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Radish posted:Yeah it's almost like he has an inherent advantage of incumbancy and institutional support from the party over a no name opponent that got very little media exposure. Maybe the idea should be to push good candidates as far as they can go instead of defending trash ones from them. I don't see how I'm advocating for the party defending Joe Manchin? Read the second part of that post where I say pretty much exactly what you're arguing for, that having progressive candidates as options is an essential part of making the state more progressive.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:03
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twice burned ice posted:His value is that he votes with the caucus on big ticket bills. That's it. He declined to vote on the DADT repeal and says he is in support of DOMA. He’s been declaring that there should be a wall between the US and Mexico. He voted to confirm Sessions and will vote to confirm Kavanaugh. He is useful for the GOP.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:13
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twice burned ice posted:So have the voters Swearengin didn't get union support. She got support from leftist political groups, but all the major unions endorsed Manchin. And as Matt said, WV is a state where labor makes up the backbone of politics.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:14
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And the problem there is, union leaders being absolutely terrible (which is why the teachers went wildcat).
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Jul 31, 2018 15:15
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The issue with framing Manchin as the only way to win in West Virginia is that it scuttles any attempt to move left. Any primary opponent is hit with "you are risking letting Republicans" when the guy actively worked to help Reoublicans when he wasn't chosen previously.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:15
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If centrists only held Manchin to the same standard they hold regular voters "Suck it up and vote for the thing with the D next to it! There's only two options, if you don't vote D you're basically voting R!" Except Manchin's vote counts way way way more than Joe Voter's vote because Manchin is a loving Senator.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:15
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theCalamity posted:He declined to vote on the DADT repeal and says he is in support of DOMA. He’s been declaring that there should be a wall between the US and Mexico. He voted to confirm Sessions and will vote to confirm Kavanaugh. He is useful for the GOP. He's less useful to the GOP than a Trumpist would be. You know, like the person he's running against in the election this year. If his opponent had been in his seat last year, the ACA would have been repealed. I'll say it again, he loving sucks, but he does have some value to the democratic party. Main Paineframe posted:Swearengin didn't get union support. She got support from leftist political groups, but all the major unions endorsed Manchin. And as Matt said, WV is a state where labor makes up the backbone of politics. Swearingen didn't get union support, despite being a strong union supporter. What does this tell you about the priorities of the people making those decisions in the union? They preferred the rest of Manchin's policies to hers. That's obviously stupid and runs counter to their interests, but that's the reality of the situation. WampaLord posted:If centrists only held Manchin to the same standard they hold regular voters Please tell me where I said I was happy with Manchin's voting record. I pointed to two useful votes, saying that those are his only value. I'd love it if Manchin voted with the caucus more often. Really, I'd love it if West Virginians would elect Eugene Debs reincarnated, but it's not going to happen this decade. twice burned ice fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 15:21
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Union leaders =/= union members. They're usually gladhanding power mongers and rarely represent the rank and file. I completely disagree that Progressivism won't work in WV. Like I said, you need to build from the ground up. Maybe shooting for senator is a bad idea for your first shot. Would it be great? Sure.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:25
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twice burned ice posted:He's less useful to the GOP than a Trumpist would be. You know, like the person he's running against in the election this year. The dude said he’s open to endorsing Trump. And he voted to confirm the guy who spearhead child concentration camps. The ACA isn’t the only thing that counts.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:27
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Matt Zerella posted:I completely disagree that Progressivism won't work in WV. Like I said, you need to build from the ground up. Maybe shooting for senator is a bad idea for your first shot. Would it be great? Sure. Who do you disagree with, because it's not me. quote:I absolutely think the continued presence of progressives in WV elections is a good thing and will make progressive policy more popular, but at this moment, the public support just isn't there I never said progressivism won't work in WV. I said it won't work right now. I said that we need to have progressives on the ballot to encourage the state to become more progressive. That's literally the same argument you're making. This is why dems are bad chat gets shoved into two threads. It's impossible to make ground in the argument because the dems bad posters refuse to engage with the actual arguments of the people they're arguing against.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:30
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Hillary Clinton is plotting to wreck the primary field next year.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:35
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Bad Dems are innately equal to chuds thus there is no logic in reasoning with them.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:36
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twice burned ice posted:If his opponent had been in his seat last year, the ACA would have been repealed. I'll say it again, he loving sucks, but he does have some value to the democratic party. The actual ACA repeal bills failed by more than just one vote in the Senate, so Manchin wasn't crucial to ACA's survival. And the ACA sucks anyway. It tells me that Swearengin's total lack of political history meant that she hadn't built the necessary ties and credibility in the state political machine, which declined to support her. With no particular source of funding and no strong campaign apparatus, she wasn't a credible enough contender for them to risk alienating Manchin. Besides, Manchin is good on labor issues, though nothing else. He's well aware that his political career depends on union backing, and he has past experience with what happens if the unions endorse his opponent... ...and WV has past experience with what happens when Manchin loses a primary: he endorses the Republican instead!
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Jul 31, 2018 15:41
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Nonsense posted:Bad Dems are innately equal to chuds thus there is no logic in reasoning with them. I'll take mustache twirling villainy any day over the sort of banal evil that Democrats love so much.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:43
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Main Paineframe posted:The actual ACA repeal bills failed by more than just one vote in the Senate, so Manchin wasn't crucial to ACA's survival. The skinny repeal vote failed 49-51. If you flip Manchin's vote, that's 50-50, which results in repeal. quote:And the ACA sucks anyway. The ACA sucks therefore it's okay if the repbulicans repeal it and replace it with a system that's worse in every single way.  quote:It tells me that Swearengin's total lack of political history meant that she hadn't built the necessary ties and credibility in the state political machine, which declined to support her. Which is why continuing to run progressives is important, as I've said what must be 4 times now.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:46
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twice burned ice posted:This is why dems are bad chat gets shoved into two threads. It's impossible to make ground in the argument because the dems bad posters refuse to engage with the actual arguments of the people they're arguing against. If you projected just a little harder you'd be legally classified as a cinema.
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Jul 31, 2018 15:54
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The fascist supporting Manchin was useful in this one instance therefore we need him obviously
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Jul 31, 2018 15:58
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twice burned ice posted:The skinny repeal vote failed 49-51. If you flip Manchin's vote, that's 50-50, which results in repeal. The skinny repeal wasn't an actual repeal, and left most of the important pieces of the ACA in place. It would have hastened the ACA's inevitable death spiral and collapse, but that's just the result of fundamental flaws in the ACA's design. The GOP were never going to replace the ACA. If it got repealed, that would just create an opportunity for Dems to replace it with something better. See, the thing you're not getting is that political moves that are made now affect things that happen later. Looking just at the here and now is unacceptable in politics - you also have to look ahead to the future. Being solely concerned with the short-term just leads to flushing the long-term down the toilet.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:00
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theCalamity posted:The fascist supporting Manchin was useful in this one instance therefore we need him obviously The alternative is a fascist who will never be useful. Let me be perfectly clear: I don't like Joe Manchin. I would prefer progressive candidate rather than Joe Manchin. Joe Manchin is better than the republican who would otherwise be elected by the West Virginia electorate.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:10
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i love the narrative that the dems fought for and saved the ACA. schumer tried to get trump to compromise with him on killing aca slowly with copper plans and various other regulations weakening, and repubs hosed that up. just like when obama was offering to trade social security and medicare cuts to the republicans for a tax hike, and the republicans hosed that one up too edit: ^  the useful fascist narrative shows up again. "he may be a fascist, but he's OUR FASCIST" is a hell of an argument
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Jul 31, 2018 16:10
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didn't centrists' mommas ever teach them not to vote for fascists?
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Jul 31, 2018 16:12
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Condiv posted:
That is an incredibly incredibly incredibly stupid reading of what I wrote. Would you prefer A) someone who votes with Trump 60% of the time or B) someone who votes with Trump 95% of the time? Those are your options in this reality.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:16
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Schumer has to go.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:18
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twice burned ice posted:Those are your options in this reality. An inspiring message brought to you by the Democratic Party. Why do we keep losing elections guys???
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Jul 31, 2018 16:24
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twice burned ice posted:That is an incredibly incredibly incredibly stupid reading of what I wrote. i would prefer someone who doesn't vote to approve a deeply incompetent arch-conservative judge to a lifetime sc appointment for funsies. manchin fails that test so voting for him is not worth it, he's functionally identical to a republican i would prefer swearengin runs a third party campaign and beats him, or he just loses period at this point. this faux-democrat is nothing but poison to the party, and he can't be counted on for anything. he needs to be purged at all costs. ditto schumer Condiv fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 16:24
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twice burned ice posted:The alternative is a fascist who will never be useful. Manchin is like one step away from being a fascist and that’s me being generous. He is willing to endorse a fascist and has used said fascists rhetoric before. At best, he’s a collaborator.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:25
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Rent-A-Cop posted:gently caress you, it can't get better. twice burned ice posted:
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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Jul 31, 2018 16:26
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Socialists will actually make minorities vote, a problem often blamed on youth alone.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:28
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Condiv posted:i would prefer someone who doesn't vote to approve a deeply incompetent arch-conservative judge to a lifetime sc appointment for funsies. manchin fails that test so voting for him is not worth it, he's functionally identical to a republican Welp, tell me when that person is on the ballot in WV. For now, it's Manchin and a republican. The other senator in WV is Capito, who votes with Trump 96% of the time. Manchin loving sucks and he's the best senator on offer in WV. That's literally the reality of the situation. We should run progressive candidates in WV to build a progressive base so that's no longer the case. twice burned ice fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 16:28
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twice burned ice posted:Welp, tell me when that person is on the ballot in WV. For now, it's Manchin and a repbulican. The other senator in WV is Capito, who votes with Trump 96% of the time. she is probably going to announce her candidacy soon, if she's gonna do it. she was making rumblings of it a week ago also, no manchin is worse than nothing at this point. he's a republican that dems demand we vote for, and for whom dems rig their primaries to keep in power. he's an obstacle to any progress for leftism in WV and this nation, so kick him out Condiv fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 16:30
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twice burned ice posted:???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? How did the bean man win???
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Jul 31, 2018 16:36
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Excuse me while I explain to these people the pragmatic value of their children dying in a coal mine, while a literal carnival huckster promises them magic beans. Since you seem to be an Grade A expert in missing the loving point, here it is again: We should run progressive candidates in WV Until one of those candidates wins a primary against Manchin however, he's the least terrible option we've got.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:38
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It's good that you support doing good things in a more convenient season. Real top opinion, there.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:40
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love watching centrists try to turn voting for a fascist into some pragmatic, laudable position
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Jul 31, 2018 16:40
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Look, until somebody good can win these primaries that we keep rigging for the bad candidate then we really can't do anything and if you disagree you're dumb and childish 
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Jul 31, 2018 16:42
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VP4NVj2jUI we should support manchin as a democratic politician cause he's just like john mccain, our bestest ally ever!
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Jul 31, 2018 16:42
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i'm just kidding of course. mccain is bad because he's a republican. but if he acted the same but joined the democratic party then he'd be super good and we'd have to vote for him! can't let the republicans win!
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Jul 31, 2018 16:45
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Cerebral Bore posted:Look, until somebody good can win these primaries that we keep rigging for the bad candidate then we really can't do anything and if you disagree you're dumb and childish You're really good at strawmanning. Please do it more. It's very productive. Where did I advocate for democratic institutions to work against progressives? Where did I even express support for the democratic institutions at all. You're loving dumb, my friend. twice burned ice fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 16:45
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Cerebral Bore posted:If you projected just a little harder you'd be legally classified as a cinema. okay i laughed at this one
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Jul 31, 2018 16:48
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Condiv posted:i'm just kidding of course. mccain is bad because he's a republican. but if he acted the same but joined the democratic party then he'd be super good and we'd have to vote for him! can't let the republicans win! Yes because there's literally no difference between Joe Manchin's voting record and Shelly Moore Capito's. Oh wait, there is! twice burned ice posted:
I don't like Joe Manchin you stupid fucks.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:48
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