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I have more respect, as a person, for someone whose sole point of engagement with the RPG hobby is listening to actual plays than someone whose sole point of engagement is arguing about the finer points of minutia in RPG setting lore while also never actually playing a game.
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Aug 4, 2018 07:00
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Kai Tave posted:I have more respect, as a person, for someone whose sole point of engagement with the RPG hobby is listening to actual plays than someone whose sole point of engagement is arguing about the finer points of minutia in RPG setting lore while also never actually playing a game. Or much worse, arguing the 'correct' sort of GMing style or storytelling while never having played or having played briefly, once, years prior.
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Aug 4, 2018 07:02
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fool_of_sound posted:Or much worse, arguing the 'correct' sort of GMing style or storytelling while never having played or having played briefly, once, years prior. Yeah, I think this one is definitely near the bottom.
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Aug 4, 2018 07:04
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Kai Tave posted:I have more respect, as a person, for someone whose sole point of engagement with the RPG hobby is listening to actual plays than someone whose sole point of engagement is arguing about the finer points of minutia in RPG setting lore while also never actually playing a game. I have none for either. In fact there's probably a Venn diagram of those somewhere.
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Aug 4, 2018 07:09
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The actual play thing is interesting because the RPG hobby has always had this strong tradition of "let me tell you about my game" going on. Like, people rarely spend the same amount of time telling you about this one game of Settlers of Catan they played you wouldn't believe what happened or a detailed turn-by-turn recap of their last game of Magic, and obviously it's because RPGs have a strong storytelling/acting component to them which lends itself well to recounting things like a very nerdy oral history. Only now with the rise in prevalence of actual plays can people sit down and experience everything the way the people at the table, at the time, experienced it in a much more direct and immediate fashion, with all the little nuances and "you had to be there" moments. In a way it's a natural development of a thing that people have been doing for decades only now with the benefit of affordable A/V equipment and social media.
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Aug 4, 2018 07:13
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People whose only interaction to a hobby or fandom are by secondary YouTube or podcasts videos are psychopaths and will become the soldiers of the next great fascist army (the SS officers will be the fortnite streamers)
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Aug 4, 2018 07:18
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Plutonis posted:People whose only interaction to a hobby or fandom are by secondary YouTube or podcasts videos are psychopaths and will become the soldiers of the next great fascist army (the SS officers will be the fortnite streamers) you're weirdly intense about this
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Aug 4, 2018 07:19
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The Witcher RPG is out on PDF now.
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Aug 4, 2018 07:34
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Anyone who ever tries to argue "You're only a REAL fan of X if you Y" deserves to be shoved in a closet and to be farted on through the keyhole.
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Aug 4, 2018 07:58
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Sounds like the other end of people who think saying 'I just don't get the appeal!' about Lets Plays is somehow an insightful and cutting point. Hell, Let's Play D&D started out here. Or say, you're not a real fan of football if you don't play it professionally. Video games are, at least technically, an active hobby, and RPGs even more so because of the social and mechanical engagement inherently required. It makes sense for people who enjoy them but don't always feel like playing them are going to enjoy a vicarious experience that they can understand, and see how someone else interprets and performs differently from how they did. Maybe the grognards are also afraid that people will no longer respect their ideas on RPGs (lol) if the counterpoint are people actually showing how they play the game. (though I don't think anyone in this forum has any room to talk on 'people who spend more time arguing about games than playing them') Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 08:21
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It's not outside the realm of possibility that rpg publishers might make choices that cater to spectator demands at players' expense - I think that could be a legitimate concern? I don't think that is the same as being a REAL FAN or whatever.
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Aug 4, 2018 08:23
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:It's not outside the realm of possibility that rpg publishers might make choices that cater to spectator demands at players' expense - I think that could be a legitimate concern? It's not like they're known for their tight, player-focused design that might be upset by a focus on spectable as it is. Besides, if you count Age of Sigmar they basically already did that. GW literally thought that their main audience was more interested in models as display pieces in their homes than playing them.
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Aug 4, 2018 08:25
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Plutonis posted:People whose only interaction to a hobby or fandom are by secondary YouTube or podcasts videos are psychopaths and will become the soldiers of the next great fascist army (the SS officers will be the fortnite streamers) The tiniest and weakest army ever after spending so much time in doors with no interaction with anything else, these "soldiers" probably can be killed by a stern look
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Aug 4, 2018 08:57
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Libluini posted:The tiniest and weakest army ever I thought these people were supposed to be the normies and fake geeks who watch on their phones while at drinking parties and sports games?
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Aug 4, 2018 09:05
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I thought these people were supposed to be the normies and fake geeks who watch on their phones while at drinking parties and sports games? Everyone is someone's nerd, and someone else's normie.
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Aug 4, 2018 09:54
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:It's not outside the realm of possibility that rpg publishers might make choices that cater to spectator demands at players' expense How, exactly?
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Aug 4, 2018 10:11
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I don't think it's happened as of yet so I can only hypothesize, but something like wild magic tables for everyone I think would be more fun for spectators than players.
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Aug 4, 2018 10:33
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That doesn't seem likely but it also doesn't seem like a big deal if it does happen? There's plenty of RPGs focused on stuff I don't care about, if someone wants to make one focused on APs that's fine too
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Aug 4, 2018 10:35
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Lots of people here end up playing games they don't really like because of the words in the cover. Design decisions can affect a lot of people. I'm not trying to overblow it, I don't think it's a huge pressing danger to my RPG session, but groups are pretty hard to form and maintain and sometimes doing so means playing a game with some mechanics you don't like. It's good for me if games with mechanics I like are widespread and popular.
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Aug 4, 2018 10:44
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a D&D designed to appeal to the AP crowd would be the second time ever that D&D ever had a design focus, so might as well
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Aug 4, 2018 10:58
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gradenko_2000 posted:a D&D designed to appeal to the AP crowd would be the second time ever that D&D ever had a design focus, so might as well
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Aug 4, 2018 11:00
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Yeah we absolutely are not to the point where we have to worry about games being designed towards an unsavory goal. A lot of games still aren't really designed in any major way.
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Aug 4, 2018 11:32
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I only mind actual play podcasts when they are not actual play.
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Aug 4, 2018 14:04
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hyphz posted:I only mind actual play podcasts when they are not actual play. this is also why I cannot stand Critical Role
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Aug 4, 2018 14:08
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gradenko_2000 posted:he went on a ranty crusade a few months back about how people who only engage with the hobby by listening/watching APs don't really count as being part of the hobby By his dumb logic, sports fans aren't part of their hobby either.
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Aug 4, 2018 14:10
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I got into RPGs via APs so nyah.gradenko_2000 posted:this is also why I cannot stand Critical Role What?????
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Aug 4, 2018 14:23
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Pollyanna posted:I got into RPGs via APs so nyah. The very first AP I got into was Crit Juice, who played D&D 4e back in 2013 or so. About two years later when I had actually learned how to play RPGs, I was listening to RPPR's Iron Heroes campaign. In both cases, those guys ran the games by the book, to the point that there's this one Iron Heroes episode where the game descends into a 15-minute digression while the GM looks up the exact rules for doing a bull rush. Between that kind of exposure and my personal preference for "tactical combat", I have a hard time getting into games where I know that the rules aren't actually being followed or are otherwise being largely abbreviated. Another AP I don't like for this reason is Harmonquest, since they allegedly use Pathfinder but large swaths of it are just flat-out ignored, like the low-level Barbarian doing a "whirlwind attack" in the first episode, long before such a thing would ever be possible in the game. This is not to say that I don't like APs of "rules-light" games - I've enjoyed a bunch of different One Shot episodes and FATE APs, but Critical Role falls into that place where there's just too much "GM fiat" going on for me to really get into it.
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Aug 4, 2018 14:54
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I was at the Diana Jones award this year and the best part was the Critical Role and G&S people in attendance going up to accept the win despite that not being the plan. It was supposed to just be James D'Amato, but Satine Phoenix went up too, and her thanks speech was hilarious. A rags to riches tale about how Critical Role started from nothing, just her, Matt Mercer, Keith Baker, and a big professional podcast studio at little ol' Meltdown Comics. With a dream that their single recording would raise a thousand dollars. Horatio Alger himself couldn't dream of a tinier start than Chris Hardwick's custom recording space!
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Aug 4, 2018 15:42
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:groups are pretty hard to form and maintain and sometimes doing so means playing a game with some mechanics you don't like.
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Aug 4, 2018 15:46
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Yawgmoth posted:Bad gaming is worse than no gaming at all.
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Aug 4, 2018 15:48
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Elephant Parade posted:crappy mechanics you can houserule out Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:playing a game with some mechanics you don't like 
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Aug 4, 2018 15:50
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a few minor crappy mechanics still aren't enough to make a game bad
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Aug 4, 2018 15:52
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Wow that was an impressive shift of the goalposts. All the way from "you can houserule any and all mechanics out if they're bad" to "all bad mechanics that exist are minor and never affect a game's quality ever" in one post!
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Aug 4, 2018 16:01
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Yawgmoth posted:Wow that was an impressive shift of the goalposts. All the way from "you can houserule any and all mechanics out if they're bad" to "all bad mechanics that exist are minor and never affect a game's quality ever" in one post! A group using a bad system doesn't mean the gaming is bad though
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Aug 4, 2018 16:03
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Yawgmoth posted:Wow that was an impressive shift of the goalposts. All the way from "you can houserule any and all mechanics out if they're bad" to "all bad mechanics that exist are minor and never affect a game's quality ever" in one post!
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Aug 4, 2018 16:05
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There's a difference between playing a game whose mechanics you dislike just because you can't sell anyone on another system, and game you generally enjoy playing but you know well enough to plaster over or work around the awkward holes and bumps in the rules. Like Jeffrey has mentioned before that he doesn't dig the combat-side of 5e D&D all that much but he DMs it because that's what people wanted. Yawgmoth is big into 3.5e D&D and doesn't seem to have any issues DMing it with the many flaws that have been debated into the ground.
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Aug 4, 2018 16:39
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Those things are true but I would argue that if you are papering over or ignoring vast swaths of the rules to make your game work you are not, on a fundamental level, actually playing the game you all sat down to play. Inertia is powerful, though, so I totally get why people refuse to actually find the game they want to play even if I find it intensely frustrating sometimes.
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Aug 4, 2018 16:48
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Pollyanna posted:I got into RPGs via APs so nyah. The big difference is that you *started* to play. To be an spectator all the time, not deeming to try it, this is what I believe is a cretinous activity.
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Aug 4, 2018 17:05
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Reene posted:Those things are true but I would argue that if you are papering over or ignoring vast swaths of the rules to make your game work you are not, on a fundamental level, actually playing the game you all sat down to play. Inertia is powerful, though, so I totally get why people refuse to actually find the game they want to play even if I find it intensely frustrating sometimes. It'd probably depend on how big your list of house rules is, and I have no idea what Yawg does for his games. It'd say that generally, having to tape together the rules of a pen and paper rpg into a functional state shouldn't be considered acceptable in a good game the same way it's not in a board game or video game. The problem is that runs against a lot of overlapping issues ingrained tabletop rpg culture, like that there's one game that can be patched to fit any game or genre, the belief that it's a burden of the GM to make sure everything works and nobody is unbalanced against anyone else, and the idea that it's not worth investing time and money into other games because it'll require the same amount of money/work as learning your first game was to start with, etc. Culture can change, of course, and I think it is moving forward slowly.
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Aug 4, 2018 17:14
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people are also really bad at balance (ie. the rallying cry of "monks are banned" in the 3.5 days), especially when you start including balance that isn't just "character X does 20% more damage than character Y". it's one thing to be like "grapple is annoying, just please don't make a grapple-based character" and it's another to actually understand that long-term player fatigue may become an issue for characters with less narrative agency.
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