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Things like straw bans are useful for raising awareness and building social muscle. If you want to work people up to large concessions like no longer consuming seafood or ruminants, you need to start with something more bite sized first. We could make large changes to our biological impact by managing what we eat and how we package it. We just need to get people used to the sort of small impact multiplied over a large population style of solutions that this requires.
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Jul 20, 2018 17:20
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Things like straw bans are useful for raising awareness and building social muscle. If you want to work people up to large concessions like no longer consuming seafood or ruminants, you need to start with something more bite sized first. We can't actually though. Again, even if we reduce US plastic waste to zero, that still leaves 99% of plastic inflow into the ocean. The problem is not that impact is too small, but that it doesn't address the causes of plastic pollution while making people feel as though they're making a difference. At best straw bans are a wash: you get less non-biodegradable litter and reduce plastic inflow by a teeny-weeny amount, at the cost of distracting people from the causes of the problem.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:46
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Really? If the entire consumer culture of the United States went disposable plastic free, it wouldn't have any implications for manufacturers and plastic consumption in other countries?
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Jul 20, 2018 23:08
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Jeavon's paradox: Less/more efficient consumption => lower price => more consumption somewhere else. I think that's what the post two up from me is trying to say.
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Jul 20, 2018 23:16
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sitchensis posted:Really? If the entire consumer culture of the United States went disposable plastic free, it wouldn't have any implications for manufacturers and plastic consumption in other countries? I wouldn't say it would have no effect, but I doubt it would have a major effect. The US doesn't have much plastic pollution mainly because the plastic used here ends up in landfills, but that hasn't prompted a cascade of other countries adopting landfills. If you look at how global environmental issues have been solved in the past (e.g. the ozone hole, DDT, etc.) it's always been by broad international agreements, not with tiny incremental steps by individuals, cities and countries. I don't see any reason to believe plastic pollution is any different or that the US can play an outsized role.
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Jul 20, 2018 23:44
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Dawncloack posted:Jeavon's paradox: I actually think Jevon's paradox is a fallacy; I'm more of a Kuznets curve kinda guy. Although it does have some validity it varies from area to area and plastic is one of the areas where Kuznets predominates. Thug Lessons fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jul 21, 2018 |
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Jul 20, 2018 23:45
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Plastic isn't even particularly toxic, it's mechanically harmful. I don't know about straws specifically but the form of plastic matters vastly more than the amount. A million ton cube of plastic in the ocean would be basically harmless but a bunch of little bits of plastic would be fatal to lots of fish. It's entirely possible for straws to be a shape that makes straws specifically a worse type of plastic than like, a 2 liter bottle or an old NES or something that is hard to choke on.
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Jul 21, 2018 01:30
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Plastic isn't even particularly toxic, it's mechanically harmful. I don't know about straws specifically but the form of plastic matters vastly more than the amount. A million ton cube of plastic in the ocean would be basically harmless but a bunch of little bits of plastic would be fatal to lots of fish. It's entirely possible for straws to be a shape that makes straws specifically a worse type of plastic than like, a 2 liter bottle or an old NES or something that is hard to choke on. The real problem is that the plastic waste that actually goes into the ocean breaks down into microplastics that bioaccumulate. There was actually a whale found this year with 17 pounds of plastic in its stomach. The problem isn't that it's toxic; it's that it doesn't biodegrade, which is why it's accumulating into trash gyres and saturating the waters to begin with.
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Jul 21, 2018 01:45
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Thug Lessons posted:The real problem is that the plastic waste that actually goes into the ocean breaks down into microplastics that bioaccumulate. There was actually a whale found this year with 17 pounds of plastic in its stomach. The problem isn't that it's toxic; it's that it doesn't biodegrade, which is why it's accumulating into trash gyres and saturating the waters to begin with. That is why it is disingenuous to calculate the percent mass of plastic something is. The form of plastic is what matters, not the amount. A 6 pack ring is a vanishly small amount of the overall plastic but it presented a specific physical danger to a specific set of endangered animals. It was meaningless that 6 pack rings made up little of the total plastic, the danger was specific to the shape. There would have been very little harm to turtles if someone had been dropping hard plastic cubes of plastic in the sea.
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Jul 21, 2018 02:39
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RE: Seafood. I maintain that the developed world needs to sign a strict moratorium on all fishing activity and utilize their considerably military power to patrol and sink any fishing vessels caught within their waters. No mercy, they surrender they still go down with all hands, because at this stage the life of a human is worth considerably less than that of the lowly pollock. It's the only way the fuckers will learn to pick a different profession. 
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Jul 21, 2018 06:03
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THE BEATWEAVER posted:RE: Seafood. That's just loving stupid. Sustainable fishery management is quite possible with proper monitoring and enforcement. If a state doesn't have the political will needed to enact effective fishery management, how do you expect your fantasy scenario is going to come to pass? Hello Sailor fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Jul 21, 2018 |
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Jul 21, 2018 06:10
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There is no such thing as sustainable fishery management at the current level of stock collapse. We either cease all commercial fishing activity for at least a century and kill anyone caught engaging in it, or we do not have fish within our lifetimes.
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Jul 21, 2018 06:59
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Thug Lessons posted:We can't actually though. Again, even if we reduce US plastic waste to zero, that still leaves 99% of plastic inflow into the ocean. The problem is not that impact is too small, but that it doesn't address the causes of plastic pollution while making people feel as though they're making a difference. At best straw bans are a wash: you get less non-biodegradable litter and reduce plastic inflow by a teeny-weeny amount, at the cost of distracting people from the causes of the problem. If everyone quit eating seafood we'd put a sizable dent in the problem. Achieving lofty social preference goals like that requires building social muscle. Bringing base awareness to the problem domain via simple changes that have smaller costs helps build that muscle. Achieving 2C goals is going to require managing social preferences at this point. Most first world emitters that generate most of the waste can make large changes in preferences with the right nudges. I think the divide here is that you see these straw bans as a distraction but I see them as a useful toy case and way to start getting people to think about the impact of their choices.
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Jul 21, 2018 07:54
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THE BEATWEAVER posted:There is no such thing as sustainable fishery management at the current level of stock collapse. We either cease all commercial fishing activity for at least a century and kill anyone caught engaging in it, or we do not have fish within our lifetimes. NOAA oversees US fishery populations in addition to conducting climate research and says that Alaska's programs are working just fine. Sustainable fishery management is part of their state constitution. You also avoided the question. If we can't get developed nations to even adopt sustainable programs, where do you think the political will to enact your boat-sinking fantasy is going to come from?
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Jul 21, 2018 11:53
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Hello Sailor posted:NOAA oversees US fishery populations in addition to conducting climate research and says that Alaska's programs are working just fine. Sustainable fishery management is part of their state constitution. Eco-terrorists in sailboats chasing fishers in open waters.
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Jul 21, 2018 12:08
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Gortarius posted:Eco-terrorists in destroyers chasing fishers in open waters.
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Jul 21, 2018 12:38
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You'd really only need a couple skiffs, sinking a ship isn't as hard as you think
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Jul 21, 2018 12:44
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THE BEATWEAVER posted:There is no such thing as sustainable fishery management at the current level of stock collapse. We either cease all commercial fishing activity for at least a century and kill anyone caught engaging in it, or we do not have fish within our lifetimes. So we either don't have fish in our lifetime OR don't have fish in our lifetime?
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Jul 21, 2018 13:59
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Banning wild caught in severely collapsing fisheries doesn't stop fish farming.
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Jul 21, 2018 14:03
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Congrats you killed all the fisherman wait oops what is this ocean aragonite undersaturation everyone is talking about. I think adapting to the trophic cascade that acidification causes is going to be worse for fish stock than current fishing rates.
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Jul 21, 2018 15:04
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Congrats you killed all the fisherman wait oops what is this ocean aragonite undersaturation everyone is talking about. Bingo, nothin depletes fish stocks like them being unable to eat
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Jul 21, 2018 16:54
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Oklahoma City had a record high yesterday of 109. It's not the record high for any day of the year, which was 113, back in 1936 then tied in 2012, but it's up there - just outside the top 10. However, that's just air temperature. Surfaces exposed to the sun will heat up and get very, very hot. How hot that gets depends on the material and length of exposure. Plants, being rooted in place, can't escape the sun. At what point do we reach temperatures that plants can no longer deal with:
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Jul 21, 2018 17:15
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 central oklahoma is basically ground zero as the old "100th meridian" line moves a little more east every year. edit: if you took that pic yourself i would gtfo now, things are not getting better.
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Jul 21, 2018 19:29
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I know. It's something my dad told us more than a decade ago; something he learned during a government presentation on the future of the state. One thing he's involved in is weatherization of homes, which is generally outreach to poorer households. Replacing seals and insulation is the most cost-effective, then windows. Something a lot of people don't realize is that most heat transfer happens via radiation; yes, conduction is more potent, but air is actually a pretty good insulator - and that's not why your attic gets hot. I came across this awhile back, and now that I'm not traveling constantly for work I need to get some of this stuff - a radiant barrier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhUb80Hhlns It looks kind of silly and I don't think it'll change much on my house, but it's not that expensive compared to the potential benefit over time. If it does help noticeably, then I can actually impact the work he does. Also, while it gets very loving hot in the summer, it can also get pretty cold in the winter. Solar thermal heating is something we could definitely do here in the winter, and it's a drat shame that it isn't more widespread... it's literally just a black box with pipes placed facing the sun with a fan to pull air through. People make that poo poo out of beer cans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XemVuvaOgqg Obviously it doesn't work at night and is probably not as good on cloudy days, but I wonder if a thermal mass could be utilized in conjunction... the way we do heating and air conditioning in the U.S. is pretty insane. That's probably due in part to cheap energy... and a reduction in the need could have a small impact, like painting roofs white. Enough small impacts, and they add up to something a little bigger. Evil_Greven fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 05:18
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The fact that black asphalt roofing, wood shake roofing, or black rubber roofing are still legal to be sold or installed in 2018 is a goddamn travesty.
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Jul 22, 2018 05:22
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The northern part of Sweden is burning, that's normal right http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/07/a-global-heat-wave-has-set-the-arctic-circle-on-fire.html
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Jul 22, 2018 06:28
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THE BEATWEAVER posted:The fact that black asphalt roofing, wood shake roofing, or black rubber roofing are still legal to be sold or installed in 2018 is a goddamn travesty. Metal roof good?
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Jul 22, 2018 14:43
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clay roof tiles for everyone!
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Jul 22, 2018 22:08
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Potato Salad posted:Metal roof good? I don't know why anyone buys tile roofs, galvanised corrugated iron is so good for the job. Is it the noise?
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Jul 22, 2018 23:53
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Ah yes lets hear some hot takes on roofs from people who know literally nothing about them.
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Jul 23, 2018 17:52
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I have a metal roof and it's 30 years old and has some dents but is otherwise fine. Hope this helps!
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Jul 23, 2018 19:47
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Fly to every continent to take pictures of roofs.
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Jul 23, 2018 22:46
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Ah yes lets hear some hot takes on roofs from people who know literally nothing about them. Troika, if you know about roofs, this is literally your golden chance to make a post that isn't total garbage.
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Jul 23, 2018 23:52
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Hello Sailor posted:Fly to every continent to take pictures of roofs. 
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Jul 24, 2018 00:37
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https://twitter.com/postworldnews/status/1021419987905499136?s=21 Planet’s dying Cloud.
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Jul 24, 2018 01:27
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a friend of a friend is on a trip in ireland right now and she keeps posting these pics of emerald green paddys with orange/brown dead patches and its loving gut-punchingly depressing. losing the coral reef on the other end of the plantet is one thing, but loving ireland losing its green?
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Jul 24, 2018 04:32
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OhFunny posted:https://twitter.com/postworldnews/status/1021419987905499136?s=21 dunno what's so weird about that, Texas does that pretty much on the reg
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Jul 24, 2018 04:45
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StabbinHobo posted:a friend of a friend is on a trip in ireland right now and she keeps posting these pics of emerald green paddys with orange/brown dead patches and its loving gut-punchingly depressing. losing the coral reef on the other end of the plantet is one thing, but loving ireland losing its green? Paid denier shills will find themselves attacked by mobs if this goes the way I think it will.
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Jul 24, 2018 04:46
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VideoGameVet posted:Paid denier shills will find themselves attacked by mobs if this goes the way I think it will. Can you unpack what you mean by that? I think I get it but not sure if you have a more specific example in mind.
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Jul 24, 2018 10:21
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Climate change is something that worries me a lot, particularly as someone who loving hates hot weather. Obviously if I could just snap my fingers and fix everything I would but even though I can't that's no reason to just roll over and give up. Sitting around whining about how we're all going to die isn't going to help anyone so my question is: What can I as an individual do to help? I rent, so I can't make any permanent changes to the house so any suggestions about insulation etc don't apply in my case, but I figure if we start putting together information and tips we could maybe make the thread a bit less doomsday cult you know? For example are there things I could do with my garden that would be beneficial?
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Jul 24, 2018 16:14
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