Also it would be one thing if the leading man left because of a contract dispute or getting disgraced in Hollywood or something like that. But O'Hare's problem was literally "There is a hole in your mind"
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# ? Aug 4, 2018 18:07 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 06:52 |
Pick posted:It's surprising in the sense that what JMS did was totally above and beyond what anyone had ever done with respect to planning a long TV story with like infinite contingency plans. It really does boggle the mind that these creative types intend to tell a narrative.... but fly totally by the seat of their pants episode to episode and end up painting themselves into corners.
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# ? Aug 4, 2018 18:43 |
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skooma512 posted:It really does boggle the mind that these creative types intend to tell a narrative.... but fly totally by the seat of their pants episode to episode and end up painting themselves into corners. There's a balance to be struck. You do want to be adaptable, because parts of a story might not end up working as well as you hope, and being able to pivot can be necessary. However, depending on the story you're telling, you really do need to have a sense of plot and pacing in advance.
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# ? Aug 4, 2018 18:51 |
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skooma512 posted:It really does boggle the mind that these creative types intend to tell a narrative.... but fly totally by the seat of their pants episode to episode and end up painting themselves into corners. It's one thing to know where you're going, another to know how you're going to get there. And the more developed your characters are, the more likely it is to change your route - sometimes you tell the story, other times the story tells you.
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# ? Aug 4, 2018 20:13 |
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Neddy Seagoon posted:BSG's failure wasn't entirely the fault of Ron Moore and co. They got hit hard by the writer's strike and just never recovered. Yeah, but at the same time I think there's a difference between "we made a few mistakes along the way" and "we just stuck 'And They Have A PLAN' in the title cards for funsies"
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# ? Aug 4, 2018 20:48 |
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I think the seat of your pants thing works because you can't expect television production to be predictable - even with cast changes and his back up plans, if B5 was canceled in season two (like Sense8) there'd be no real satisfying way to wrap it up without having a tv movie that just speeds through plot. BSG was screwed by the writers strike - though I think that if they were cancelled from the strike the last episode they shot (the first episode of 4.5, where everything truly goes to poo poo for everyone) would have worked as a particularly dire series finale. To my understanding, they were headed towards a very different 4.5 if the strike didn't happen, and they second-guessed and went in a completely different direction after they returned. Who knows if the first plan was better. I say all this as someone that is fine with how BSG ended though.
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# ? Aug 4, 2018 20:52 |
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Clouseau posted:I think the seat of your pants thing works because you can't expect television production to be predictable - even with cast changes and his back up plans, if B5 was canceled in season two (like Sense8) there'd be no real satisfying way to wrap it up without having a tv movie that just speeds through plot. Every season of B5 had a nice ending, that would have worked as series finale: Season 1: All gone to poo poo. (Shame there wasn't more seasons) Season 2: All still poo poo, there's some hope. (Shame there wasn't more seasons) Season 3: Sacrifice at Zhadum (World saved. the end) Season 4: Sleep in light + Conflicts end (Best spot to end series, IMHO)
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# ? Aug 4, 2018 23:05 |
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For the longest time I was convinced that "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" was intentionally written as a potential series finale in case the show wasn't picked up for season 5, it's such a perfect capstone to the whole saga while leaving the particulars of the immediate postwar plot open to speculation.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 00:21 |
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Was anyone aware of O'Hare's schizophrenia before JMS revealed it a few years ago after O'Hare died? As frequently as it's mentioned there was never any criticism or disregard for his performance and exit and everyone I feel that everyone just assumed there was "creative differences" and things ended up working out.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 00:31 |
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McSpanky posted:For the longest time I was convinced that "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" was intentionally written as a potential series finale in case the show wasn't picked up for season 5, it's such a perfect capstone to the whole saga while leaving the particulars of the immediate postwar plot open to speculation. It's a weird one. But no, DoFS is 5X01. Sleeping in Light was made as 4X22 then held back a full year when they got picked up.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 01:00 |
pentyne posted:Was anyone aware of O'Hare's schizophrenia before JMS revealed it a few years ago after O'Hare died? As frequently as it's mentioned there was never any criticism or disregard for his performance and exit and everyone I feel that everyone just assumed there was "creative differences" and things ended up working out. AFAIK, the only people who knew were the people in the room with O'Hare and JMS when O'Hare decided he had to stop. I think it was those two and one other. Doug Netter, maybe?
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 01:11 |
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I distinctly remember reading a few media pieces when O'Hare exited saying things like "replacing the wooden Michael O'Hare" with Boxleitner was a very positive thing for the series overall. It was like they thought O'Hare's acting was the thing that would tip B5 over to cancellation if he stayed. Part of that was probably trying to hand-wave away a thing they couldn't explain otherwise, but there were definitely people who disliked O'Hare's acting and thought That Guy From Scarecrow And Mrs. King was a major improvement. (Fun fact: Boxleitner was in 89 episodes of Scarecrow and Mrs. King and 88 eps of B5, so he's still That Guy From Scarecrow and Mrs. King if you go by volume.) So yeah, there were definitely O'Hare detractors who were glad to see him go. But I think most fans still had PTSD from Laurel Takashima and didn't really notice the uneven bits of his performances. That, and was playing a character with significant trauma, so a distanced performance played better than it might have with a Sheridan style character. Milkfred E. Moore posted:AFAIK, the only people who knew were the people in the room with O'Hare and JMS when O'Hare decided he had to stop. I think it was those two and one other. Doug Netter, maybe? I didn't remember anyone else being in the room when O'Hare and JMS had their talk, but nobody said a word until after O'Hare had passed on. The rest of the cast had no idea during the series, though I'm fairly sure JMS let them know well before revealing it to the fans at ComicCon. bartolimu fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Aug 5, 2018 |
# ? Aug 5, 2018 01:47 |
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pentyne posted:Was anyone aware of O'Hare's schizophrenia before JMS revealed it a few years ago after O'Hare died? As frequently as it's mentioned there was never any criticism or disregard for his performance and exit and everyone I feel that everyone just assumed there was "creative differences" and things ended up working out. The news reports at the time suggested that PTEN told Straczynski to change the lead actor or else the show would be canceled. At the time, he obfuscated, saying that it was always part of the plan to move Sinclair to a background role and introduce a new "soldier" commander of the station (which everyone with half a brain could see was PR spin). I don't know when he told the cast, though; in Jerry Doyle's extensive interview with Kenneth Plume (which was around ... 2002-ish, I think), Doyle simply said that O'Hare was a very intense guy and not always the easiest to work with, and insisted that O'Hare had been fired. Granted, Doyle and reality weren't always exactly on the same page.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 02:08 |
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skooma512 posted:It really does boggle the mind that these creative types intend to tell a narrative.... but fly totally by the seat of their pants episode to episode and end up painting themselves into corners. This is how literally all writing works. You don't see it in books because you can edit, but TV doesn't have that luxury. JMS having ten years to noodle on his ideas before he could get his show on the air was a very unusual situation. A good one, but abnormal. And even then, B5 is quite different from what he planned. Even the most dedicated outliners change their stories a lot in editing. TV is terrifying without that ability.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 03:13 |
Grand Fromage posted:And even then, B5 is quite different from what he planned. And better for it, IMO.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 04:08 |
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:And better for it, IMO. Very much so; I borrowed the script books from a friend of mine last year, and, yeesh, that original plan / outline was a goddamn mess. Don't get me wrong, B5 is still a shameless ripoff of Lord of the Rings (and I don't believe Straczynski for a second when he says things like he'd never seen an episode of Homicide when talking about the editing of Sheridan's interrogation), but the real-life circumstances made it a better show. Except for O'Hare's departure. God drat do I hate Bruce Boxleitner.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 06:51 |
Timby posted:Don't get me wrong, B5 is still a shameless ripoff of Lord of the Rings (and I don't believe Straczynski for a second when he says things like he'd never seen an episode of Homicide when talking about the editing of Sheridan's interrogation), but the real-life circumstances made it a better show. I've always been of the mind that the creator of a work is the last person you should believe when it comes to anything said about it. That's not to call a JMS (Or Lucas or whoever else) a liar but they're always going to present their work in the best possible light. JMS is one of the more notorious for that sort of 'understandable chicanery,' IMO. He can't exactly come out and say, hey, Sinclair was kind of pivotal to my whole plot and now everything's kind of messed up. We like our stories to emerge fully-formed from the godhead, after all. Timby posted:God drat do I hate Bruce Boxleitner. What is this heresy?
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 07:06 |
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bartolimu posted:(Fun fact: Boxleitner was in 89 episodes of Scarecrow and Mrs. King and 88 eps of B5, so he's still That Guy From Scarecrow and Mrs. King if you go by volume.) Boxleitner was also in three B5 TV movies and The Lost Tales, so he's not That Guy by volume.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 10:07 |
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Timby posted:Except for O'Hare's departure. God drat do I hate Bruce Boxleitner. I can understand preferring O'Hare, but... huh?
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 12:54 |
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:I can understand preferring O'Hare, but... huh? Boxleitner is a one-note actor who, in a show filled with low-rent actors, somehow stood out as being the worst. I mean, poo poo, he made Scoggins look competent. I get that people love lines like "NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!" but he delivers them with a level of cheese that would make the entire state of Wisconsin go, "Wait, God drat." And I've said it before, but if you want to get yourself into an alcoholic coma / develop acute liver failure, take a shot every time he says, "No ... nonononono." Holy gently caress.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 14:40 |
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Babylon 5 is taped stage theater. If you’re OK with that tone, then it’s no problem.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 16:01 |
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I mean, I have heard people make the same claims about Mira Furlan and in that case I nearly flip
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 16:01 |
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I only remember the nonono line once in the series. My liver can take it.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 16:06 |
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Timby posted:God drat do I hate Bruce Boxleitner. How dare you.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 16:25 |
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Timby posted:Boxleitner is a one-note actor who, in a show filled with low-rent actors, somehow stood out as being the worst. I mean, poo poo, he made Scoggins look competent. I get that people love lines like "NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!" but he delivers them with a level of cheese that would make the entire state of Wisconsin go, "Wait, God drat." He's pretty one-note, but I'm not sure he's the worst. Garibaldi might be my pick.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 16:32 |
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Pick posted:I mean, I have heard people make the same claims about Mira Furlan and in that case I nearly flip Boxleitner, Doyle, and Furlan all put in weak performances on B5, some of the latter might come down to her writing, but I was never really impressed with those characters' moments.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 16:39 |
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Panzeh posted:Boxleitner, Doyle, and Furlan all put in weak performances on B5, some of the latter might come down to her writing, but I was never really impressed with those characters' moments. Furlan had only just escaped from the breakup of Yugoslavia. I'm inclined to give her benefit of the doubt for having a strong accent. And Doyle was surprisingly good considering he'd been working as a stockbroker and his acting CV amounted to two walk-on guest appearances and a single two-episode gig.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 16:53 |
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I feel like Babylon 5 really perfectly bridges the old-fashioned sci fi with new sci fi, and the seams really show. Old sci fi was all about cheesy pontificating on the nature of abstract concepts that only half made sense, and weird gimmicky alien civilizations that were often undone by their own hubris. The idea of aliens on like a higher plane of existence or what have you is also a more old fashioned sci fi kinda thing. And then modern sci fi is all about a more down-to-earth pragmatic approach to things, where instead of being merely third-party observers, humanity is directly involved and the viewer is supposed to be emotionally invested in the drama, while setting details aren't just one-episode features or recurring guest roles, but ongoing worldbuilding that sticks around. So you have these actors who kinda talk like they're from the 50s while going about these dramatic issues because they're rapidly switching between drama, stilted philosophy, and lighthearted comedy. You have these ongoing wars that end in a bizarre hegelian dialogue on chaos vs order and an ancient alien who takes a weird patriarchal role towards all sentient life in the galaxy. There's this menagerie of aliens who occasionally have weird gimmicks to be introspective towards human nature, but they stick around forever (unless they're a praying mantis), and you have the brilliant Narn/Centauri situation. It makes B5 seem chintzy and cheesy at times, but it also gives a feeling of depth and expansiveness that modern sci fi tends to lack from its tighter focus and insistence on being serious most of the time.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:02 |
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I am so tired of apologizing for stuff in life, Babylon 5 is awesome and it's rad. It's really good, & I am proud to like it. Or at least totally at peace with liking it.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:07 |
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SlothfulCobra posted:There's this menagerie of aliens who occasionally have weird gimmicks to be introspective towards human nature, but they stick around forever (unless they're a praying mantis) Or G'Kar's aide.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:12 |
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Jedit posted:Or G'Kar's aide. Hey, they found her eventually .
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:13 |
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Hey, they found her eventually . No, she had an airlock accident.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:29 |
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Jedit posted:No, she had an airlock accident. Nope. Na'Toth turns up in season 5, having spent the past few years forgotten in the cells of the Centauri Royal Palace.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:31 |
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Nope. Na'Toth turns up in season 5, having spent the past few years forgotten in the cells of the Centauri Royal Palace. Look at this man, shamefully forgetting Ko'Dath.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:47 |
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Jedit posted:Furlan had only just escaped from the breakup of Yugoslavia. I'm inclined to give her benefit of the doubt for having a strong accent. And Doyle was surprisingly good considering he'd been working as a stockbroker and his acting CV amounted to two walk-on guest appearances and a single two-episode gig. Doyle was practically cast as himself, which helps a bit, though I wouldn't want to strip him of credit for his performance. He (and all of the main cast) make some really good acting choices, but only a few of the performers are extremely consistent across the show's five years. Even the best actors aren't convincing at every moment; movie actors get help in the sense that they have more takes and fewer hours on-screen. Honestly, after watching the "behind the scenes" footage of some of the rehearsal process, it's really telling the differences in acting and performance style between most of the human main-cast versus the aliens. Boxleitner, Doyle, and Christian drop character instantly when a scene is cut and they're constantly joking and laughing and conversing between set-ups. IIRC, we see a little footage of a scene with Furlan, and she stays mostly aloof and in-character. On the far end of the scale, stylistically, is Katsulas, who basically stayed in character for the whole shoot. B5 cast seem to get more heat for their performances with less nuance to the criticisms than the cast of several of the other big genre shows (Star Trek, BSG), and only rarely do the critics provide specifics that indicate they have any training in performance. Whenever a conversation starts along these lines, I am always quick to remind that directors have a great deal to do with the quality of performances that they get, whether it's by contradicting good choices (see Jurasik's story about getting JMS to intervene with a director in a scene with Cartagia where the director insisted he play it wrongly) or providing no guidance or feedback and moving on to the next take. Sometimes, infamously bad performances turn out to be down to the writing and direction. The most famous example that springs to mind is the "No, not the mind probe" line in The Five Doctors. At least one of DVD versions of that story has alternate takes of that scene, and you can compare between two takes they didn't use and the terrible line delivery we got on-screen. Both of the other takes on that line were better, not that it's easy to imagine any performer making it work in the context. The other problem in assessing performances is that sometimes the hardest acting jobs draw no attention at all if done successfully. Not everything can be "To be, or not to be." My favorite B5 example is the elevator scene in Thirdspace, where Jeff Conaway learned the whole scene at speed and delivered it in one take. That's not to take away from the obviously superlative acting also seen on the show, whether in the other elevator scene, or Choate's Zathras. It's just that viewers are more likely to be impressed with Choate's performance than with Forward's performance as Refa or with London's minister/regent.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 19:49 |
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Silly narsham, don't you know that good acting is glumly looking away from camera and mumbling?
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 20:01 |
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Timby posted:Boxleitner is a one-note actor who, in a show filled with low-rent actors, somehow stood out as being the worst. I mean, poo poo, he made Scoggins look competent. I get that people love lines like "NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!" but he delivers them with a level of cheese that would make the entire state of Wisconsin go, "Wait, God drat." Yeah he has his moments but he's a fine block of teak in a uniform most of the time.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 20:18 |
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Pick posted:I am so tired of apologizing for stuff in life, Babylon 5 is awesome and it's rad. It's really good, & I am proud to like it. Or at least totally at peace with liking it. I've never apologized for it in my life. I might make a caveat for the potential viewer about the way it's solidly rooted in the '90s, and set expectations about the style of acting and whatever. But it's unironically my favorite show of all time and I don't foresee it being surpassed.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 21:41 |
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:I've never apologized for it in my life. I might make a caveat for the potential viewer about the way it's solidly rooted in the '90s, and set expectations about the style of acting and whatever. But it's unironically my favorite show of all time and I don't foresee it being surpassed. Extremely same.
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 21:48 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 06:52 |
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The acting seems stilted at times, but it's hard to tell how much of that is writing and directing as well as the actor's fault. Hell, there's even a degree of generational separation where the medium of television has changed a lot since then (while it was harkening very strongly towards 60s and 70s shows as well). The top of my issues with Boxleitner is his pronunciation of the word "bear". Even now, it haunts me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oStG9DI0q3g
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# ? Aug 5, 2018 21:54 |