised Jedi structure anymore and more force-sensitives are self-taught, more along the lines of early Luke (who uses a blaster as much as a saber) or the blind guy from Force Awakens.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:39
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gradenko_2000 posted:could you quit it with the tone policing This is a conversation about a mediocre elfgame system, not an actual serious social issue. Don't casually throw around "don't tone police!!!" It's not an argument that has any truck when people are being asked to be marginally less aggressive about a tabletop game they like. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 16:40
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Feel like in a Star Wars system, Jedi would be completely different depending on the era. Reminds me of how Star Wars Galaxies screwed up. OT-era, there's no organised Jedi structure anymore and more force-sensitives are self-taught, more along the lines of early Luke (who uses a blaster as much as a saber) or the blind guy from Force Awakens. Yeah thats generally the best way to do it, set if you want you space magic to be special and unique or common place then work stuff around that.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:41
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kingcom posted:So to be clear the narrative mechanic of advantage/disadvantage is something you think is awful or what? Cause thats the thing that got me posting originally. Well that and someone saying it was the worst star wars RPG when loving d20 star wars exists lol. I think the narrative mechanic of advantage/disadvantage is something that's in theory sound but implemented in a way that barely works and with zero thought put into it, by designers who didn't understand how success at a cost actually works in games built around that kind of mechanic, and that it inherently does not work well with a game that has as many boring fiddly bits as FFG SW does. Also, fair enough, I'll grant you that d20 SW is marginally worse than FFG SW.  kingcom posted:His complaints weren't the problems of the game, there are absolutely problems of the game, which I pointed out but you ignored. That said, gently caress off with this. The problems I pointed out are problems with the game, just because you don't recognise them as such and disagree that they're problems doesn't make them ~not problems~. 
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 16:44
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gradenko_2000 posted:could you quit it with the tone policing Ok: gently caress off. kingcom posted:So to be clear the narrative mechanic of advantage/disadvantage is something you think is awful or what? Cause thats the thing that got me posting originally. Well that and someone saying it was the worst star wars RPG when loving d20 star wars exists lol. I don't think it's awful. I found that there were not enough suggestions for advantage/threat written into the skill descriptions. A ton of them are 'well you get a penalty to your next roll' which is ok I guess, but also really boring. I like the idea of qualified success, but it doesn't feel like they put in the effort compared to say, most PbtA games.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:44
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kingcom posted:So, FFG explicitly does the second. Jedi outside of the max rating on the 'Move' power are completely in line with others and are often overshadowed by non-force users if the Jedi player is purely using Force and Destiny. Its very difficult to kill anyone, character can go down but its very much a case of 'this character is down, player pick them up and they shake their head and are good to go next scene'. The thing that happens in the movies and tv shows. The way the career system and jedi progression in general works is entirely meant to follow the Luke Skywalker path. Luke for example would start as an Career Ace - Specialization Pilot, then get himself the Force Sensitive Emergent universal specialization and then in the final movie he'd pick up Career Sentinel - Specialization Shien Expert. The line 100% supports that low powered character dragged into big narratives. It takes them from very low, poorly equipped characters usually hung with a obligation pulling them down to be big deal heroes with really game changing Signature Abilities that let them dramatically shake up the narrative.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:13
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Hey kingcom, I appreciated your breakdown of FFG Star Wars and your take on its strengths and weaknesses. Just wanted to mention that given how much negativity it seems to have garnered you.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:29
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-Fish- posted:I'm running my first session of a Star Wars game tonight using 4e D&D with this exact premise and it's going to be amazing. Everything is just massively reskinned along with extensive narrative permissions (Characters can just Use the Force and roll whatever makes sense, you shoot a door panel during a tense moment and it'll do whatever is most beneficial to you at that time, etc). This guy gets it. This guy is the only one of you I want to play a Star Wars game with right now. (Also Strike SW guys from earlier)
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Jul 22, 2018 18:00
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