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Sampatrick posted:I posted this earlier to show that UW is probably better than Jeskai but people refuse to accept that Bolt might not be what you want in your Control deck in Modern If the choice is between having 36 points of burn in a control deck and playing terminus then the answer is obviously the first one. Bant Spirits might change that though so we'll see.
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Jul 20, 2018 05:52
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I just want a viable list where I can play Lightning Helix that doesn't require me to buy Colonnades (and also isn't Burn I guess). I've seen a couple of Jeskai Midrange lists that look fun but would probably be better off with some manlands and ugh $60 
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Jul 20, 2018 06:07
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C-Euro posted:I just want a viable list where I can play Lightning Helix that doesn't require me to buy Colonnades (and also isn't Burn I guess). I've seen a couple of Jeskai Midrange lists that look fun but would probably be better off with some manlands and ugh $60 Don't worry, they'll reprint them in the next Masters set and they'll drop to $55 for 3 hours.
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Jul 20, 2018 06:11
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That data is a bit mindboggling, since Jeskai ends up showing bad-to-awful matchups against all the small creature aggro decks it's theoretically supposed to be good against. Like if a pile of 1-mana removal spells, Snapcasters, and maindeck Lightning Helixes can't hold it down against aggro what the hell is the deck doing?
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Jul 20, 2018 12:58
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AnEdgelord posted:If the choice is between having 36 points of burn in a control deck and playing terminus then the answer is obviously the first one. Why? This is a pretty weird statement to me. It’s “obvious” you want a bunch of a burn, a typically aggressive effect, in your control deck that’s medium at best at being aggressive? Rather than the potentially one-cost sweeper? Even *if* true, that’s not exactly obvious. Looking at the stats posted by multiple people here, and the preferences of big name pro players, it seems UW is the deck you should play. The thing that’s probably more interesting to discuss is if it’s the Miracle version or the Spreading Seas version of UW that’s doing so well, or if they’re being combined. I’m guessing they’re being combined because I have a hard time imagining how UW miracles has such a high win% against Tron without Spreading Seas, but I’d be happy to hear input on that.
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Jul 20, 2018 12:58
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Yeah a typical control deck does not care overly much about having reach since you probably won't doing damage to the enemy until you've completely taken over the game anyways. I guess it's nice being able to keep Grixis Shadow a little honest about their life total but otherwise it doesn't seem super relevant.
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Jul 20, 2018 13:09
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DurdleDuck posted:Why? This is a pretty weird statement to me. It’s “obvious” you want a bunch of a burn, a typically aggressive effect, in your control deck that’s medium at best at being aggressive? Rather than the potentially one-cost sweeper? Even *if* true, that’s not exactly obvious. Spreading seas has fallen out of favor, nobody seems to be playing it right now. It was never amazing vs. tron anyway; they were still going to play an o-stone and pop it with only 5 lands, islands or not. UW miracles runs 4 field of ruin and usually 1 ghost quarter to help deal with issues like that and is not scared of the creature component of tron at all, so you can focus your efforts on preventing them from landing a karn or an ugin and you're usually good. UW control is also less susceptible to an ulamog exiling two lands when cast than jeskai is because of how clean the manabase is. I still don't like playing the matchup (with any deck) but I'm not as scared of it as I used to be. I also run a crucible in the sideboard and an extra negate along with 2 stony silence, plus dispels to protect those so it's even better after sideboarding. I don't know that jeskai or UW is better than the other, but they play along two different axis. It's not entirely an apples to apples comparison with the two. My local store has plenty of mardu pyromancer, hollow one, humans, and elves so I've been cleaning up with UW miracles lately. Jeskai seems less good against hollow one and the k-command decks for sure, so I like UW right now.
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Jul 20, 2018 13:29
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Voyager I posted:That data is a bit mindboggling, since Jeskai ends up showing bad-to-awful matchups against all the small creature aggro decks it's theoretically supposed to be good against. More painful mana base. Jeskai is also really bad at dealing with cards like Etched Champion and most decks in Modern have some type of resilient threat like that. Field of Ruin is also a big deal given how good it is against stuff like Tron.
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Jul 20, 2018 13:33
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Voyager I posted:That data is a bit mindboggling, since Jeskai ends up showing bad-to-awful matchups against all the small creature aggro decks it's theoretically supposed to be good against. The data is honestly not good, it's just laid out decently. The sample sizes aren't there.
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Jul 20, 2018 15:19
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ShaneB posted:The data is honestly not good, it's just laid out decently. The sample sizes aren't there. Agreed, 3 gps is too few and it leads to some weird things in the data. Like Jeskai having atrocious kci and affinity win percentages while UW Control has positive win percentages against the. That statistic doesnt really make much sense and terminusing etched champions doesnt account for how massive the difference is. What im thinking is that the UW players had Stony Silence (or other good sideboard answers to those decks) in their sideboard while Jeskai players didnt. Something like that would absolutely produce those results and the small sample size makes a mountain out of a mole hill.
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Jul 20, 2018 15:30
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I mean, the sample size for individual matchups might be somewhat suspect, but the win rate percentages are quite a bit less so. 500+ matches is not an especially small sample size.
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Jul 20, 2018 16:51
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Sampatrick posted:I mean, the sample size for individual matchups might be somewhat suspect Yeah, this is what I am getting at, more than the win %s.
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Jul 20, 2018 17:14
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AnEdgelord posted:Agreed, 3 gps is too few and it leads to some weird things in the data. Like Jeskai having atrocious kci and affinity win percentages while UW Control has positive win percentages against the. it's very common for jeskai to not run any copies of stony
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Jul 20, 2018 17:22
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Spent the $125 I needed to finish up Bant Spirits. This better be good.
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Jul 21, 2018 23:52
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ShaneB posted:Spent the $125 I needed to finish up Bant Spirits. This better be good. I have high hopes for the deck. Plus I love value CoCo decks way more than the combo versions.
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Jul 22, 2018 01:04
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ShaneB posted:Spent the $125 I needed to finish up Bant Spirits. This better be good. What all did you have to get?
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Jul 22, 2018 02:38
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Sounds like either a pair of lands or every playable creature in the tribe  EDIT: sweet lord, the only Non-Spirit card in the maindeck that costs less than Spell Queller (the most expensive Spirit) is loving Botanical Sanctum. Even the Bird costs more. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 02:44
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Voyager I posted:Sounds like either a pair of lands or every playable creature in the tribe The majority of the creature base was printed in SOM or later so it's not a huge surprise, but it is nice that people who already have some of the more established staples like Hierarch and the lands will be able to take a flier on the deck if they want to try it. The next thing I want to test with the deck is, now that it has eight lords and every Spirit in the deck but Geist of St Traft flies, if it might not be better to cut out Geist entirely and add Phantasmal Image back in as lords 9 and 10. Lords+evasion seems to work well for Merfolk and you have better instant speed tricks. Geist just seems to be easily blocked by a lot of stuff but maybe that's OK as long as the angel token connects? Maybe I'm just under-valuing it since I always seem to have it out when blocking it isn't a big deal for my opponent. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 03:05
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C-Euro posted:The majority of the creature base was printed in SOM or later so it's not a huge surprise, but it is nice that people who already have some of the more established staples like Hierarch and the lands will be able to take a flier on the deck if they want to try it. In todd anderson's SCG article he talked about Phantasmal Image vs Geist Todd Anderson posted:There's been quite a bit of discussion recently on the merits of playing Geist of Saint Traft in the maindeck, and I'm inclined to agree that it deserves a slot. If anything, not playing Geist of Saint Traft in your maindeck is likely due to older versions that didn't have eight lord effects from other creatures. When you're just attacking with a 2/2 body, have no removal to clear blockers, and have no cheap ways to pump it in preparation for combat, Geist of Saint Traft doesn't look all that good. He also sided out Phantasmal image in 4 of the 5 matchups he discussed and sided in Geist in the same matchups (Jeskai, KCI, Storm, and Tron) with Humans being the matchup that he kept in the Images.
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Jul 22, 2018 03:19
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C-Euro posted:The majority of the creature base was printed in SOM or later so it's not a huge surprise, but it is nice that people who already have some of the more established staples like Hierarch and the lands will be able to take a flier on the deck if they want to try it. Yeah I put a Phantasm or two back into the deck and shoved Geist over to the sideboard. The Phantasms are kinda unreliable still, but you don't lean on them nearly as hard as you did when you only had four lords and copying Drogskol Captain remains utterly backbreaking in most situations (in addition to the goofy wins they can give you against Reality Smasher decks). Geist is indeed really liable to coming down T3 and already being irrelevant unless you're happy enough playing him as a Boros Charm. I will say one extra thing that the new lord has helped out with is making the deck much less vulnerable to pingers out of the sideboard. There were a lot of hate cards out there ready to haze the 1-toughness tribal deck, but you spend way less time trying not to get blown out with your army of 2/1s now that you have twice as many lords floating around. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 03:25
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Star Man posted:What all did you have to get? Like all the spirits. Hahaha
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Jul 22, 2018 04:02
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ShaneB posted:Like all the spirits. Hahaha That probably includes however many copies of Geist of Saint Traft that you bought.
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Jul 22, 2018 04:25
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Star Man posted:That probably includes however many copies of Geist of Saint Traft that you bought. Yes
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Jul 22, 2018 04:40
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Yeah I'm willing to be proven wrong about Geist, but if you had Images in the deck and took them out I wouldn't sell them off just yet. Leaving Geist out seems appropriate if your meta has a lot of beefy ground boys like Goyf, Delve creatures, and non-titan Eldrazi. I run three Geists right now and cutting them all for 2 Image would also let me bring back my fourth Path, which is also really appealing.
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Jul 22, 2018 05:34
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I cut both Image and 2 Geist for the lords. I hate the idea of not playing 4 Path. It's just too important to have one early against too many decks. Geist is funny; it's good against the decks you're already good against and it's usually horrible against the decks you're not. It gets much better with more lords, but it's also the card you want to cut for those lords. I'm still considering switching the Geists back to Images but Geist is good enough against enough decks that I think I want some. Image is almost always mediocre filler.
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Jul 22, 2018 05:45
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It doesn't even need to be big boys to give problems to Geist - there's no shortage of random value dorks in the format that would be delighted to trade their bodies for him, even in decks that don't normally put much on the board. EDIT: Image is often filler, but it's usually functional, sometimes excellent, and occasionally it's your own T2 Thought-Knot Seer. Geist is sometimes excellent and frequently dead on arrival. Image is also a lot easier to run now that you have more good plays to make early with the new Lord, even if it's not a great copy. EDIT EDIT: It's kinda funny that apparently everyone in the goddamn thread owns this goofy T? Deck, but I guess if you already own Bant mana and Hierarchs it barely costs anything to put together. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 05:46
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The important thing about geist is that he can speed up you clock considerably against some of the less interactive decks in the format. Something you can stick on turn 2 with a dork and starts swinging for 6+ a turn is huge amount of pressure.
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Jul 22, 2018 05:54
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Turn 2 Geist kills on turn 5 with no other plays. It's the only start that can lead to a turn 4 kill afaik. Geist's real value is being extremely hard to race and being a great threat to flash in with Rattlechains. Geist almost always forces your opponent to leave back a blocker and to play suboptimally to ensure they have a blocker. Stuff like playing creatures pre-combat to see if they resolve, making bad blocks because they have to make you sac your Selfless Spirit so they can kill Geist next turn, even leaving 2 blockers back to play around Path. All these things give you little edges in the game that are easy to take advantage of.
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Jul 22, 2018 06:05
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My big question about the Traft man is this: is he good in the matchups where Spirits does bad?
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Jul 22, 2018 23:19
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TheKingofSprings posted:My big question about the Traft man is this: is he good in the matchups where Spirits does bad? I've won games against Jund by chumping a large Goyf fot several turns until I was able to Gavony him up to being bigger than the Goyf. It was only a few hits for lethal and his hand of Fatal Pushes and Terminates looked pretty stupid. But no. It's very bad against their halfway functional draws.
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Jul 23, 2018 00:56
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suicidesteve posted:I've won games against Jund by chumping a large Goyf fot several turns until I was able to Gavony him up to being bigger than the Goyf. It was only a few hits for lethal and his hand of Fatal Pushes and Terminates looked pretty stupid. Isn’t Jund a good matchup, especially now?
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Jul 23, 2018 00:59
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TheKingofSprings posted:Isn’t Jund a good matchup, especially now? Dear god no. It's probably the deck I want to be paired against the least. It's nothing but a giant pile of removal for your deck that needs to have multiple creatures in play.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:09
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Someone give me a t1/t2 general win percentage for bant spirits plz.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:38
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ShaneB posted:Someone give me a t1/t2 general win percentage for bant spirits plz. Bant Spirits wins on turn 1 and turn 2 0% of the time against a goldfish.
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Jul 23, 2018 02:02
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suicidesteve posted:Bant Spirits wins on turn 1 and turn 2 0% of the time against a goldfish. Sounds good to me.
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Jul 23, 2018 02:51
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TheKingofSprings posted:Isn’t Jund a good matchup, especially now? My very first match with Spirits was against Jund and I somehow won (in 3). Helps that I got Drogskol Captain + Image copying Drogskol into play game 3, then was able to flash in enough blockers to outrace him. Bolt also gets worse with eight lords in the deck. He complained a lot about Selfless Spirit after the match so definitely run four if you think you'll see Jund. Blanks removal for a turn, lets you block Goyf care-free, beat Damnation out of the board. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 23, 2018 03:26
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TheKingofSprings posted:My big question about the Traft man is this: is he good in the matchups where Spirits does bad? As it happens, he's at his very worst. Spirits tends to struggle against faster aggro decks - your creatures trade speed for evasion and utility, which isn't worth much when you're the one on the back foot, all you 2/1s are awful at blocking, and you run a pretty painful manabase. A 2/2 body on the ground is not gonna get much done when you're already getting beaten up by Elves or whatever. Removal.dec is actually not the worst matchup in the world for Spirits though - you have a lot of ways to punish spot removal or make it inconvenient to use, and one blowout on a Lightning Bolt where you get to keep a creature on the board that you weren't supposed to can decide a game. EDIT: Moorland Haunt is also a house and a half against grindy decks. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 23, 2018 03:42
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TheKingofSprings posted:Isn’t Jund a good matchup, especially now? Yes please play the creature deck against a pile of removal and planeswalkers that kill creatures.
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Jul 23, 2018 03:55
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TheKingofSprings posted:Isn’t Jund a good matchup, especially now? literally the only way spirits beats jund/mardu is coco into two copies of drogskol cavalry (or one and a phantasmal spirit)
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Jul 23, 2018 04:20
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little munchkin posted:drogskol cavalry (or one and a phantasmal spirit) This doesn't work. Clone effects can't copy a thing that's coming into play as the same time. It's why nobody plays Clone as anti-Sneak and Show tech. Also it's Captain. Drogskol Cavalry costs like, 7. Also also even double Captain doesn't always work thanks to Lili.
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Jul 23, 2018 04:58
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