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if literally every single business entity was a co-op, that would probably be closer to anarcho-syndicalism... which honesty would be a lot better than what we got now
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:00 |
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# ? May 9, 2024 09:31 |
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In conclusion: Co-ops are better than traditional businesses Co-ops operate according to democratic ideals, within a capitalist system Co-ops aren't socialist Start a drat co-op if you want to, help someone else start a co-op if they want to, and feel good doing it because its still a material improvement over present day
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:02 |
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quote:And as I talked about above, I'm getting a similar vibe that you think co-ops are something different than capitalist businesses... they are different than capitalist businesses, but socialism is an economic system and mode of production, so clearly a single business isn't "socialism"
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:04 |
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Reminder that slavery, serfdom and subsistence agriculture all exist this very second but we still exist under a capitalist system. It's important to remember that when arguing what a co-op is.Karl Barks posted:if literally every single business entity was a co-op, that would probably be closer to anarcho-syndicalism... which honesty would be a lot better than what we got now Well yes but the political dimension beyond the workplace is very important as well. The co-ops in industries which generate a shitload of income above the average and so give their workers high quality of life as well as having cash to spare would inevitably seek to capture whatever political parties existed with a company or industry political fund and so you'd still have poorer industries and workers getting the screws tightened
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:04 |
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capitalism is capitalist ownership of the means of production for profit. not sure how a worker cooperative, where the means of production are owned and democratically run by the workers, can be considered capitalist.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:05 |
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Infernot posted:and the workers not partaking much in collective action. This is definitely wrong, at least wrt the teachers unions. The one in West Virginia went wildcat and Oklahoma threatened to do the same before getting snuffed out by the union organizers.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:05 |
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:capitalism is capitalist ownership of the means of production for profit. not sure how a worker cooperative, where the means of production are owned and democratically run by the workers, can be considered capitalist. Postoyevsky posted:they are different than capitalist businesses, but socialism is an economic system and mode of production, so clearly a single business isn't "socialism"
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:06 |
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Jon Joe posted:In conclusion: coops are socialist. they are not socialism.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:07 |
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I like your socialism, but I do not like your coops. They are so unlike your socialism.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:09 |
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namesake posted:Well yes but the political dimension beyond the workplace is very important as well. The co-ops in industries which generate a shitload of income above the average and so give their workers high quality of life as well as having cash to spare would inevitably seek to capture whatever political parties existed with a company or industry political fund and so you'd still have poorer industries and workers getting the screws tightened yeah, which is most likely why you would still need a state apparatus. I'm trying to paint broad strokes here... Infernot posted:It blew my mind that you can have a multi-billion dollar corporations ran by workers in capitalism. Also, previously you said that co-ops are the most likely avenue for workers to organize themselves "to do labour to make all the things that we need and and want to do" which I assume the other person who posted this original phrase you responded to, is referring to socialism. So it's not a leap to say you probably think co-operatives are "socialistic" or some other meaningless term and different somehow from capitalism. I feel like you're being combative for some reason, and reading more into what I'm saying than is implied. The global system is capitalism, and yes we pretty much all live within those rules. but is a kibbutz, for example, a capitalist institution? I'm not sure it is, it just operates within a larger capitalist system. I consider myself a socialist, yet I still sell my labor to capital!
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:10 |
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Postoyevsky posted:they are different than capitalist businesses, but socialism is an economic system and mode of production, so clearly a single business isn't "socialism" They're different only in organization, they still operate and exist just the same as any other business in capitalism. Yes, I'd hope we all know that but the way some people are treating cooperatives is like they're something more than they are. Which, is why I said that someone might more realistically pull a term like "socialistic" out of their rear end to describe these businesses. Hell, people are sitting here jerking off to the term "democratic" in reference to them because democracy is somehow going to make the worker's existence fundamentally different in capitalism? No one's arguing that they don't have higher wages and better benefits like what a union does, but the worker's suffering in capitalism isn't whether the business has a boss or not.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:11 |
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Infernot posted:They're different only in organization, they still operate and exist just the same as any other business in capitalism. Yes, I'd hope we all know that but the way some people are treating cooperatives is like they're something more than they are. Which, is why I said that someone might more realistically pull a term like "socialistic" out of their rear end to describe these businesses. Hell, people are sitting here jerking off to the term "democratic" in reference to them because democracy is somehow going to make the worker's existence fundamentally different in capitalism? No one's arguing that they don't have higher wages and better benefits like what a union does, but the worker's suffering in capitalism isn't whether the business has a boss or not. except none of this is right
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:13 |
"let people improve their material conditions!" I yell, as I start a suicide net producing cooperative so that i can feed my family
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:14 |
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i mean how far out does that go, is cuba not socialist because it participates in global trade?
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:15 |
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I support anyone who wants to start a co-op and also that it is socialist friendly to start a co-op, but I'm not going to call a co-op socialist unless you're willing to permiss all organizations with direct democracy as socialist, including your local book club where you meet once a month to embarassingly admit you only got half-way through and then democratively agree to do it again with a different book. That this becomes socialist once you introduce a profit motive is, to me, absurd.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:18 |
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Karl Barks posted:i mean how far out does that go, is cuba not socialist because it participates in global trade? Well we had a seemingly 20 page long discussion about China and its socialist character (or lack thereof), and it devolved into 3 people arguing and none of them budging or saying anything worthwhile besides to prove one another wrong on small points the others made. As a member of the spooky spectre cooperative, I democratically put my vote towards us not starting this discussion.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:22 |
Jon Joe posted:I support anyone who wants to start a co-op and also that it is socialist friendly to start a co-op, but I'm not going to call a co-op socialist unless you're willing to permiss all organizations with direct democracy as socialist, including your local book club where you meet once a month to embarassingly admit you only got half-way through and then democratively agree to do it again with a different book. That this becomes socialist once you introduce a profit motive is, to me, absurd.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:22 |
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Jon Joe posted:I support anyone who wants to start a co-op and also that it is socialist friendly to start a co-op, but I'm not going to call a co-op socialist unless you're willing to permiss all organizations with direct democracy as socialist, including your local book club where you meet once a month to embarassingly admit you only got half-way through and then democratively agree to do it again with a different book. That this becomes socialist once you introduce a profit motive is, to me, absurd. a book club is not the means of production
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:23 |
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Karl Barks posted:yeah, which is most likely why you would still need a state apparatus. I'm trying to paint broad strokes here... the socialist history of kibbutzim is largely just history, but they still--as of 2001, mind you--were significantly more cooperative than life in, say, america. modelling socialist communities after the kibbutzim, while learning from their mistakes, is certainly an idea worth considering. hell, id probably move back if it werent for all the fascism in the country at large, since id rather not have to brutalize palestinian children for three years.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:24 |
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:cool but coops arent capitalist communal hunter-gather societies gave birth to the first Captains of Industry, powerful capitalists from a forgotten age
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:25 |
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Hostess Snack Cake posted:the socialist history of kibbutzim is largely just history, but they still--as of 2001, mind you--were significantly more cooperative than life in, say, america. modelling socialist communities after the kibbutzim, while learning from their mistakes, is certainly an idea worth considering. hell, id probably move back if it werent for all the fascism in the country at large, since id rather not have to brutalize palestinian children for three years. lol after I wrote that post I was like... hmm maybe kibbutz wasn't the best example
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:25 |
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Jon Joe posted:In conclusion: wrong. co-ops are the final form of socialism (communism is a degenerate intermediate form)
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:27 |
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"co-ops are the only thing we need for big C Communism, baby" - josef stalin
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:30 |
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GalacticAcid posted:I like your socialism, but I do not like your coops. They are so unlike your socialism. if you like your socialism, you can keep it
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:31 |
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Karl Barks posted:"co-ops are the only thing we need for big C Communism, baby" - josef stalin NKVD co-ops
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:40 |
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Dreddout posted:This is definitely wrong, at least wrt the teachers unions. The one in West Virginia went wildcat and Oklahoma threatened to do the same before getting snuffed out by the union organizers. The WVA teachers strike wasn't "wildcat," this is a really overused and poorly misunderstood thing. It wasn't even technically a strike, because public employees in WVA can't legally strike. It was a walkout, which is technically a political protest against the state government, and directly involved various union and "non-union" unions, like the NEA. The various school districts had to get permission from their local school boards for the walkouts, lol. Not only that, it definitely wasn't a wildcat considering the various unions there all worked together for months to set up strike funds and were organizing for the 'walkout' for a long rear end time in advance. In Oklahoma, it wasn't "snuffed out by union organizers" either. I'm not sure where that comes from. The strike ended after they won salary and budgetary increases. It was prompted, initially, by a Facebook group that was set up by a local shop steward. The problems with the Oklahoma strike (and why it couldn't sustain itself for longer) was that they hadn't done the organizing work in advance, because it was relatively spontaneous, and didn't have robust strike funds or logistical work done in advance. A lot of the rhetoric around labor is still so tainted by reactionary messaging. There's still this hilarious mindset among even leftist people that the "bad union fat cat leadership" are out there trying to stymie the Rank-and-File© from doing good work, when in actuality strikes have to be voted on by the membership, and the "leadership" running strikes are often rank-and-file elected, like shop stewards.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:43 |
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:a book club is not the means of production Neither is a co-op unless the workers have the option to produce for the public good, rather than profit.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:43 |
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I'm gay
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:45 |
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an actual dog posted:I'm gay Well at least you own that! Jon Joe posted:Neither is a co-op unless the workers have the option to produce for the public good, rather than profit. ...wut?
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:46 |
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Jon Joe posted:Neither is a co-op unless the workers have the option to produce for the public good, rather than profit.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:48 |
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Jon Joe posted:Neither is a co-op unless the workers have the option to produce for the public good, rather than profit. what? means of production when owned by capitalists for profit are still means of production dude
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:49 |
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Sorry I was inserting "ownership of" to Sheng-Ji Yang's statement in my head there.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 21:50 |
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I give myself to Satan in apology
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 22:04 |
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Looks like someone needs to Lay Down The Law:
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 22:45 |
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mods please go back the last five pages and edit all coops to cops
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 22:47 |
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whats that quote from orwell or some other guy about the intellectual having a contrived self defeating notion of what socialism is and the actual workers supporting socialism defining it as "my life being less awful"
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 22:51 |
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:a book club is not the means of production production is the friends we meet along the way.
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 22:55 |
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Venom Snake posted:whats that quote from orwell or some other guy about the intellectual having a contrived self defeating notion of what socialism is and the actual workers supporting socialism defining it as "my life being less awful" "Your life, better" would make a good slogan imo
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 22:56 |
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https://twitter.com/hughhowey/status/1021145286524243970?s=19
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# ? Jul 26, 2018 23:21 |
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# ? May 9, 2024 09:31 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMY5p3kDZnk
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# ? Jul 27, 2018 00:09 |