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The Sweden analogy is flawed. If the group is in the minority they won't readily be in a position to push for politicians to implement the change. And if they're in the majority why shouldn't their voice be heard? Surely weapons ownership isn't an inherent civil right.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:10
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zapplez posted:
i respect the gunfucker's solution to being shown to be wrong is to just repeat the allegation shown to be wrong, louder, while sticking fingers in his ears where reality intersects with the fantasy, reality must be disregarded
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Jul 22, 2018 17:12
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Can we get a name of a specific Swedish gun banning politician so we can look up their positions, because Dianne Feinstein was already floated as an American politician who wants to ban all guns despite the clip of her saying so being deliberately edited to remove the context showing the opposite. As well, op-eds where she specifically endorses the legality of firearms ownership for hunting or self-defense were completely ignored. So I suspect the claims about Swedish gungrabbers are likely to be similarly stupid/dishonest.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:15
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VitalSigns posted:If you can't tell the difference between prominent gun control advocates in real life and shitposts on a dead hetero comedy forum maybe you need to step away from the computer for a while. I think you missing the real issue, which is that the messaging of gun control advocates has been uncoordinated and reactive. In large part this is because it has been driven by grass-roots activists on social media. A more relevant example would be the calls for assault style weapons bans after the Parkland shooting. What people say on this forum might not be very influential, but you hear much the same thing on twitter and facebook. While I sympathize with the outrage, picking fights over assault style weapons is a poor tactical decision. Firstly because these weapons are involved in only a small proportion of the homicides and suicides we want to prevent, and therefore even a complete ban would have only a small effect on health, and secondly because I believe it is a comparably difficult battle to win politically, compared to other kinds of policies activists could fight for instead. I think advocates should avoid saying "ban" at all. We're not trying to punish anyone, or take anyones property. We just want to make everyone safer, and reduce deaths. We should avoid any argument at all about rights. We can improve public safety by regulating sales to criminals, and cracking down on grey market sales. Fighting over the toys of rich hobbyists is a waste of effort. Flowers For Algeria posted:I would like to thank you for quoting my extremely good post. We need to spread the message and thanks for doing your part. Unfortunately the public debate over this issue is so warped in my country that I have no choice but to tailor my statements to paranoiacs like zapplez who is right now going off about how the authoritarians are plotting to take are guns just before they open up the gulag. It's bizarre but it's just the circumstance we have to live with. Therefore I think we need to assuage some of their fears, and focus not on banning this or that doodad or class of gun, but on improving public safety by better regulating the way people keep and buy their weapons.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:31
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My original statement was the following; "She may or may not have been talking about assault weapons but to gun owners, this is all the proof needed that gun control advocates want all the guns banned". I can agree that there is no mainstream politician that calls for an outright ban on all types on firearms in the US but I'm no US citizen So I shouldn't really be talking about the US in the first place. As for Sweden, one of the biggest proponent of gun bans is Dan Elliasson, current chief of the Civil Contingencies Agency, former National Police Commissioner. He has stated that the access to gun, especially automatics, must be curtailed to the greatest extent possible. If that can be interpreted as a wish to ban all guns or not is up for interpretation.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:37
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I don't think you'll be able to assuage their fears. The gun industry is relentlessly opposed to all gun safety (because every gun not sold to a Nikolas Cruz is lost profits) and they have a massive propaganda machine dedicated to lying to crazy people just like zapplez and Noshtane. Look at the Feinstein clip from earlier, deliberately clipped and edited to make it sound like she was advocating a total gun ban, even though she's written about supporting firearms ownership for hunting and self-defense. If you think you can spend an entire life in public advocacy, and never once say or write anything that could sound like a gun ban if part of your statement is deleted and put into a propaganda video claiming you said the opposite, then you're ridiculously optimistic. And even if you could, you're never going to Jedi mind-meld everyone who agrees with you into perfect speech patterns that can never be edited or taken out of context to sound bad, and even if you could you could never Jedi mind-meld everyone like Flowers For Algeria in the world to never say "ban all guns" and be used as an example by the NRA, and even if you could the NRA would just lie about it. This is like saying "well I support abortion rights, but the pro-choice side really fucks up when they talk about selling fetus organs for profit, we'll never convince anyone now". If you want to crusade for precision of language or whatever, you do you, but the idea that you'll find a magical sequence of words that will convince gun owners not to fear despite relentless industry propaganda frightening them to pieces is...well silly imho VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 17:40
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Noshtane posted:If that can be interpreted as a wish to ban all guns or not is up for interpretation. sorry, just kind of marveling at this sentence you can see the gunfucker's sense of shame and awareness of the world around them trying to rein in their idiot paranoia. it knows, on some level, that the thing it is trying to say exists and should be feared is a figment of the imagination, something invented for the sake of having something to despise Those Fuckers, Who Might Harm Our Beautiful Guns over. but the fear is a demanding god, and so instead of "nobody has said that, but I am terrified that someday, someone might" we get that magnificent bit of wordplay "if this person's words can be interpreted to justify my nightmares, is something that it is impossible to know one way or the other." there is no way to know reality. so let's just retreat further back into the gunfucker fantasy. where it is safe, and warm, and we don't have to worry about a world that persists in irritatingly telling me things like "your fantasies are stupid and insane."
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Jul 22, 2018 17:55
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Noshtane posted:
So all you have is a paraphrase from this guy (who seems to be most famous as a bogeyman for Swedish Nazis because he doesn't agree all immigrants are inherently criminal), you're not sure what exactly your paraphrase meant or what he's proposing or would support, but just like with DiFi you jumped to the most paranoid conclusion possible without bothering to look into anything else he may have said to clarify his position. Hmm yes very convincing, I'm digging my civil war bunker now! I'm not Swedish so I can't do your research for you this time, maybe another Swedish-speaking goon can help you out here.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:02
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VitalSigns posted:If you want to crusade for precision of language or whatever, you do you, but the idea that you'll find a magical sequence of words that will convince gun owners not to fear despite relentless industry propaganda frightening them to pieces is...well silly imho Mostly I'm just frustrated because I feel gun safety advocates are poorly organized, which leads to ineffective activism. I think however you are under-estimating the significance of of these kinds of tactical political decisions. Yeah no obviously we're never going to win over the survivalist in bunker with his own personal arsenal. They aren't the target. The people you can win are their spouses, who would really feel rather better about little Timmy getting his first .22 if he took a six hour safety course first. Or the son of a hunter who maybe doesn't own his own gun, but still relates to the culture. It's not jsut about crafting more precise language, its about framing the narrative in a way that people can trust our intentions. The campaign to legalize gay marriage is a great example of accomplishing policy goals by reframing the narratives. First marriage equality was obviously about a lot more than just marriage, marriage was a stand in for enshrining institutional and social acceptance of homosexual identity. Trying to convince people that they need to accept homo-sex is a bad narrative. Convincing them to support marriage equality, that's much harder to argue against.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:03
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Here Squalid, let me Noshtane-ize/zapplez-ize your post:Squalid posted:We just want to make everyone safer, and reduce deaths. We should avoid any argument at all about rights. We can improve public safety by regulating sales to criminals, and cracking down on grey market sales. What does Squalid mean by reducing deaths, it could mean anything. Whether it means banning all guns or not is up to interpretation, of course a gun banner would think that banning all guns would make everyone safer and reduce deaths! He doesn't want to talk about rights! He wants to crack down on criminals, but of course a gun banner wants to turn all law-abiding gun owners into criminals. That's what Stalin said too, he was only going after criminals but who defines what is criminal, Big Government that's who!
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Jul 22, 2018 18:06
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:sorry, just kind of marveling at this sentence Are you feeling okay? Do you need to lie down? But really, you don't see how the police commissioner saying that the access to guns must be curtailed as far as possible, not illegal guns, all guns, could be interpreted as the wish to end gun ownership? This in Sweden where no mass shooting has occurred for over 20 years and that one that happened was done by a military officer using a stolen gun from his barrack. It should be noted that during his time as national police commissioner his appointed chief in the police responsible for gun issues enacted a policy where the police would actively defy the law to deny gun licenses.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:08
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VitalSigns posted:So all you have is a paraphrase from this guy (who seems to be most famous as a bogeyman for Swedish Nazis because he doesn't agree all immigrants are inherently criminal), you're not sure what exactly your paraphrase meant or what he's proposing or would support, but just like with DiFi you jumped to the most paranoid conclusion possible without bothering to look into anything else he may have said to clarify his position. Hmm yes very convincing, I'm digging my civil war bunker now! We do have his legacy as the police commissioner and how he went above and beyond what the EU dictated regarding gun laws. We also have the promemoria he wrote to MSB. And again, not a single life in the last 50 years would be saved by the laws he wanted to enact. But okay, what is your take on what he meant by his statements and actions?
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Jul 22, 2018 18:12
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It's still a stretch to say that because one guy with power wants to ban all guns, all proponents of gun control will push for banning all guns. I suppose you could mean that any remaining proponents for fun control would want to ban all guns, but that portion of the population wont necessarily have the power to implement their desired policy.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:12
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Squalid posted:Because you can just look at what people say in a thread like this, they really do want to take all the guns. their fault. if they won't give an inch we'll take a mile.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:14
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Noshtane posted:Are you feeling okay? Do you need to lie down? he never said the thing you're afraid he might one day say. but you feel like, maybe, possibly, it's open to interpretation, if you read between the lines, and the spirit moves you, that he might think that way. that you are terrified of the boogeyman is not in question, friend. that you throw a tantrum when it is demonstrated he is not real, and you are working yourself into a paranoid frenzy over nothing, is remarkably demonstrative of the actual problem here.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:23
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Noshtane posted:We do have his legacy as the police commissioner and how he went above and beyond what the EU dictated regarding gun laws. We also have the promemoria he wrote to MSB. I don't have one, all you've given me is a paraphrase whereof even you say you're not sure of the meaning, and claimed he went above and beyond what the EU (which does not ban all guns) dictates, but a ton of member countries have more gun laws than the EU minimum so that's meaningless. How am I supposed to know what this guy thinks, I guess like you I should just project my worst nightmares onto him and claim he supports whatever my narrative requires him to support? Idk man I don't speak Swedish so I can't look up his other statements and writings easily, and you couldn't figure out what DiFi was saying in a simple speech, so I'm just going to wait and see if another Swede who is better informed can tell you what this dude has actually proposed.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:27
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Squalid if you were a senator and these were campaign speeches instead of posts, the NRA would clip "We should avoid any argument at all about rights", set it to scary music, and put it right after DiFi's "turn them in Mr and Mrs America" clip and run those ads until the end of time about how you want to take away all our constitutional rights.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:29
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Which is why us gun control proponents should be utterly shameless and uncompromising (especially not wrt the language we use), and we should devote a lot of money to huge propaganda campaigns and Congressperson-buying.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:45
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Groovelord Neato posted:their fault. More likely you won't take anything at all.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:55
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Squalid posted:More likely you won't take anything at all. So what? It doesn't matter what we ask for they won't give anything, that's the point. Any 'oh we'd be all for reasonable gun control but your demands are SOOOO extreme' are disingenuous bullshit.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:03
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Squalid posted:More likely you won't take anything at all. Idk public opinion is shifting pretty fast, and it's not like mass shootings are going to stop on their own so the trend will likely continue even as the percentage of the population that owns guns continues to decline (while gun sales increase as the shrinking number of crazies buy ever more ridiculous arsenals to fight RaHoWa) Republicans passed a gun control bill this year in FL, if someone claimed last year that this would happen they'd have been laughed out of the room.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:05
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:he never said the thing you're afraid he might one day say. but you feel like, maybe, possibly, it's open to interpretation, if you read between the lines, and the spirit moves you, that he might think that way. Do you have anything but name calling, strawmen and lack of capitalization for me? VitalSigns posted:I don't have one, all you've given me is a paraphrase whereof even you say you're not sure of the meaning, and claimed he went above and beyond what the EU (which does not ban all guns) dictates, but a ton of member countries have more gun laws than the EU minimum so that's meaningless. How am I supposed to know what this guy thinks, I guess like you I should just project my worst nightmares onto him and claim he supports whatever my narrative requires him to support? I guess it is futile to discuss the Swedish gun laws with non Swedish speakers since very little is translated, Swedish gun laws is hardly an international topic. I could give you links and ref numbers to documents that support my claims but I doubt it would add much to the debate if you can't read them. If another Scandi speaker want to chime in, it would help, yes. I can understand the US situation, you can point at proposals and claim that if those laws where in place, lives would have been saved. This is not the situation in Sweden. Lives would not be saved by the laws proposed. The last mass shooting in Sweden was in 94, perpetrated by a drunk officer with a rifle stolen from the armory. They would not keep guns out of the hands of nazis as they are already denied owning guns(and I'm perfectly happy with this being the case). They would not prevent the gang violence we do see in Sweden. Whatever purpose the gun control advocates in Sweden have, they can not claim that they are saving lives or making the street safer. What we do know is that they have stated that they want to curtail the access to guns as much as possible. If this means they literally want to ban all guns or not, I don't particularly care since the the outcome for me will be the same. So my point is, even if the laws that existed kept the public safe from deranged gun owners, gun control advocates do not stop fighting for tighter gun laws. This is what the gun owners think in any case. As such they will feel that any concession will only lead to further bans. Since I'm not part of the US gun control group, I can not possibly claim what your true motives are but I can tell you what the gun owners feel and thus will act like.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:44
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"Gun control advocates want to ban all guns" "Which ones, specifically, are advocating banning all guns." "Well none, but some of them are proposing laws that I personally do not agree with and don't think would save lives, and if you project a sinister motive from my nightmares onto those people, it's the same thing." Cool thanks for the talk! Off to dig my civil war bunker now!
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Jul 22, 2018 19:51
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Well, I do consider a statement of intent to ban guns as a wish to ban guns but that's just me. But I can admit that there is not any major politician that states that they aim to ban literally all guns, happy?
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Jul 22, 2018 19:59
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Noshtane posted:Do you have anything but name calling, strawmen and lack of capitalization for me? soon as you offer something more than somebody, somewhere, saying something that you felt was insufficiently deferent to the holy Gun to discuss, you will be something more than a paranoid delusional demanding his delusions be treated seriously. coincidentally, this will never occur, because this discussion has never been based on reality. it has always been about your frustration people aren't treating your toys- and you by extension- with the respect you think they're due.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:00
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Noshtane posted:Well, I do consider a statement of intent to ban guns as a wish to ban guns but that's just me. Everyone wants to ban some guns. Even the NRA supports America's ban on fully automatic weapons. Noshtane posted:But I can admit that there is not any major politician that states that they aim to ban literally all guns, happy? Yes.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:08
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VitalSigns posted:"Gun control advocates want to ban all guns" So all the people in this thread who have said multiple times their goal is to literally confiscate all the guns, they are just kooks, and that no politician would ever agree with that viewpoint?
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Jul 22, 2018 20:08
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I'm all for reasonable
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Jul 22, 2018 20:09
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zapplez posted:So all the people in this thread who have said multiple times their goal is to literally confiscate all the guns, they are just kooks, and that no politician would ever agree with that viewpoint? VitalSigns posted:If you can't tell the difference between prominent gun control advocates in real life and shitposts on a dead hetero comedy forum maybe you need to step away from the computer for a while.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:09
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zapplez posted:So all the people in this thread who have said multiple times their goal is to literally confiscate all the guns, they are just kooks, and that no politician would ever agree with that viewpoint? are you literally unable to function in society or what's going on
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Jul 22, 2018 20:13
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Do you people have any argument for why taking all guns is wrong, or would you rather argue about whether anyone is actually saying that
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Jul 22, 2018 20:17
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I literally dream of a world with no weapons and limited means to do violence. I wish for a peaceful world. All weapons are odious.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:37
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Flowers For Algeria posted:I literally dream of a world with no weapons and limited means to do violence. I wish for a peaceful world. All weapons are odious. vote killer comet/bear attack 2020
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Jul 22, 2018 20:40
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Try to think of a world where no one uses or even has knowledge of weapons.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:40
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Try to think of a world where no one uses or even has knowledge of weapons. humanity would quickly observe that bears are armed with teeth, and would invent knives also industrial explosives are ready made IEDs, and that fact becomes obvious the second someone disregards safety procedures and blows up three guys some ingenious engineer will then proceed to put explosives in a barrel with a bullet on top, inventing the first GUN
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Jul 22, 2018 20:41
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Lmao if you still live on a continent with bears of all things I mean, why do y'all go settle the most improbable areas? Bear-filled forests... just lol Also how hilarious is it that you can't imagine a world where people's first thought isn't "wow how can I use this to harm a fellow person". Your brain is broken.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:47
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Also how hilarious is it that you can't imagine a world where people's first thought isn't "wow how can I use this to harm a fellow person". Your brain is broken. counterpoint: every major society ever. your brain is broken, rendering you incapable of grasping the concept that peace and low murder rates must be actively worked for rather than being the default state humanity settles into
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Jul 22, 2018 20:51
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suck my woke dick posted:counterpoint: every major society ever No, I know that. But I can imagine one. And boy can I wish for one, and advocate for it! Join us, suck my woke dick. Join the people who want a peaceful world and advocate for it! You'll be a much better person. All you need to do is to abandon your guns.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:54
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Flowers For Algeria posted:No, I know that. i can't do that because i don't own any guns to abandon in the first place but as someone who prefers peace and low murder rates i would prefer to do things that actually promote peace and low murder rates
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Jul 22, 2018 20:55
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I, too, have no ideals
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Jul 22, 2018 21:02
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