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Falstaff posted:Hey kingcom, I appreciated your breakdown of FFG Star Wars and your take on its strengths and weaknesses. Just wanted to mention that given how much negativity it seems to have garnered you. It's legitimately funny how angry people are getting that king is actually talking about the system in detail instead of doing random flyby making GBS threads on it.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:33
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ProfessorCirno posted:It's legitimately funny how angry people are getting that king is actually talking about the system in detail instead of doing random flyby making GBS threads on it. 
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Jul 22, 2018 18:35
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I think the problem here is, a lot of people want to play Star Wars as it is in their heads, and not Star Wars as it is in the films. And that's fine. But EotE/AoR are pretty darn good at running Star Wars as it is in the films*, so it makes the arguments about the systems not being true to the source material comes across as pretty funny! *well, the original trilogy.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:40
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kingcom posted:Okay you're both confusing two mechanics and fundamental not understanding how the dice work. First morality system in force and destiny (which again is kind of poo poo) is what you are talking about. The dice don't have you fall to the dark just by rolling it, its whether you choose to have the power succeed even though you rolled dark side pips. You are choosing to succeed at the roll by embracing the dark side, it means that when a jedi tries to use many power, as long as its not against a nemesis or rival, they will not have to make a skill check or anything. Your pass/fail is on that dice but the mechanic means that you always succeed, sometimes its just with a price attached. You know, fail forward. To also point out if you aren't playing Force and Destiny or are not using the Morality system on this character, the cost is just strain and flipping a destiny point. That's not the issue. Yes, you can roll dark side pips and then you have to choose to have the power succeed at a cost, but you the player still know that you could just as well have rolled light side pips, in which case that choice would be moot. You aren't having to make that moral choice because of something you're doing, it's purely because the dice came unlucky. I guess it's trying to go for something like the PbtA "choose to fail, or success at a cost" thing, but it doesn't work because in that system the GM is expected to come up with an explanation of why the choice is needed. Here there's no IC explanation offered of that choice other than "hey, the force, man". So if this is just how the Force works, you get at random free light side power, or dark side power you can refuse? Because that implies that Yoda could have fallen or died if he'd gotten unlucky rolls if/when his life was on the line. quote:The gently caress are you talking about? Lightsabers, to be useful against ranged attacks, need the character to have the reflect talent. It lets you trade strain to reduce damage from ranged attacks, you can get more ranks to get more damage reduce on your strain spend. What makes auto-fire dangerous is you can potentially get multiple hits so the jedi needs to spend more strain to block more damage. Auto-fire is useful but as pointed out, the specific build that makes it crazy is being able to turn the auto-fire trigger to 1 advantage instead of 2. Otherwise at most a auto-fire is hitting twice. So lets figure out the math on it, most characters can reliably get 4 Soak from their 2 brawn + 2 armour. The lowest rank of reflect lets you spend 3 strain to reduce 3 damage but you're fighting enemies who are reliably getting enough advantage to get 2 hits, then the player probably has at least 2 ranks in reflect (meaning 3 strain for 4 damage reduction). The Heavy blaster rifle, the weapon infamous for its auto-fire does 10 damage + successes (we'll say 11 damage for clarity). So shooting at our jedi, each hit that they get is only doing 3 damage. A stormtrooper pulls up this light machine gun and dumps fire at a jedi for a minute straight and he'll do what, 6 damage assuming he gets a hit (which is now harder since hes auto-firing) and gets 2 hits? Seems like the lightsaber was real good against the auto-fire. Ok, ok. I'll admit that on this my argument is a bit weak because I've been relating it to the situation that came up in my game, which was a Jedi PC who chose to use a Heavy Blaster Rifle against a Sith NPC rather than his saber because it was (much) more effective. PC Jedi are not generally in danger of being blasted down by NPC Stormtroopers. NPC Jedi/Sith are probably at risk of being blasted by PC gun users but that is probably desirable.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:00
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Has Ettin remembered his password yet?
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Jul 22, 2018 19:00
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Has Ettin remembered his password yet? Is that why the Old school D&D thread got the way it is lately?
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Jul 22, 2018 19:06
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remusclaw posted:Is that why the Old school D&D thread got the way it is lately?
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Jul 22, 2018 19:07
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No mods no masters
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Jul 22, 2018 19:08
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remusclaw posted:Is that why TG got the way it is lately?
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Jul 22, 2018 19:09
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Star Bores
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Jul 22, 2018 19:10
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Also FAU confirmed that my buttons are coming in a few hours, he's just taking it up with the taxman about it.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:11
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Splicer posted:But EotE/AoR are pretty darn good at running Star Wars as it is in the films*, so it makes the arguments about the systems not being true to the source material comes across as pretty funny! This is blatantly not true unless you think that Luke starting out as a farmer means that characters in a Star Wars game somehow have to be knocked out in a handful of attacks or be buried in gearporn and talents with incredibly minor mechanical effects until they've adventured enough to earn basic competency. The films are literally pulpy action movies that obey the internal logic of pulpy film narratives. Characters start out either competent or so lucky it makes up for their lack of experience, and succeed or suffer setbacks as determined entirely by what would make the film interesting to watch. They don't stop to discuss the relative merits of one blaster model over another, slightly different one because that wouldn't be interesting for the audience. They get shot at by entire platoons of elite soldiers without ever being hit and by entire squadrons of fighters without being blown up in the air because they're the heroes and it's a film. Whenever a bad thing happens to them, it's so they can bounce back from that bad thing in a better position than they were before. You might personally want a gritty game where the PCs go from zero to hero, slowly gaining competence over the course of dozens of sessions, and where combat is lethal and you have to put serious consideration into what gear you're using. That's fine, but that game isn't Star Wars as portrayed in the original trilogy. Star Wars, as portrayed in the original trilogy, is a game where a naive farmer, a petty criminal, his hired muscle and a strong-willed lady with a posh ubringing can have an encounter with multiple dozens of elite bad guys and walk away with their objectives accomplished, basically unscathed, at the cost of the mentor NPC doing a noble sacrifice because it's a cool character moment, the naive farmer losing his hand for approximately five minutes, or the petty criminal getting knocked out for three scenes. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 19:16
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Sounds like Feng Shui 2 to me.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:27
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Moriatti posted:Sounds like Feng Shui 2 to me. FS2 would absolutely be a great base to run Star Wars with, yeah. You honestly don't even need to bother with new archetypes, the existing ones reskin just fine to cover 90% of what you'd want to play.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:33
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Lemon-Lime posted:FS2 would absolutely be a great base to run Star Wars with, yeah. You honestly don't even need to bother with new archetypes, the existing ones reskin just fine to cover 90% of what you'd want to play. I also more-or-less reverse engineered how to make custom archetypes! It's accurate to ALMOST all the official ones.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:34
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Falstaff posted:Hey kingcom, I appreciated your breakdown of FFG Star Wars and your take on its strengths and weaknesses. Just wanted to mention that given how much negativity it seems to have garnered you.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:34
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fool_of_sound posted:I also more-or-less reverse engineered how to make custom archetypes! It's accurate to ALMOST all the official ones. I take back all the bad things I said about you. I wil, also play ypur Star Wars game now.
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Jul 22, 2018 19:38
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Is there a resource, or does someone mind making a post, giving a brief overview of the various options for playing Glorantha? Like "this system is the crunchiest, this one is the most story game-ish, this one best simulates the weirdness of the setting" is the kind of thing I'm looking for more than detailed reviews (though I'll take those if there's one already written up).
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Jul 22, 2018 20:32
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I realize it's not what most people want out of Star Wars but I would love a SW RPG where playing a Jedi meant having Fate point-style narrative tools and re-rolls rather than the showier force powers, which you maybe get one or two of (recovering your lightsaber or compelling the weak-minded are nice) and they're not your main power at all. Something that really leans into the Force as the Dao, an all-encompassing interconnectivity that allows its practioners to see the most efficient way to proceed and to know things like 'where a blaster is aimed' and 'the Rebellion is definitely on Hoth.' I think that second one is really Vader's most impressive show of power in the OT, when he proves that the power to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the Force. The Empire would not have found the Rebellion without him, and thus all their martial power would have been useless. Similarly, a light saber is more 'elegant' and limited than a blaster, but if you know precisely how to apply it, it's far more effective - or how Yoda should not be judged by his size. This also fits my desire for a Star Wars game with more Kurosawa in its style.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:48
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There are basically three systems for Glorantha being supported right now: 1) HEROQUEST GLORANTHA - The latest iteration of the Robin Laws HERO WARS ruleset, this is extremely narrative and story-gamey (difficulties of tasks are set by whatever would make the most dramatically level, for instance) 2) 13TH AGE GLORANTHA - Giant add-on sourcebook for the D20-descended 13TH AGE system, detailing Gloranthan character classes, monsters, magic, and setting info so you can run a 13A campaign. Good if you want something that supports traditional D20/4E encounters-and-monsters gaming 3) RUNEQUEST GLORANTHA - Latest iteration of the simulation-y RQ system, which was first published in 1979 and was designed by SCA nerds who thought D&D combat was too abstract. It's OSR-ness is still evident in the current system, but they've added some more modern elements on top of it (most notably a very PENDRAGONy system for dealing with passions and runes). Of all the systems, this one seems to be getting the most current support (it's also roughly compatible with almost 40 years of previously published RQ material). They republished the original 1979 edition a couple of years ago as RUNEQUEST CLASSIC.
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Jul 22, 2018 20:55
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FMguru posted:There are basically three systems for Glorantha being supported right now: Thanks!
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Jul 22, 2018 20:56
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What are the be-all-end-all supplemental texts for the regions of Glorantha outside of Dragon Pass? I know there's the massive $170 encyclopedia, but are there any more approachable books that are valuable resources for that information?
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Jul 22, 2018 21:34
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Nuns with Guns posted:What are the be-all-end-all supplemental texts for the regions of Glorantha outside of Dragon Pass? I know there's the massive $170 encyclopedia, but are there any more approachable books that are valuable resources for that information? There was a supplement covering Dorastor (the chaos wasteland on the fringe of the Lunar Empire) published by Avalon Hill in the 1990s. The (long out of print) Genertela box set from the late 1980s detailed the northern continent outside of Dragon Pass, as did the world-book for the Hero Wars line. Most of the Stafford Library monographs cover other parts of the world but that's some deep dive graduate-seminar level Gloranthology, best tackled after you've read the 800-page Guide to Glorantha. There is a lot of fan material covering the parts of the world outside of Dragon Pass/Sartar/Holy Country, but that's hard to come by and distinctly non-canonical (waves at the Pameltela special issue of TotRM and the Rough Guide to Sog City on my bookshelf). But for what you're asking for, the GtG is pretty much the go-to source.
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Jul 22, 2018 22:11
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Lemon-Lime posted:This is blatantly not true unless you think that Luke starting out as a farmer means that characters in a Star Wars game somehow have to be knocked out in a handful of attacks or be buried in gearporn and talents with incredibly minor mechanical effects until they've adventured enough to earn basic competency. EotE characters start out extremely competent in their areas of expertise, assuming you've built them correctly. 4 or 3 dice mean you're probably going to succeed at most things you try, and if you fail you'll fail with benefits. Again, it's a hugely fail forward, or at least sideways, system, which is very suited to pulpy action. The trench run is a great example, because from a system point of view Luke is basically using the rest of red squadron as ablative armour. He only survives because the mook squad keep dumping black dice on Vader until Han rolls a lucky Triumph. This is it. The groggiest, nerdiest thing I've ever written. And I'm including the cheese thing. Obviously a completely narrative system will do a better job of literally running by narrative conventions, but if you want a system that spits out results that are extremely narrative-ey in nature, the FFG dice are your man. The only thing you've listed here that's incompatible with the game as written is the gear porn, and the reason that's a big issue is because it makes you think what gun you have is important. It's a completely superfluous part of the game you could completely replace it with the weapon table from WFRPG3 with "Blaster" and "Laser" scribbled on the important bits and make no difference to the core functionality. Combat being lethal is an issue, until you look at the actual films. Especially the first one. How many times are there actual fights? There's a lot of escapes, but drag-out fights? It's mainly a lot of running away from stormtroopers because they will kill you. Yes, assuming by "encounter" you mean "run away from, be captured by, and/or turn to your side to murder their boss". Which you should, because that's way more fun than just shooting at people.
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Jul 22, 2018 22:14
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I dunno, I keep thinking about Endor where 4 dudes and some teddy bears with rocks absolutely clown on an entire platoon of storm troopers defending a highly secure compound
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Jul 22, 2018 22:23
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fool_of_sound posted:I dunno, I keep thinking about Endor where 4 dudes and some teddy bears with rocks absolutely clown on an entire platoon of storm troopers defending a highly secure compound Also, end of the campaign, lot XP gained oh god just kill me. The new hope detention centre shootout would be an even better example... where again, they set things up so they shoot first. The enemy minions get wiped out before they can throw more than a couple of shots off. Splicer fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 22:35
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Yes hi, I recently acquired a ton of MERP books and was thinking about using some of the material for the One Ring. Any suggestions? I was eyeing the Court of Ardor because it's something new and would help the players feel like they can make a difference rather than just laboring in the shadow of the Fellowship and Thorin's Company, but I've only had the chance to skim it and I'm concerned it's more D&D than Tolkien. I'm not against that per se but I do want the players to feel connected to Middle-EarthLemon-Lime posted:FS2 would absolutely be a great base to run Star Wars with, yeah. You honestly don't even need to bother with new archetypes, the existing ones reskin just fine to cover 90% of what you'd want to play. It's extremely flexible. I ran Marvel Martial Arts in it a couple years ago with almost no trouble. FMguru posted:There are basically three systems for Glorantha being supported right now: Good post. One extremely minor quibble: Runequest Classic isn't RQ1, it's Runequest 2 from 1980. They're pretty much the same game, RQ2 is mostly just the same material but edited better (better, not good, before anyone jumps on me) and reformatted but 2e is the famous one that most people would have played. Nuns with Guns posted:What are the be-all-end-all supplemental texts for the regions of Glorantha outside of Dragon Pass? I know there's the massive $170 encyclopedia, but are there any more approachable books that are valuable resources for that information? Griffin Mountain is outside of Dragon Pass technically and it's one of the best setting books ever published. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 22:43
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I'd like Feng Shui as a system more if exploding dice in either direction didn't result in really swingy rolls a lot of the time in my experience.
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Jul 22, 2018 22:49
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Griffin Mountain is like thirty years old and it's still one of very few games I've ever seen that has an explicit tutorial adventure that teaches you through the different game systems as you progress through it and more games need to do that, frankly.
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Jul 22, 2018 22:49
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remusclaw posted:Is that why the Old school D&D thread got the way it is lately? This is solely down to the new thread poster, Xotl, being a complete shithead.
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Jul 22, 2018 23:00
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Lightning Lord posted:Yes hi, I recently acquired a ton of MERP books and was thinking about using some of the material for the One Ring. Any suggestions? I was eyeing the Court of Ardor because it's something new and would help the players feel like they can make a difference rather than just laboring in the shadow of the Fellowship and Thorin's Company, but I've only had the chance to skim it and I'm concerned it's more D&D than Tolkien. I'm not against that per se but I do want the players to feel connected to Middle-Earth And you've discovered the truth of MERP - it was meant to facilitate D&D-style adventuring in Middle Earth, not to support Tolkienian themes and adventures. Which, considering that the first materials date back to like 1982 or so, is fine - but it means the adventures are full of gridded maps and monsters and traps and secret doors and treasures and magic items, and the supplements are about detailing all the character and items in wargame-y detail (I mean, it not only stats out all nine Nazgul and Sauron, but also Morgoth and even Ungoliant). My advice is to use the background material and the maps (which are superb) and use them as the foundations on which to build proper One Ring or Fellowship adventures. Also, be aware that it draws from sources available in the 1980s - which means the regular books, the Silmarilion, Unfinished Tales, and the first two Books of Lost Tales. The RPG writers had to fill in the gaps with their own material and interpretations, some of which has been contradicted by Christopher's later publications. There's stuff in there that will set your purist gland throbbing, particularly if you're familiar with the most recently published material from the Tolkien estate.
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Jul 22, 2018 23:12
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Runequest does make me a little sad how anchored it is to Dragon Pass. Feel like you should be able to run more poo poo in places that don't worship the Storm Pantheon, at least.
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Jul 22, 2018 23:14
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SunAndSpring posted:Runequest does make me a little sad how anchored it is to Dragon Pass. Feel like you should be able to run more poo poo in places that don't worship the Storm Pantheon, at least. - New Glorantha game announced - Promises to get around to detailing the rest of the world outside of DP/Prax - Starts republishing the usual suspects (hey, the material is 90% complete already) while prepping manuscripts for new places - Runs out of steam or into difficulty before publishing anything about Fronela or Ralios or Fonrit - A little while later, a new Glorantha game is announced... I've read from various publishers that non-Dragon Pass stuff just sells a fraction of the classic material, so the economics of going outside of central Genertela just don't support doing more than dabbling in it. The majority of Glorantha fans have spoken, and it seems what they want is to buy Apple Lane over and over again for all eternity. The Mongoose Second Age game had its share of problems, but it did publish sourcebooks for Fronela and Ralios and Jrustela and the Clanking City and a giant campaign set in the Dara Happan Heartland (you get to overthrow the heretical Sun Dragon Emperor!) and full guides for playing Dwarf and Elf and Duck and Dragonewt characters. There was even a complete God Learner sourcebook! Finally, I'd be very happy if it was a good long time before I had to read another giant book about trolls.
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Jul 22, 2018 23:31
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FMguru posted:
Hey, at least this edition broke with tradition and didn't have Kyger Litor as the only troll cult in the corebook!
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Jul 22, 2018 23:41
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FMguru posted:The Mongoose Second Age game had its share of problems, but it did publish sourcebooks for Fronela and Ralios and Jrustela and the Clanking City and a giant campaign set in the Dara Happan Heartland (you get to overthrow the heretical Sun Dragon Emperor!) and full guides for playing Dwarf and Elf and Duck and Dragonewt characters. There was even a complete God Learner sourcebook! Wasn't it all poorly written though? FMguru posted:MERP stuff sells for a pretty penny on the used market; depending on how cheaply you acquired them, you might be sitting on a gold mine. Yeah but how easy is it to glean material useful for TOR though? Like is Ardor completely useless outside of D&D With Tolkien Names?
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Jul 23, 2018 00:02
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FMguru posted:I've watched several iterations of the cycle I reckon if they did a book on the West and Kralorea you could piece together the rest of Glorantha from existing material and the upcoming Gods of Glorantha sourcebook. They'd cover stuff that needs new rules, like Sorcery, Mysticism, Naval combat, martial arts and some of the stranger cults. Wrestlepig fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 23, 2018 00:20
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Popehat is dead to me. https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1020860380556374016?s=19
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Jul 23, 2018 01:38
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All this arguing is great but what if people had fun playing Elfgames? WWE Superstars play D&D - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ine-ZApwF8
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Jul 23, 2018 01:41
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dwarf74 posted:Popehat is dead to me. he's a libertarian what did you expect
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Jul 23, 2018 01:59
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LongDarkNight posted:All this arguing is great but what if people had fun playing Elfgames? WWE Superstars play D&D - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ine-ZApwF8 D&D is good now?
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Jul 23, 2018 02:48
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