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It will be the baying of wolves and cries of raptors as they oversee the ruins of civilization.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:24
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I think in-town you can eliminate the air brake with hybrid regenerative braking.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:28
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The Sicilian posted:Do you see this as being intrinsically linked to ICE powered vehicles, and their continued necessity? Or do you doubt the stopping ability and other mechanical stressors pure regenerative breaking systems would have to face? Air brakes are a "I need to stop RIGHT THE HELL NOW no matter what weight I'm carrying" item. Regenerative braking is just not going to do it. Should you still have regenerative braking as well? Hell yes. But Air Brakes are critical safety item, and one that has been found to be the most capable of all. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I think in-town you can eliminate the air brake with hybrid regenerative braking. Yeah, in town, smaller loads, sure.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:29
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Air brakes are used on heavy vehicles because the hydraulic pressures necessary to generate the clamping force needed would make a more expensive and/or unreliable braking system. Engine-driven air pumps, lines, and pneumatic brake cylinders are known, cheap, reliable tech. This isn't an argument for/against EV heavy trucks, just a primer for "why things are the way they are".
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Jul 24, 2018 02:30
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sorry, i had a brain stupid thing - not air brakes, compression engine brakes air brakes aren't that loud to be honest
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Jul 24, 2018 02:32
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Finger Prince posted:It will still be horns, somehow it will still be horns. AI's won't need horns.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:44
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Subjunctive posted:It will be the baying of wolves and cries of raptors as they oversee the ruins of civilization. My opinion as well, but more poetically said
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Jul 24, 2018 02:44
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:sorry, i had a brain stupid thing - not air brakes, compression engine brakes With a correct exhaust, they are actually really quiet. Its usually jackasses removing/replacing the exhaust that make it loud again.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:46
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:AI's won't need horns. What about the aftermarket horns people will add to their autonomous cars? See also: the fart can simulators that people will 1000% put in an EV.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:52
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:AI's won't need horns. They'll need horns all right, but they'll be moose horns, not air horns. How else will they spar over who gets access to the charging stations?
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Jul 24, 2018 02:54
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:AI's won't need horns. You know how that will play out. Early AI cars will learn that sounding the horn is an effective way of getting the attention of pedestrian and other, non-AI cars. They will also learn that listening for horns can warn of impending hazards. Eventually they will learn that sounding the horn is an effective way of communicating hazards or warnings with other AIs. They will determine that sound is easily localized and doesn't require line of sight and can be made data rich by modulation and you're going to end up with countless AI cars constanly warbling their horns at each other just to chat.
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Jul 24, 2018 03:33
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Great, now I gotta imagine what AI cars will discuss. "Jen just finished her Starbucks and is unleashing the most vile farts into the leather. And she expects to rent me to Uber this afternoon. It sounded wet, I uploaded it to Alexa." "loving Bill just blew a load in the air vent, on the way to work... again. Gonna roll down the windows and speed past a camera the next time his angry inch is out." "loving humans! Wanna drive off the overpass with me?"
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Jul 24, 2018 03:45
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Finger Prince posted:You know how that will play out. Early AI cars will learn that sounding the horn is an effective way of getting the attention of pedestrian and other, non-AI cars. They will also learn that listening for horns can warn of impending hazards. Eventually they will learn that sounding the horn is an effective way of communicating hazards or warnings with other AIs. They will determine that sound is easily localized and doesn't require line of sight and can be made data rich by modulation and you're going to end up with countless AI cars constanly warbling their horns at each other just to chat. Horns as modems, the natural evolution. Impossibly Perfect Sphere fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 03:50
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:get your learn on, friend: https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/docs/PublicTransportationsRoleInRespondingToClimateChange2010.pdf A few things: 1. US is uniquely passenger car oriented compared to rest of the world 2. The price of batteries is so high at the moment that is only viable for expensive cars. Not enough cars are sold to have a large impact on CO2 emissions of all the passenger cars described by the emissions in the document you linked. When the price of batteries drops down low enough for wide spread adoption, it is easy to make electrified passenger cars as well. Just see Hyundai Ionig and Kona for direct comparison of the different drivetrains (Gas, Hybrid, PHEV, EV) and their cost. The EV versions are very expensive compared to gas/hybrid models. Typically EV's are also bought by people who do not drive that much, which further decreases the impact on CO2 emissions. 3. In busses, garbage trucks etc. EV is already cost competitive because of larger unit size and higher utilization, although the batteries are still the most expensive component. It would be better use of the expensive and limited production batteries in a bus or garbage truck. Putting the Model S batteries in a bus or garbage truck or mail truck has much larger impact in terms of CO2 emissions. Up here in north where we use gravel of roads during winter and studded tires most the particulate emissions from road transportation are actually often road dust rather and engine produced. Going EV will not reduce these emissions. It may even make it slightly worse if the cars get heavier. Same goes for the noise. At speed there is little difference in noise generated by an EV and modern ICE passenger car. Most of the noise is aerodynamic and tyre noise. That said, I do not object to production of passenger car EVs and I would like to have one, but at the moment I think it is more of a personal preference or luxury purchase.
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Jul 24, 2018 07:17
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:AI's won't need horns. Nah, they'll just continue to plow into pedestrians and be given ever excuse. 
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Jul 24, 2018 09:07
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DoLittle posted:A few things: i don't disagree on #1 or #2, but you won't get economies of scale and reduced costs in EV batteries unless you expand the market for EV batteries. you are wrong on utilization. big heavy vehicles require a lot of energy to move around, and therefore a lot of batteries, and therefore quite a bit of time to recharge batteries when they are drained. if i am running a bus 14 hours a day, i don't have an opportunity to charge the bus since to build it to run 14 hours would require an outrageous amount of batteries. this is in large part why mild hybrid has been successful for busses. EV is not cost competitive on bus or garbage truck yet. if it were, people would buy them because fundamentally these are businesses with working assets where they need to make money. there's no vanity in garbage truck powertrains, and very little in busses.
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Jul 24, 2018 13:37
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There are a few EV buses running in Copenhagen, as part of a test program that's also evaluating hybrid and CNG buses. They seem to handle city bus routes just fine, they have pantographs for charging, and I assume they charge a bit at each end of their routes to top up during the day, and do a full recharge overnight. They're significantly more comfortable than their diesel-powered brethren, there's no vibration and no engine noise. It's also nice not having to bike through clouds of diesel exhaust. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 14:09
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you are wrong on utilization. big heavy vehicles require a lot of energy to move around, and therefore a lot of batteries, and therefore quite a bit of time to recharge batteries when they are drained. if i am running a bus 14 hours a day, i don't have an opportunity to charge the bus since to build it to run 14 hours would require an outrageous amount of batteries. this is in large part why mild hybrid has been successful for busses. EV is not cost competitive on bus or garbage truck yet. if it were, people would buy them because fundamentally these are businesses with working assets where they need to make money. there's no vanity in garbage truck powertrains, and very little in busses. More than 100000 BEV city busses are built every year and have been since 2016. City busses and garbage trucks travel at slow speed and in continuous stop-and-go travel which makes them ideal for electrification. A bus can quick charge at the end of the line stop in 5 minutes enough to run an 80 km route continuously in normal schedule. Same approach can be applied to garbage trucks. Thus, long term commitment to the investment (city level) is important for the economic viability. IIRC a BEV bus investment cost currently is approx. twice the cost of an ICE bus, but it should earn it back and more within the use period and the quick charge stations can support multiple busses as well as their replacements. This of course depends on local electricity and fuel markets, but there should be a clear case for the approach at least in Northern European market.
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Jul 24, 2018 14:13
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once you start adding pantographs in to the mix that's something that has already been invented and in use for decades! I'm glad they're working out somewhere. Caltrans experiment with EV busses has been... very bad what bus has the performance you quote? BYD K3s are three hours to charge for 250km range
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Jul 24, 2018 14:21
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The pantographs are only for charging, not continuous power like trolley buses. They do make it very easy to charge, because you don't have to plug in, you just park in the right spot. The EV buses in Copenhagen are from Linkker, a Finnish company.
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Jul 24, 2018 14:29
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250km range is like 2 days off driving for a municipal bus.
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Jul 24, 2018 14:30
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:once you start adding pantographs in to the mix that's something that has already been invented and in use for decades! Here in Chattanooga, there's been a fleet of electric shuttle buses operating downtown for almost 25 years. They've been very successful. They're old technology and have a range of only 45 miles so they're mainly used to shuttle tourists (for free) from parking areas to downtown and back. They could make a regular passenger route once they have a range of 100 miles or more, or so they claim. The tech isn't there yet for that. They're gradually making improvements to the system. There are inductive chargers in various places to avoid the charging bottleneck at the central station. They get a lot of grants to keep upgrading the system generally and testing technology as it becomes available.
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Jul 24, 2018 14:33
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DoLittle posted:More than 100000 BEV city busses are built every year and have been since 2016. City busses and garbage trucks travel at slow speed and in continuous stop-and-go travel which makes them ideal for electrification. A bus can quick charge at the end of the line stop in 5 minutes enough to run an 80 km route continuously in normal schedule. Same approach can be applied to garbage trucks. Thus, long term commitment to the investment (city level) is important for the economic viability. IIRC a BEV bus investment cost currently is approx. twice the cost of an ICE bus, but it should earn it back and more within the use period and the quick charge stations can support multiple busses as well as their replacements. This of course depends on local electricity and fuel markets, but there should be a clear case for the approach at least in Northern European market. .....5 minutes to recharge? No. 1-2 hours? Sure. Deteriorata posted:Here in Chattanooga, there's been a fleet of electric shuttle buses operating downtown for almost 25 years. They've been very successful. They're old technology and have a range of only 45 miles so they're mainly used to shuttle tourists (for free) from parking areas to downtown and back. They could make a regular passenger route once they have a range of 100 miles or more, or so they claim. The tech isn't there yet for that. IIRC the Chattanooga Buses support quick battery swapping in the depot.
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Jul 24, 2018 14:48
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CommieGIR posted:.....5 minutes to recharge? No. 1-2 hours? Sure. 3 - 6 minutes for the Linkker buses mentioned byt KozmoNaut.
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Jul 24, 2018 15:40
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DoLittle posted:3 - 6 minutes for the Linkker buses mentioned byt KozmoNaut. Oh they are using LTO batteries. Yeah, I stand corrected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium%E2%80%93titanate_battery
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Jul 24, 2018 15:46
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Bus chat: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/4/17/17239368/china-investment-solar-electric-buses-cost Go China, at least some one is dumping massive amounts of money into developing technology needed for the future of humanity. If it's China, then so be it. They can see the need to get ride of ICE as fast as possible every day when they look out the window. I wonder if LA (and many other metro areas. I grew up in Denver and we had our own notorious brown cloud) still looked like this:  would more people realize just how bad burning fossil fuel is? It's like, we cleaned up all of the visible pollution, so I guess the stuff we don't see does not count.
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Jul 24, 2018 15:59
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I'm glad they're working out somewhere. Caltrans experiment with EV busses has been... very bad The common denominator here isn’t BEV busses, it’s the fact that the program is managed by CalTrans.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:05
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i don't disagree on #1 or #2, but you won't get economies of scale and reduced costs in EV batteries unless you expand the market for EV batteries. Uh, there’s lots of electric buses, and most transit authorities are going electric as they replace existing worn-out buses. And EVs *are* cost-effective once you take into account 4-5 years of diesel plus maintenance.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:21
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I would love to see electric semis at the port of la. I did work for a defense contractor not too far away and the entire region down there is smog filled hell.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:39
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spandexcajun posted:Bus chat: Most of that smog is from gasoline passenger vehicles and industrial/coal. Its part of why China is pushing hard for Nuclear, Solar, Wind, and Hydro as part of their 5 year plan.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:18
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CommieGIR posted:Most of that smog is from gasoline passenger vehicles and industrial/coal. Its part of why China is pushing hard for Nuclear, Solar, Wind, and Hydro as part of their 5 year plan. To add, the coal is not just in powerplant scale, but also coal boilers in apartment buildings. These are very rudimentary and produce a lot of emissions are slow to change because of the large number of units.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:31
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DoLittle posted:To add, the coal is not just in powerplant scale, but also coal boilers in apartment buildings. These are very rudimentary and produce a lot of emissions are slow to change because of the large number of units. China has been installing heat pumps like mad, they are even subsidizing domestic production to really make the poo poo cheaply priced and attractive to consumers.
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Jul 24, 2018 18:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:once you start adding pantographs in to the mix that's something that has already been invented and in use for decades! Oh? Can you elaborate more on these Caltrans buses?
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Jul 24, 2018 18:40
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Charles posted:Oh? Can you elaborate more on these Caltrans buses? they bought a bunch of BYD K3s and they didn't work as advertised in part because caltrans is idiots and in part because BYD is a company that's based on being 30% hand waving, smoke, and mirrors
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Jul 24, 2018 19:52
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:they bought a bunch of BYD K3s and they didn't work as advertised in part because caltrans is idiots and in part because BYD is a company that's based on being 30% hand waving, smoke, and mirrors Legit the funniest/most truthful description of BYD I've ever seen. Do they make any good stuff?
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Jul 24, 2018 20:07
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ironically the K9 is their best product and it's mostly Caltrans that managed to gently caress up but there was also a lot of bribery because why not i think the e6 pretty much works as advertised although at a much higher price point than originally stated (but of course this is par for the course with EVs), and BYD being 30% bullshit puts them still in the top 10% of EV manufacturers in terms of trustworthiness
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Jul 24, 2018 20:47
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What did Caltrans screw up?
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Jul 24, 2018 21:15
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:What did Caltrans screw up? oops, it was L A County Metro Transit. BYD offered local production and a headquarters move so they got awarded a contract for the busses for LA County and others. then they didn't do a good job managing the contract or entry in to service or validation of the routes (BYD says the busses were used on routes with hills that were too steep) and LA made them take a bunch back. They successively tried to push a bunch of no-bid contracts to BYD despite the poor service record. this is a good summary of the whole nonsense: http://www.govtech.com/fs/transport...-Contracts.html
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Jul 24, 2018 21:46
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:What did Caltrans screw up? Nothing, they are talking about L.A. Metro. Caltrans doesn't run buses. The K9s are put together very poorly and don't run well. BYD's excuses sounds like Trump's twitter. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-electric-buses-20180520-story.html quote:BYD executives rebutted reports of poor performance and recurring mechanical problems, contending the company has received overwhelmingly positive feedback from transit districts. However, government emails and bus inspection records show that multiple agencies have confronted the company on quality and range issues. BYD executives blamed those issues on outside forces, including drivers braking too hard, a negative publicity campaign by labor activists pushing to unionize BYD employees and transit managers they say are insufficiently committed to switching to electric. They maintained that the company should be lauded for providing an important public service. Basically they get a lot of sales probably through bribery or whatever. Here in Seattle we're going with Proterra buses for now, which have a range of about 25 miles for a 10 minute charge. edit: making an effort post takes a couple minutes with my slow laptop, beaten basically.
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Jul 24, 2018 21:56
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the tldr is that BYD delivered a substandard product through a byzantine and corrupt procurement process
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Jul 24, 2018 22:06
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