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I think it's that he was spiritully weak after having his body killed at the end of the second age, and took a long long time to recover. Once he was recovered enough to start being active again, he took residence in Dol Guldur and started working on his plans to gather armies, rebuild Barad-Dur and reinhabit Mordor. The white council attacking Dol Guldur provided the timing to finally make the move.
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Jul 30, 2018 23:53
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Data Graham posted:Tangentially — this may be a very dumb question and I'm likely forgetting something super obvious, but why did Sauron suddenly decide that now's the time to send out his armies and shadows and attempt to defeat the West once and for all? What's the catalyst of his attack? Forgive me if this isn't well-supported by the text, but: 1. Gollum goes to Mordor, gets tortured into revealing that he had possessed the Ring up until relatively recently 2. Sauron sends out the Ringwraiths to get the ring back from the Bagginses 3. Ringwraiths pursue Frodo to Rivendell 4. Sauron now knows the Ring is in Rivendell. By his nature, he expects his enemies will now attempt to use the ring to defeat him 5. (this is where I infer the most) He attacks Gondor, being the biggest threat and a sensible destination for the Ring, hoping to beat them before they can use the Ring to build up their own power. Edit: also, even if he thinks it goes to Lórien or stays in Rivendell with the Elves rather than sending it to Gondor, he wouldn't want to extend himself all the way up to attack them while leaving Gondor right there on his doorstep / on the flank of his armies Pham Nuwen fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Jul 30, 2018 |
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Jul 30, 2018 23:53
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There are two things that happened. One was the White Council driving him from Dol Guldor, which revealed his identity. While ostensibly time is on Sauron's side, in reality if he waits too long the rivalries and conflicts within his forces could give the west a chance to strike back. So once he's revealed, the clock is ticking until a potential crisis puts his empire at risk. Remember that without the ring he really can't use his will to completely dominate his forces like Morgoth used to. The second thing that happens is that he captures Gollum. Gollum reveals that the ring is now active again. If someone powerful got ahold of it, they could turn his own power against him. So he decides to go for broke right now rather than wait for somone to use the power of the ring to turn his own armies against him.
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Jul 30, 2018 23:56
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Pham Nuwen posted:Forgive me if this isn't well-supported by the text, but: See, if Sauron is only deciding it's time for war once Frodo gets to Rivendell — in other words, he considers it a defensive war against an incoming attack by the White Council — doesn't that give him almost zero time to build up an army and ready his attack? I thought the text and the appendices went into detail about how he was strengthening his forces in secret for years prior to the War of the Ring. It always felt to me like the War was a long-planned thing, something he intended as far back as Dol Guldur, and maybe getting driven out of there was provocation enough for him to decide to go for broke and make an all-or-nothing play. In which case the timing of Gollum's news and the surfacing of the Ring in the Shire is just coincidental. None of which is very satisfying to me.
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Jul 31, 2018 00:02
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I think he was always planning to attack soon, but to an immortal being waiting an extra century to get a half dozen more armies on his side isn't a big deal. Once he realizes the ring has been found he updates his time table appropriately, and when he realizes that gandalf and elrond know about it, that means that the time to attack is now. Capturing Gollum gave him the kick in the butt to be ready to go at any time.
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Jul 31, 2018 00:06
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Sauron has been preparing military campaigns against Gondor for years, long before the Ring ever came to light. This is probably about half sensible strategic concern and about half enduring bitterness towards the Dúnedain. We don’t get enough data to see whether prior campaigns (like that against the steward Boromir in the 25th century) had the total ruin of Gondor as an objective, but you’d have to assume Sauron would have taken that if he could get it. The specific catalyst for a strike on Minas Tirith at the time that he actually makes it in the book, though, is his misreading of the conclusion of the war in Rohan. Because of Pippin’s dumbassery with the palantir (March 5), Sauron comes to the incorrect conclusion that Saruman has seized the ringbearer and the ring. He responds with (maybe feigned) confidence and the promise that he will send a wraith to Isengard to claim his ring. But the next thing he sees in the Orthanc Stone is Elessar challenging him for dominion of Middle-earth (March 6 i think). Sauron now assumes that Saruman has been destroyed and the ring seized by Isildur’s heir, so moves immediately to strike Gondor before Elessar can consolidate power there to resist him, sending two armies forth from the Morannon and Minas Morgul on the 10th (dawnless day). e: all that said, the Tale of Years makes clear that Sauron had been actively pursuing a more aggressive policy towards Gondor for generations by this point. He rebuilds Barad-dur and reoccupies Dol Guldur in 2951 (ten years after Hobbit), depopulates Ithilien in 2954, fights a significant proxy war with Thorongil/Gondor over Umbar some time around the 80s(?), makes his secret alliance with Saruman around 3000. By 3017 “strange wayfarers” begin to be seen about the Shire (you could interpret these as either Rangers or just displaced persons from the south) and it is widely discussed that Mordor is growing in power, orcs are multiplying, etc. skasion fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 00:08
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Now that I dig. That's the schemes and movements of a humanlike person just muddling through on imperfect information, making it up as he goes along, taking full advantage of all the resources he has available but certainly not just playing the role of some kind of implacable force of nature. That also deals with my concern that if Sauron's attack only made sense to him in balance-of-power terms if he had the Ring in his possession, why would he press forward with the Dawnless Day while Frodo and Sam were still mucking around in Ithilien? Answer, because he didn't have a choice; his hasty stroke did pretty much go astray. (The other end of the narrative spectrum from this kind of device, by the way, that I think tends to work is if the armageddon event is predicated upon some kind of act-of-god or prophecy beyond the control of anybody in the story, like if the planets all align once every 10,000 years and that always brings with it an age of terror and war, or something like that—something nobody can ignore or fend off. But it kinda has to be one extreme or another, I think; either a realistic human reason to jump into war, or a totally otherworldly and ineffable reason. If it's just that the Dark Lord happens to choose to be a particular rear end in a top hat in the months right after we join Our Heroes on their adventure, that feels kinda hollow to me.)
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Jul 31, 2018 00:21
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I don't think it's explicit but your inference that his original plan was to find the ring and then attack (and in the meantime just build up his armies) seems like a good one, and the calculus only changed from that when he inferred that the ring was in enemy hands (as opposed to Bilbo's essentially-neutral hands)
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Jul 31, 2018 00:25
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skasion posted:Sauron has been preparing military campaigns against Gondor for years, long before the Ring ever came to light. This is probably about half sensible strategic concern and about half enduring bitterness towards the Dúnedain. We don’t get enough data to see whether prior campaigns (like that against the steward Boromir in the 25th century) had the total ruin of Gondor as an objective, but you’d have to assume Sauron would have taken that if he could get it. Also strategically Sauron is so powerful at this point that he can afford to lose a battle against Gondor. So yes he attacks sooner than he might have liked because Aragorn spooks him, but he also weighs (correctly) the fact that he has enough armies in reserve to be able to do it again even if the attack fails. The ring being found is actually a huge boon for the people of Middle Earth because while its potential capture by Sauron would seal their doom it was also inevitable that he would have won the war had the ring not been found. Because even without it, his reach and his armies were strong enough that Gondor et al would eventually lose unless the ring was destroyed. But yeah Gondor/Mordor have been warring for years. Actually, there's a cool story (in the Appendix of LOTR or maybe the Silmarillion, I forget which) about how the Witch King takes up residence in Minas Morgul before Sauron has openly declared himself again (I think) and he basically sets up shop there and starts relentlessly poo poo talking the last king of Gondor, Eärnur and challenges him to single combat. Eärnur had fought the Witch King years earlier in Fornost (a Northern kingdom) but his horse panicked and he wasn't able to finish him off. Also at that battle was when Glorfindel made the prediction that it wasn't by man's hand the Witch King would die. So back in Gondor, Eärnur at first resists the trash talk but eventually relents and rides to Minas Morgul to fight the Witch King. He rides into the city and is never seen again. I wonder how the Witch King was doing the trash talk though. Did he send letters? Use the Palantir? Also given this happens all the way back in 2050 why doesn't Gandalf realize the Nine are still around and up to no good? The Nazgul apparently stay pretty quiet in Minas Morgul for years afterwards, but Gandalf doesn't seem to fear their presence until he hears tidings of them wayyyy later about when Frodo is setting out. Yet he should have realized based on what happened to Eärnur hundreds of years ago that they were still around and a menace. Ginette Reno fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 01:51
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The story of Earnur is from Appendix A, he goes into a reasonable amount of detail since Earnur was the last king of Gondor.Ginette Reno posted:I wonder how the Witch King was doing the trash talk though. Did he send letters? Use the Palantir? Since JRRT doesn’t elaborate, I’m forced to assume it’s just like the opening scene of The Worm Ouroboros and Angmar sent him a really ugly dude with a tail to deliver a rude note. Ginette Reno posted:Also given this happens all the way back in 2050 why doesn't Gandalf realize the Nine are still around and up to no good? The Nazgul apparently stay pretty quiet in Minas Morgul for years afterwards, but Gandalf doesn't seem to fear their presence until he hears tidings of them wayyyy later about when Frodo is setting out. Yet he should have realized based on what happened to Eärnur hundreds of years ago that they were still around and a menace. I don’t think it’s that Gandalf doesn’t think they’re still around, it’s that he doesn’t specifically expect them to be around the Shire. Remember, Sauron has no idea where the Shire is even when he sends the wraiths out to go look for the Ring! If they hadn’t bumped into Saruman’s goblin-man flunky on the road they might have taken years to find Frodo. Also, the ringwraiths have historically been used to fight against the Numenorean kingdoms, and were most recently (still hundreds of years before LOTR) sighted making war on Gondor. We don’t get any sense that they regularly traveled any farther afield than Dol Guldur (in fact the total cockup they make of the hunt for the ring suggests their lack of experience in distant lands). Gandalf assumed they were still at Minas Morgul or in the borderlands of Gondor at best, or bumbling around half the northern world looking for a place whose name is also a generic word for an administrative division at worst.
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Jul 31, 2018 02:16
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skasion posted:I don’t think it’s that Gandalf doesn’t think they’re still around, it’s that he doesn’t specifically expect them to be around the Shire. Remember, Sauron has no idea where the Shire is even when he sends the wraiths out to go look for the Ring! If they hadn’t bumped into Saruman’s goblin-man flunky on the road they might have taken years to find Frodo. Also, the ringwraiths have historically been used to fight against the Numenorean kingdoms, and were most recently (still hundreds of years before LOTR) sighted making war on Gondor. We don’t get any sense that they regularly traveled any farther afield than Dol Guldur (in fact the total cockup they make of the hunt for the ring suggests their lack of experience in distant lands). Gandalf assumed they were still at Minas Morgul or in the borderlands of Gondor at best, or bumbling around half the northern world looking for a place whose name is also a generic word for an administrative division at worst. It's kinda curious though that the Ring Wraiths don't know about the Shire since Fornost is a Northern Kingdom and the Witch King dwelt near there for many years. And obviously, it's a short jump from there to Bree where Hobbits/Men have lived together for years and years. There's also the rumor of Hobbits fighting alongside Men against the Witchking's northern armies though it might just be Hobbits fancying that it happened. The Shire isn't *that* far from where the Witch King was dwelling for a while. I guess the argument would be they had no reason to care or wonder about lands to the West of there back then since so far as they knew the only thing of consequence to the West was the havens leading to Valinor. Also interesting that Sauron never learned of Hobbits via Saruman. Saruman obviously knew about the Shire long before Sauron did, and yet Sauron dominated Saruman via the Palantir. Yet perhaps Saruman had enough cunning and strength to hide knowledge of the Shire from Sauron. Certainly he would have tried to do so given he coveted the ring for himself. skasion posted:Since JRRT doesn’t elaborate, I’m forced to assume it’s just like the opening scene of The Worm Ouroboros and Angmar sent him a really ugly dude with a tail to deliver a rude note. That would own
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Jul 31, 2018 03:11
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Was it called the Shire at the time Angmar was still in the area? Was it even settled?
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Jul 31, 2018 03:40
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Bongo Bill posted:Was it called the Shire at the time Angmar was still in the area? Was it even settled? e: Yes. The Shire was founded in 1601 and was part of the kingdom of Arthedain, itself a part of Arnor. Arthedain was overrun by Angmar sometime after 1974, though why the Shire wasn't included, I'm not sure. Angmar was founded sometime around 1300. All dates are in the Third Age. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 03:45
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Ravenfood posted:I'm checking on the timeline, but also hobbits have some bizarrely preternatural way of not attracting attention. Not explicitly magically or anything, they just...don't. "They possessed from the first the art of disappearing swiftly and silently, when large folk whom they do not wish to meet come blundering by; and this an they have developed until to Men it may seem magical. "
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Jul 31, 2018 05:25
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I recall that Tolkien wrote in the appendices that the Shire sent a force of hobbit-archers to the aid of the king at Fornost at some point during the wars against Angmar, and that's the only fighting they did. And I believe the hobbits are aware they were once part of the north-kingdom...they have that saying, "When the King comes back", i.e. "lol that'll never happen"
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Jul 31, 2018 07:21
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Also, remember the Ring possessed a portion of Sauron's power and was trying to return to him. It let itself be lost by Gollum during The Hobbit because it could feel Sauron returning to power as the Necromancer. If a Misty Mountain goblin (or even one of the dwarves of Thorin's company) had picked up the Ring, it would have found its way to Sauron post haste and the Ring's mission would have succeeded. Only the very lucky/unlucky happenstance that a hobbit picked up the Ring saved Middle-Earth. So the timing of the Ring being found and Sauron's coming back to some sort of power was not unrelated
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Jul 31, 2018 08:11
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It seemed like pretty much the only way Sauron could lose is if the Ring was seized by one of the old-rear end super-elves or potentially Aragorn or Saruman. (Or hell, Gandalf.) While that would not be somehow guaranteed, it's the road where he COULD lose, and where losing's consequence is that he becomes an evil powerless ghost who gets to watch Super Galadriel drink wine and yell at orcs for eternity.
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Jul 31, 2018 11:20
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Ginette Reno posted:Also strategically Sauron is so powerful at this point that he can afford to lose a battle against Gondor. So yes he attacks sooner than he might have liked because Aragorn spooks him, but he also weighs (correctly) the fact that he has enough armies in reserve to be able to do it again even if the attack fails. Sauron does seem to have pushing a bit harder in recent years - I can’t remember if it’s Boromir or Faramir talks about defending the last bridge at Osgiliath when the Orcs finally shoved them out of Ithilien, presumably so Harad armies could use the road rather than looping round through Khand to get into Mordor.
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Jul 31, 2018 11:39
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Ginette Reno posted:It's kinda curious though that the Ring Wraiths don't know about the Shire since Fornost is a Northern Kingdom and the Witch King dwelt near there for many years. And obviously, it's a short jump from there to Bree where Hobbits/Men have lived together for years and years. There's also the rumor of Hobbits fighting alongside Men against the Witchking's northern armies though it might just be Hobbits fancying that it happened. The degree to which Sauron dominated Saruman can be kind of overstated. Like Denethor, he could manipulate him through control of the palantiri. Far more so than Denethor, he could induce him to humble himself. But Saruman was deeply disloyal vassal who openly connived at taking the ring for himself if possible, or if not, letting Sauron smash Gondor and then usurping his power. I don’t think he could sift through Saruman’s mind and pull out any knowledge he pleased. He certainly didn’t trust Saruman: in the event he had a candidate (Mouth) lined up to replace him. Ravenfood posted:I'm checking on the timeline, but also hobbits have some bizarrely preternatural way of not attracting attention. Not explicitly magically or anything, they just...don't. When Tolkien’s narrators say that Angmar overran Arthedain, they mean that he shattered the state and sacked its major settlement, dispersing its people. What they don’t mean is that 100% of the territory of Arthedain was formally annexed to Angmar or something. Remember, Angmar was not an normal state that developed out of nationalistic impulse or the property rights of its nobility or whatever. It was the power base of one undead wizard which he built up over a period of centuries to beat the poo poo out of the northern kingdoms. The year after sacking Fornost his power was broken by a single reverse. There’s no mention that in this time he established formal territorial boundaries or campaigned anywhere south of the North Downs. It’s entirely possible that he personally never went near to the Shire, much less heard what its name was. The Arnorian kings certainly don’t seem to have cared much about it. It was on the western periphery of Arthedain; the center of the civil wars in Arnor and later the wars with Angmar always seems to have been more towards the weather hills. quote:In 1974 the power of Angmar arose again, and the Witch-king came down upon Arthedain before winter was ended. He captured Fornost, and drove most of the remaining Dúnedain over the Lune; among them were the sons of the king. But King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north with some of his guard; and they escaped by the swiftness of their horses.
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Jul 31, 2018 14:09
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skasion posted:He certainly didn’t trust Saruman: in the event he had a candidate (Mouth) lined up to replace him. Just a moment quote:'But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron’s, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.’ I always read that as it only being the dude's thought that he was going to get it, rather than something Sauron had definitely decided. "Sauron wants someone to dwell there, and when this rotten war is over, I shall certainly wangle that plum job for myself, for I am an evil scheming bastard, nyuk nyuk nyuk", rather than "I have already got this job and am just waiting for these idiots to be crushed before I can take it up".
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Jul 31, 2018 18:31
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It’s certainly possible that he is wrong, but I don’t think Tolkien intends us to assume that. This is right after his narrator has just finished introducing the character as knowing much of Sauron’s mind and rising ever higher in his favor. Also it’s not like we’re drowning in alternative candidates for Sauron’s viceroy. The Witch King is dead, Saruman is pretty obviously ruled out because he so evidently betrayed Sauron and also got punked by a bunch of drunk giants/illiterate barbarians on horses, who else is left? Khamul? Gothmog? At any rate, the Mouth is offering terms direct from Sauron (given the way in which his curious namelessness presented I wonder if we shouldn’t read it as literally being Sauron himself speaking through a proxy) and we have to assume that Sauron has made very clear to the Mouth that Saruman is going to be replaced by a less free agent. If the Mouth thinks that will be him, so much the better. And if it turns out to be someone else, what’s he going to do about it, complain to HR?
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Jul 31, 2018 18:43
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Isn’t the Mouth numennorean? He would have made a good governor.
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Aug 2, 2018 14:34
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euphronius posted:Isn’t the Mouth numennorean? He would have made a good governor. “It is told” that he was.
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Aug 2, 2018 14:38
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Sam and his fuckin editorial commentary
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Aug 2, 2018 14:42
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This is in a 100% Gondorian sourced passage. Uses “Peregrin”, Frodo and Sam weren’t there, dialogue full of archaisms (“I have tokens I was bidden to show thee”), focuses on establishing legitimacy of the Telcontar and the divine authority of Gandalf over evil. Blame Findegil I guess.
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Aug 2, 2018 14:51
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Makes sense they would not want to 100% state straight our that the Mouth was their cousin. Tho I guess that strain of numenoran has been on middle earth since before Elendil et al showed up? Which would be more reason to downplay the Mouths heritage.
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Aug 2, 2018 14:53
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skasion posted:This is in a 100% Gondorian sourced passage. Uses “Peregrin”, Frodo and Sam weren’t there, dialogue full of archaisms (“I have tokens I was bidden to show thee”), focuses on establishing legitimacy of the Telcontar and the divine authority of Gandalf over evil. Blame Findegil I guess. Oh my god, I hadn't even considered that as the reason for the huge tonal shift toward that section of RotK, where it's all thee-and-thou-and-forsooth. I always read it as Tolkien just getting carried away with himself  But I should have known better, that's an awesome reading.
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Aug 2, 2018 14:56
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Same. That's really insightful.
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Aug 2, 2018 14:58
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euphronius posted:Makes sense they would not want to 100% state straight our that the Mouth was their cousin. It’s a bit unclear. There explicitly is Numenorean noble blood in Middle-earth that did not come from the House of Elendil, some of it in Sauron’s service. But the text doesn’t elaborate on his specific ancestry. It also refers to him as a “renegade”, a word which suggests that he personally betrayed the West rather than having been born into evil (Tolkien would certainly have been aware that etymologically the word comes from a name for Spanish apostates who converted to Islam).
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Aug 2, 2018 15:00
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Data Graham posted:Oh my god, I hadn't even considered that as the reason for the huge tonal shift toward that section of RotK, where it's all thee-and-thou-and-forsooth. I always read it as Tolkien just getting carried away with himself I mean that is exactly what it is. I seriously doubt he was writing it with Findegil in mind. The whole LOTR-as-composite-text thing is an ex post facto justification by Tolkien for the vast tonal changes across the book. Imagine him chuckling donnishly about it.
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Aug 2, 2018 15:04
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skasion posted:It’s a bit unclear. There explicitly is Numenorean noble blood in Middle-earth that did not come from the House of Elendil, some of it in Sauron’s service. But the text doesn’t elaborate on his specific ancestry. It also refers to him as a “renegade”, a word which suggests that he personally betrayed the West rather than having been born into evil (Tolkien would certainly have been aware that etymologically the word comes from a name for Spanish apostates who converted to Islam). Yeah, this reminded me of the Prince of Dol Amroth thing where his supposed elvish descent is left vague. It always bothered me because supposedly there are "three unions of Men and Elves" -- Aragorn and Arwen, Beren and Luthien, and Tuor and Idril -- and Rando Dol Amroth Ancestor Dude and (I just looked this up) Rando Elf Lady Named Mithrellas (trans. " wandering mist leaf") is not one of those three As to the Mouth specifically, the impression I always had was that he was an old-school Black Numenorean from, like, Isildur's era, whose life had been prolonged (and humanity robbed away) by Sauron. Like, an actual Numenorean, not just descended from Numenoreans like Aragorn.
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Aug 2, 2018 15:12
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skasion posted:It’s a bit unclear. There explicitly is Numenorean noble blood in Middle-earth that did not come from the House of Elendil, some of it in Sauron’s service. But the text doesn’t elaborate on his specific ancestry. It also refers to him as a “renegade”, a word which suggests that he personally betrayed the West rather than having been born into evil (Tolkien would certainly have been aware that etymologically the word comes from a name for Spanish apostates who converted to Islam). Whoa. I thought renegade came from "runagate". Turns out it's the other way around. Learn something new every day if you're not careful
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Aug 2, 2018 15:16
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The Mouth being a Thousand year old Númenórean living fossil is cool. (I refuse to say “Black Númenórean”)
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Aug 2, 2018 15:18
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euphronius posted:The Mouth being a Thousand year old Númenórean living fossil is cool. (I refuse to say “Black Númenórean”) If it isn't heresy to bring up a non-Tolkien fantasy novel in this thread: quote:‘You can’t call them black magicians,’ I said.
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Aug 2, 2018 15:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, this reminded me of the Prince of Dol Amroth thing where his supposed elvish descent is left vague. It always bothered me because supposedly there are "three unions of Men and Elves" -- Aragorn and Arwen, Beren and Luthien, and Tuor and Idril -- and Rando Dol Amroth Ancestor Dude and (I just looked this up) Rando Elf Lady Named Mithrellas (trans. " wandering mist leaf") is not one of those three Obviously a welsh style heroic triplet if you ask me. The fact that Hercules, Samson, and Hector were all as strong as Adam himself doesn’t mean nobody else was ever really drat strong. With an added element of dynastic propriety: if you rule by grace of your descent from both elf-man couples of yore and marry another elf, it is probably thought a tad impolite for your vassals to brag of their own elvish ancestry. Hieronymous Alloy posted:As to the Mouth specifically, the impression I always had was that he was an old-school Black Numenorean from, like, Isildur's era, whose life had been prolonged (and humanity robbed away) by Sauron. Like, an actual Numenorean, not just descended from Numenoreans like Aragorn. quote:The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’ But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc. The fact that he is “a living man” strongly suggests to me, though I admit it doesn’t make certain, that he is not an actual 3000+ years old survivor of Numenor. A couple centuries maybe, millennia no. In Tolkien’s concept of mortality, a human needs to be something other than alive to last that long. On the other hand, Barad-dur “rose again” starting in 2951 after Sauron fled there out of Dol Guldur. So at the very least the Mouth must have something a bit odd going on with his age: if we accept literally the narrator’s history of him here, he was presumably an adult at that time and so must be at least as old as Aragorn, but not so old that he can’t mock Gandalf by calling him a graybeard.
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Aug 2, 2018 15:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:If it isn't heresy to bring up a non-Tolkien fantasy novel in this thread: lol I thought that said "ethnically challenged'
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Aug 2, 2018 15:26
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skasion posted:
Ok, yeah, good point, and it says he's "of the race of" Black Numenoreans, not an actual Numenorean, so I was probably misreading that. Even for Numenoreans yeah looking at the lifespans you've got approx. ~400 years for Valandil max and ~ 200 for Gimilkhad; Aragorn lives for 210 years total. (Edit: technically there's also the Witch-King but obviously there's a ring there stretching him out). It may be that the film's depiction of him as very clearly no longer fully human had warped my perception of him a bit as a sort of proto- or demi- wraith. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Aug 2, 2018 |
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Aug 2, 2018 15:32
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A Númenórean living forever would be a very big plot hole.
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Aug 2, 2018 15:32
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euphronius posted:A Númenórean living forever would be a very big plot hole. Sauron teaching them enough sorcery to live longer than normal doesn't sound out of the question though.
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Aug 2, 2018 15:38
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There's no reason to assume he's anything other than a descendent some of the many "High Men" who lived in Middle Earth once upon a time, and an rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 2, 2018 18:03
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