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why don't you morans charge your phones at night
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Jul 30, 2018 14:49
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if the phone is at 100% already why would you just leave it plugged in all night
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Jul 30, 2018 15:04
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Blue Train posted:if the phone is at 100% already why would you just leave it plugged in all night So you don't lose 15 percent.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:11
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Blue Train posted:if the phone is at 100% already why would you just leave it plugged in all night Because then your phone doesn't drain at all overnight? With the advent of wireless charging why wouldn't I just leave it on my wireless pad when i go to sleep? I don't understand how this is confusing.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:11
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vyst posted:Because then your phone doesn't drain at all overnight? With the advent of wireless charging why wouldn't I just leave it on my wireless pad when i go to sleep? I think people still think they're damaging their battery by doing that, or something.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:12
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Lol if you don't have your phone set to wake you when it's done charging so you can unplug it and start the day at 85%.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:23
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Blue Train posted:if the phone is at 100% already why would you just leave it plugged in all night I don't wake up at 1 am just to unplug my phone.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:34
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LastInLine posted:Well I went from 100% to 95% which is way more reasonable and about what I've come to expect. My Nexus 5 was about the same level of efficiency when idle (though it got worse with time). 15% over eight hours doing nothing is not good at all and certainly not for a new phone with a new battery. With Doze as aggressive as it is now I don't even see how it's possible.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:36
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My PXL2XL loses 2-3% overnight, wifi on. Which doesn't matter because it's almost always plugged in and charging instead of draining.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:38
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CLAM DOWN posted:I think people still think they're damaging their battery by doing that, or something. Let's go  Those people aren't completely wrong. The longer time your phone spends at 100%, the faster the battery wears down. That is just the nature of lithium batteries. Nope, the manufacturer hasn't done anything or adjusted anything that prevents this laws-of-chemistry fact. But the phone sets a soft 100% limit lower than the theoretical max 100% of the lithium cell, which slows down the wear. The soft 100% limit is still a pretty high state of charge though, because if the soft limit was too low, the usable capacity wouldn't be much compared to the physical size of the battery. Same is true for laptops, which often stay plugged in all the time. Both my current and previous laptops had software options for limiting the battery charge (one to 80%, one to 60%) to prolong its life. Electric cars have this as well. There is nothing about phone batteries that doesn't hold true just the same, they just have their corporate reasons for not including such features. And in both laptops and electric cars, different manufacturers use different specs and margins, so staying at 100% causes less wear on unit A than it does on unit B. If you unplug the phone as soon as it reaches 100%, or every now and then unplug before 100% or have a janitor alert, your phone will spend a tiny fraction of its life at peak charge. If you charge overnight, it will spend 1/3 of its life at full charge. This will definitely make the battery wear out faster. But how much faster will it wear out? Maybe not fast enough for you to notice or care before you swap or break it. Or maybe you will. Who cares it's just a phone.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:44
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Ola posted:Who cares it's just a phone. You're insane, it's just this.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:47
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would 100% rather start my day with a full battery and _possibly_ wear the battery slightly faster than worry about getting through my day or whatever.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:55
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CLAM DOWN posted:You're insane, it's just this. I am not insane for knowing stuff about lithium batteries in TYOOL 2018.
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Jul 30, 2018 15:55
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https://www.businessinsider.com/safe-charge-smartphone-overnight-2017-8
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Jul 30, 2018 16:13
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Ola posted:Let's go This is all true, but there's a spectrum of possibilities hidden in the part I bolded. Reality is on the end of that spectrum where I'm completely comfortable saying there's nothing being damaged by leaving your phone plugged in much like I'm comfortable in saying making this post didn't waste any of my time. I mean, sure it did in some literal nerd sense, but "wasting" 3 minutes of time is basically not wasting any time at all. Sure, you've lowered the maximum useful life of your phone battery by 3 charges. Big whoop.
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Jul 30, 2018 16:35
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Look you can charge your phone overnight as long as it isn't a note 7
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Jul 30, 2018 16:47
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Ola posted:I am not insane for knowing stuff about lithium batteries in TYOOL 2018. No, but it's ridiculous to apply that to phones. They have hidden software controls that keep you from loving up the battery quickly, nitpicking over tiny optimizations will only cause the user unnecessary mental tax. 99.99% of the wear on a battery will be the normal charge cycles that everyone puts them through. Discharge through the day, charge at night. Worrying about doing a full discharge before charging, or only charging to 80%, or not using the device while it's plugged in, etc. are all optimizations that theoretically will improve the life of a Li battery over the course of years. But if you do all of those things religiously you'll have like 1% more effective battery capacity after 2 years vs someone who does none of them. It's not worth it in even the slightest sense.
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Jul 30, 2018 16:53
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Tunga posted:Is this on wi-fi or mobile data? Whatever standard behavior is for a Pixel. I think it drops wifi fairly aggressively? Wifi was definitely turned on (along with Bluetooth and everything else) but being that I can't tell you much. Only activity overnight was getting another survey but I didn't touch the phone until the eight hours had passed.
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Jul 30, 2018 16:59
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LastInLine posted:Whatever standard behavior is for a Pixel. I think it drops wifi fairly aggressively? Wifi was definitely turned on (along with Bluetooth and everything else) but being that I can't tell you much. So 5% over night on wi-fi sounds entirely reasonable, yes. But 15% overnight on mobile data seems equally normal, unless things have changed a lot recently. It's possible that Dose makes this effect less impactful.
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Jul 30, 2018 17:46
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Taffer posted:No, but it's ridiculous to apply that to phones. They have hidden software controls that keep you from loving up the battery quickly, nitpicking over tiny optimizations will only cause the user unnecessary mental tax. This is a good and correct post. I will never recommend janitoring your phone anymore, maybe I'm just an old man now but it's not worth the mental tax as said.
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Jul 30, 2018 17:57
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I totally get this thread's sentiment of "don't janitor your phone" but it's something else to shut your eyes and ears over something that's useful knowledge of technology, which this forum has millions of discussions about. Lithium batteries are in everything after all. After two years of use, there will be a significant reduction in the battery capacity of a phone that spent 1/3 of its life at 100%. Not 1% or 3 charges, but perhaps 20%. It's just that you might not give a significant poo poo. That's the right internet advice to give in an internet advice giving thread, not that there is no degradation at all. You are not forced to become an ultra janitor just because you know this fact, and you certainly don't have to deny those facts in order to live comfortably with whatever phone habits suit you the best. I put my plastic food processor bowl in the dishwasher because no loving way am I washing it by hand, but I can't honestly tell someone that the dishwasher does not significantly degrade plastic over time. My habit of charging in the living room every 2nd evening or so is easier than charging at night. There isn't a plug near my bed, there is one right next to my sofa. I'm not "insane" or "ridiculous" for not sticking to overnight charging advice. I would be an idiot to follow it when it's less practical for me, improved battery wear is a comforting nerd bonus. I am not mentally taxed in the least. Your own personal habits might not apply to everyone and it certainly hasn't got anything to do with how the technology actually works. By the way, that thing about discharging completely before you charge is not a thing at all with lithium batteries, it's stuck around from the NiMH-days, so feel free to completely ignore that one. Kyle Wiens says "It's all about cycle count", and that's not correct. Peak voltage matters, charging voltage matters, temperature matters, time at highest or lowest state of charge matters. To the battery health, not necessarily to your life. Ola fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jul 30, 2018 |
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Jul 30, 2018 18:10
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Ola posted:After two years of use, there will be a significant reduction in the battery capacity of a phone that spent 1/3 of its life at 100%. Not 1% or 3 charges, but perhaps 20%. I...literally do not believe this. Do you have a source for this? Every study I've read on the matter has not come up with anything close to that.
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Jul 30, 2018 18:24
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Thermopyle posted:I...literally do not believe this. quote:Lithium-ion suffers from stress when exposed to heat, so does keeping a cell at a high charge voltage. A battery dwelling above 30°C (86°F) is considered elevated temperature and for most Li-ion a voltage above 4.10V/cell is deemed as high voltage. Exposing the battery to high temperature and dwelling in a full state-of-charge for an extended time can be more stressful than cycling. Table 3 demonstrates capacity loss as a function of temperature and SoC.  http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries I think it's based in large part on this: https://www.researchgate.net/public...based_on_LiCoO2 quote:High charge cut-off voltages and a long float-charge period at 4.2 V or above have the most severe effects on cycle-life. I don't have access beyond the abstract. e: I should add I have never seen any studies that doesn't agree with this and all automotive applications, the ones that have the most to lose on not being up front with it, have appropriate recommendations or settings. Zero motorcycles had to backtrack when their 100% storage advice caused high wear. Ola fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 30, 2018 |
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Jul 30, 2018 18:42
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Ola posted:
But that doesn't really or necessarily mean much for what we're talking about. Do phones keep their cells at that high a charge? Whats the temperature like? How does cell density affect it? Does the fact that phone batteries are different technology than automotive batteries have an effect? I could go on with a hundred other plausible and reasonable confounding factors.
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Jul 30, 2018 18:59
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The chart kind of proves the point. There's an additional 16% degradation at 25c if a battery is stored at 100%. But, really, you are only looking at 1/3rd to 1/4th that based on charging while sleeping. So, really, 5% per year on the high end assuming that the manufacturer has no capacity headroom to blunt that loss. Also, putting a battery in storage at 100% isn't quite the same as a charging phone. Once 100% is reached, the charging lets the phone drain down below 100% before starting charging again. The state of charge is still high, but not 100%. So, the impact is lessened a bit more. So, really, you are looking at <5% additional loss per year over keeping your phone near 50% most of the time. But (using telemarketer voice) that's not all folks! Keeping you phone in a lower state of charge will invoke higher charge rates when you do plug it in. That leads to higher battery temps which also lower life. So, if you are subscribing to the lower state of charge theory for battery life, I hope you are also using a 500mah charger with the device too so that it doesn't get warm while charging.
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Jul 30, 2018 19:04
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So, I'll readily admit I'm not very knowledgeable but I don't think most cell phones are kept at 100% for a year straight. How does that table scale in terms of real world use? If my phone spends ~3 hours a night at 100%, or a total of 1095 hours per year at full, does that mean I'm getting ~12.5% of the wear that table says, meaning I'd expect to lose ~2.5% capacity per year from idling?
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Jul 30, 2018 19:05
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Tunga posted:So 5% over night on wi-fi sounds entirely reasonable, yes. But 15% overnight on mobile data seems equally normal, unless things have changed a lot recently. It's possible that Dose makes this effect less impactful. My understanding is the opposite, that phones aggressively switch to mobile data when idle on wifi because that's preferable. It's certain that it works that way at least, as you can't even use connection to wifi as a reliable presence indicator for home automation as they drop off wifi constantly. I know my Pixel does for a fact and I'd suspect it's the same for any other device. I still think if you're losing 2% per hour with the phone asleep then something's wrong regardless of connection type. I'd be interested in the op trying without randomly turning off poo poo but I still say 15% over eight hours is bad.
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Jul 30, 2018 19:05
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Thermopyle posted:But that doesn't really or necessarily mean much for what we're talking about. It means exactly the thing we are talking about. Keeping a lithium ion cell at high voltage degrades it faster than at a lower voltage. Therefore, charging to 100% and letting it begin its normal idle discharge leads to a longer battery life than keeping it at 100%. What's the temperature in your bedroom? Well, if it's somewhere between 0 and 60 degrees Celsius, as it is in mine, the effect will be similar. Also the phone is usually hotter than ambient. The exact same chemistry is at work in a Nissan Leaf as in a Samsung Galaxy, down to the prismatic cell configuration. If cell phone batteries somehow didn't degrade, they would use those in cars. Phones often have more aggressive settings than car batteries, i.e. higher cell voltage. Perhaps because useful battery life when the phone is new matters a whole bunch more than battery life. Here's someone saying the S7 has a 4.35V https://qnovo.com/90-charging-galaxy-s7/ The Nissan Leaf has 4.2. Also, the losses in that chart are from an experiment testing only storage at a constant state of charge and temperature. They compound with fast charging (which I use) and other wearing factors. It's entirely fair to say that it's small enough that it doesn't matter, it's just not right to say that it's next to nothing.
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Jul 30, 2018 19:14
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what if I charge my phone in the freezer every night, would that help? need a bedside dock/refrigerator
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Jul 30, 2018 19:16
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Ola posted:It's entirely fair to say that it's small enough that it doesn't matter, it's just not right to say that it's next to nothing. Again, you haven't demonstrated this.
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Jul 30, 2018 19:25
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A phone is a disposable device that you replace every 2 years, WHO CARES
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Jul 30, 2018 19:27
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Peachfart posted:A phone is a disposable device that you replace every 2 years, WHO CARES Yes, no one is arguing about that and everyone has granted that point.
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Jul 30, 2018 19:33
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Thermopyle posted:Again, you haven't demonstrated this. Yes I have, more than enough, quotes and links pertaining specifically to the exact situation in the exact chemistry. I won't work any harder to convince you though. I've already spent more than a year's worth of plugging/unplugging time.
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Jul 30, 2018 19:34
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LastInLine posted:I still think if you're losing 2% per hour with the phone asleep then something's wrong regardless of connection type. I'd be interested in the op trying without randomly turning off poo poo but I still say 15% over eight hours is bad. Even if he wants to turn off stuff he'd be better off doing auto sync and even then doze should handle it in the first place, seconding the suggestion that op do nothing and see what happpens
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Jul 30, 2018 19:48
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It sort of all boils down to the fact that we now have devices that could technically last 4-5 years at this point, but with the move to non user replaceable batteries, now we are stuck talking about their life, and the inevitable fallout from random early shutdowns and inability to make it through a day like it once could. Sure you can get the battery replaced, but with all the adhesive you have to go through on most phones to get it, it never goes back together quite like it did at the factory. I would easily take having a replaceable battery so I could give less of a crap how I treat it over say 100% waterproofing since I never plan to take my phone for a swim and have yet to loose one to water damage. (I have lost a Touch Pro in a lake of water once, but water protection wouldn't save it, and to it's credit, it did ring for about 30 minutes after I lost it). Really the fact that a $1000 phone is supposed to be a disposable device in today's age is pretty freaking dumb.
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Jul 30, 2018 19:54
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Ola posted:Yes I have, more than enough, quotes and links pertaining specifically to the exact situation in the exact chemistry. This isn't what you did, but if you can't respond to any of the criticisms of what you've provided then that's OK.
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Jul 30, 2018 19:58
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All that nerdmath tells me is that it's not a big drat deal if I charge my phone overnight because in real world usage I'll never know if it's my battery or a lovely android app draining my battery. Quote this if you agree.
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Jul 30, 2018 20:01
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EdEddnEddy posted:Really the fact that a $1000 phone is supposed to be a disposable device in today's age is pretty freaking dumb.
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Jul 30, 2018 20:03
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That's why you buy a $200-$300 Nokia, Huawei, Xiaomi, Motorola, etc. Spending that much on a fragile device makes no sense to me. Especially with 3 kids at home.
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Jul 30, 2018 20:08
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EdEddnEddy posted:
This. Planned obsolescence and short software support life is scummy/lazy as gently caress and should be punishable by law. But lol @ the idea of the US government restricting a large corporation.
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Jul 30, 2018 20:10
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