D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Andrast posted:

I'm pretty sure every system lets you make stuff up

Galaxy brain: Only D&D lets you make stuff up if you only play D&D.

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Aug 5, 2018

# ? Aug 5, 2018 11:17

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# ? May 29, 2024 21:24

Kaysette: Jan 5, 2009; ~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

D&D is best when the DM ignores the $150+ books of rules they�ve purchased.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 12:01

Section Z: Oct 1, 2008; Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?; Pillbug

AlphaDog posted:

Galaxy brain: Only D&D lets you make stuff up if you only play D&D.

To try for devils advocate. This mentality could possibly be down to the rear end backwards nature of "No rules to even cover it" vs "Sorry, Edge of the Empire says I HAVE to screw you over for attempting to pick a lock with a credit chip" going too far in the wrong direction?

"Rules to allow more options" can sometimes result in instead stifling attempts with "Sorry, the rules say you can ONLY get one of these five bonuses or results in making poo poo up". While not nearly enough rules encourages people just shrugging and going with what seems cool at the time from lack of better options.

We definitely need more advice and guidelines to encourage how to wing it in DnD of any edition. Because "It's cool because we ignored the book" isn't much of a sales pitch. But going too far in the opposite direction just can turn it into "Well, the chart says-" rather than the sales pitch of "X system lets you make poo poo up".

Section Z fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Aug 5, 2018

# ? Aug 5, 2018 13:58

Gharbad the Weak: Feb 23, 2008; This too good for you.

Where's the person who always brings up freeform roleplaying right about now, this is a good time for it

# ? Aug 5, 2018 14:23

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

Section Z posted:

To try for devils advocate. This mentality could possibly be down to the rear end backwards nature of "No rules to even cover it" vs "Sorry, Edge of the Empire says I HAVE to screw you over for attempting to pick a lock with a credit chip" going too far in the wrong direction?

"Rules to allow more options" can sometimes result in instead stifling attempts with "Sorry, the rules say you can ONLY get one of these five bonuses or results in making poo poo up". While not nearly enough rules encourages people just shrugging and going with what seems cool at the time from lack of better options.

We definitely need more advice and guidelines to encourage how to wing it in DnD of any edition. Because "It's cool because we ignored the book" isn't much of a sales pitch. But going too far in the opposite direction just can turn it into "Well, the chart says-" rather than the sales pitch of "X system lets you make poo poo up".

This is veering into the Matt Colville school of bad design apologism, where 5e's rules being vague and poorly written is A Good Thing(tm) because it encourages DMs to make poo poo up rather than get lost within the confines of the rulebook.

That's nonsense. Good Systems tell you - if you needed to be told - that tabletop roleplaying is at the fundamental level a dialogue between the DM and the players and each other, and that while rules exist to facilitate play by establishing a framework of expectations and guidelines to resolve actions, it's the people that are the ultimate arbitrators of what happens. And, this is also key, Good Systems organically provide avenues to encourage creativity and human decision-making for aspects of the rules where establishing mechanical nuance would just be counter-productive.

The contrast you're describing generally only appears in the wild if you went from 3.PF which is a garbage simulationist system, to 5e which is a serviceable but flawed crunchy system trying to masquerade as rules light, with 4e as a possible in-between step that peeled off the embellishments to show that the combat crunch parts are a boardgame rather than an analog extension of the roleplay. The "I've only ever played D&D" experience, in other words.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 15:20

golden bubble: Jun 3, 2011; yospos

Gharbad the Weak posted:

Where's the person who always brings up freeform roleplaying right about now, this is a good time for it

I agree with ProfessorCirno on this.

ProfessorCirno posted:

I've made too many god awful effort posts about this in the Pillars of Eternity thread, but basically, what it boils down to, is that all mechanical anythings in a game engine have two purposes: being used to mechanically interact with the game, and making declarations about your character. D&D is loving terrible at the latter, but really good at the former, especially due to its cultural position.

I wager the vast majority of people who enjoy D&D do so while using very few of the rules, if not none of the rules at all. There's a reason why so many people declare that their best games don't even involve rolling a die, and why there's such a strong connection between "roleplaying" and "not engaging in combat."

What people enjoy isn't D&D in of itself. What they enjoy is largely freeforming with a character sheet.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 16:59

Azhais: Feb 5, 2007; Switchblade Switcharoo

I don't see how "Freeforming with a character sheet" has anything to do with D&D. That's just "roleplaying" and is as valid in D&D as literally any other game system

# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:05

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

Azhais posted:

I don't see how "Freeforming with a character sheet" has anything to do with D&D. That's just "roleplaying" and is as valid in D&D as literally any other game system

Yes, that's the argument being made in that post - people associate with D&D an experience that is in no way exclusive to the system, but that is attached to it by virtue of its cultural context.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Aug 5, 2018

# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:09

Section Z: Oct 1, 2008; Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?; Pillbug

Conspiratiorist posted:

This is veering into the Matt Colville school of bad design apologism, where 5e's rules being vague and poorly written is A Good Thing(tm) because it encourages DMs to make poo poo up rather than get lost within the confines of the rulebook.

That's nonsense. Good Systems tell you - if you needed to be told - that tabletop roleplaying is at the fundamental level a dialogue between the DM and the players and each other, and that while rules exist to facilitate play by establishing a framework of expectations and guidelines to resolve actions, it's the people that are the ultimate arbitrators of what happens. And, this is also key, Good Systems organically provide avenues to encourage creativity and human decision-making for aspects of the rules where establishing mechanical nuance would just be counter-productive.

The contrast you're describing generally only appears in the wild if you went from 3.PF which is a garbage simulationist system, to 5e which is a serviceable but flawed crunchy system trying to masquerade as rules light, with 4e as a possible in-between step that peeled off the embellishments to show that the combat crunch parts are a boardgame rather than an analog extension of the roleplay. The "I've only ever played D&D" experience, in other words.

I've just found most random people on the internet real excited about their "Better for doing what you want!" systems to go stupid in the head and hate anybody trying something not stringently regulated, or fitting their world view. But keep on keeping with "CLEARLY only people who have played NOTHING but DnD would think-"

HERO mentioned some posts back lets you build a crapload of stuff. I got to make things ranging from alien power rangers, ghost knife intangible dues, and spending 2/3 of my points on making a peak human Intellect and dexteity vegas stage magician, and 1/3 transforming into "What if, Collossus was a Xenomoroph". On paper it's a loving amazing option for creativity, if you are willing to put up with algebra equations in most steps of chargen.

But holy gently caress was my experience across several GM an amazing maze of invisible house rules whether I tried something creative or explicitly listed. Build a ranged attack as a physical gun? Of course people try to disarm you and steal it. But the GM's brains will break if you try to let a party member borrow it. Try to swing a park bench even looking up the rules for scenery based combat (and doing half the damage of simply punching with super strength)? "But you didn't buy a reach attack! cut that out!" Trying to BUY A FLASHLIGHT at the convenience store while the tier of gameplay has "Mundane objects are free" rules, "but you didn't pay points for that!"

Now that's hardly HERO's fault. But if it lived up to the hype of "More rules=more better" it wouldn't have been a problem in the first place.

It's not that "Less rules/dumb rules are great!" which is some Mike Mearls garbage. It's my disappointment in how often more guidelines instead turn into an ironic hell holding you back, or being held up as the "reason" why you can't do X despite the system saying you should.

It's right to poo poo on an assumption that ALL you need is "To make poo poo up". DnD (and more) DO need better guidelines overall.

But treating a bunch of extra rules as the magic bullet for out of the box thinking actions is as much, or even more naive.

Or at the very least, creates an odd contrast of "Experiences making things up as you go in DnD doesn't count! It doesn't have the rules for it... Oh, but experiences in not being allowed to make things up in System with rules for it ALSO don't count!"

Section Z fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Aug 5, 2018

# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:41

Mendrian: Jan 6, 2013

Section Z posted:

"Rules to allow more options" can sometimes result in instead stifling attempts with "Sorry, the rules say you can ONLY get one of these five bonuses or results in making poo poo up". While not nearly enough rules encourages people just shrugging and going with what seems cool at the time from lack of better options.

Sorry but no. This is the second time someone has brought up Edge of the Empire in an attempt to tear down the idea of rules helping; and suggests those rules are somehow more restrictive.

Success in EotE let's you Do the Thing; and Advantage helps you Do a Thing You Didn't Plan On. The mechanical expression of this is 'you gain a bonus to a future roll or gain an additional piece of information' but that's hardly a straightjaket. That's a generic expression of how Good Resource can be spent.

'Improvisation' is much broader and fiddly than most people give it credit for. Improvising a character's actions is one; improvising an interpretation of the rules, is another. EotE gives the GM and players lots of tools for creatively interpreting dice. It is not an example of, 'no you can't do that because this chart doesn't say you can.'

EotE: Really EotE just gives you more tea leaves to read and better tools for reading them.

Mendrian fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Aug 5, 2018

# ? Aug 5, 2018 17:46

P.d0t: Dec 27, 2007; I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

For some reason I was just randomly thinking this train of thought, before I clicked into the thread, so I'll just say:

Probably the best you can ask for is when the rules facilitate everything you want from play, such that the system gets out of the way (insert your car/gun/whatever analogy of choice here.) And then any improvising on the part of the DM or players is more along the lines of, "ok, this isn't within the rules, but let's build a little something that we can add on top, just to make things interesting."

I also love it (in an :allears:

type of way) when DMs tell me "I like 5e, it's a nice simplification of 3.5" but then go on to say things like (actual quotes):

"I don�t use CR really. I make up most of my creatures during the session. They have floating stats until I need to use one of them. Then I write it down."
"my monsters have powers that the players can�t get just like the players have powers the monsters don�t get." (preceded by, of course) "I skipped 4e."
"My players used to get mad like �That�s not how this spell works! They can�t do that thing!� But eventually they calmed down once they saw that the way I run things makes for great scenes. Rules are meant to be broken!"

It's like saying "I love how simple this system is, except the parts that are complicated; those I just ignore, and replace with whatever made-up poo poo I feel is appropriate." Which probably works if you're the typical [DM who has run 3.5 since forever ago] but there's basically no way to learn that, aside from years and years of trial and error.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 18:38

Novum: May 26, 2012; That's how we roll

P.d0t posted:

It's like saying "I love how simple this system is, except the parts that are complicated; those I just ignore, and replace with whatever made-up poo poo I feel is appropriate." Which probably works if you're the typical [DM who has run 3.5 since forever ago] but there's basically no way to learn that, aside from years and years of trial and error.

Agreed that by default 5e doesn't teach you how to run good games. The biggest thing that it has going for it is the huge very active community that help each other iron out the bullshit. Much like we do here.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 19:13

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

I'd argue the bulk of the 5e community works hard on reinforcing the bullshit, convincing you it's good for your skin if you smear it all over yourself and that you get used to the smell after a while.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 20:07

Novum: May 26, 2012; That's how we roll

Let me nip that in the bud then and say "you win the argument" because I'm way not interested in fighting any battles about boardgames. Always seemed to me like all those dnd talking head style personalities are at least trying to help.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 20:35

Firstborn: Oct 14, 2012; i'm the heckin best
yeah
yeah
yeah
frig all the rest

new poppin hot fresh take: some things in 5e are good; others are bad

# ? Aug 5, 2018 20:48

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Firstborn posted:

new poppin hot fresh take: some things in 5e are good; others are bad

sell this to popeye's for $2.99

# ? Aug 5, 2018 20:51

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

Novum posted:

Let me nip that in the bud then and say "you win the argument" because I'm way not interested in fighting any battles about boardgames. Always seemed to me like all those dnd talking head style personalities are at least trying to help.

I'm not saying they aren't trying, and sometimes there's good advice in there, but you should be automatically suspicious of anyone proselytizing a particular product and especially when it's a matter of audience or direct revenue stream for them.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 20:58

doctor 7: Oct 10, 2003; In the grim darkness of the future there is only Oakley.

Kaysette posted:

D&D is best when the DM ignores the $150+ books of rules they�ve purchased.

D&D is best when you play by the rules about 70% of the time when they work.

Them the other 20% of the time just asking a player what they want to do and decide how that will work as best you can.

The other 10% you should just say that poo poo works if it's a good idea and their character should reasonably be able to do it no problem.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 21:33

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

doctor 7 posted:

D&D is best when you play by the rules about 10% of the time when they work.

Them the other 20% of the time just asking a player what they want to do and decide how that will work as best you can.

The other 70% you should just say that poo poo works if it's a good idea and their character should reasonably be able to do it no problem.

That's better.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 21:55

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Splicer posted:

That's better.

Or you just pick a game where you're not fighting the rules and play by them 100% of the time because they work for you.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 21:57

Andrast: Apr 21, 2010

Arivia posted:

Or you just pick a game where you're not fighting the rules and play by them 100% of the time because they work for you.

I haven�t found a game like that yet

(not defending 5e here)

# ? Aug 5, 2018 22:03

Strom Cuzewon: Jul 1, 2010

doctor 7 posted:

D&D is best when you play by the rules about 70% of the time when they work.

Them the other 20% of the time just asking a player what they want to do and decide how that will work as best you can.

The other 10% you should just say that poo poo works if it's a good idea and their character should reasonably be able to do it no problem.

It's still pretty cool that the rules are flexible enough for you to hack bits out and houserule on the fly and the game still kinda holds together.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 22:05

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Strom Cuzewon posted:

It's still pretty cool that the rules are flexible enough for you to hack bits out and houserule on the fly and the game still kinda holds together.

I took out the load supporting encounter balancing rules and replaced them with these numbers look pretty. This is gonna work right SA? I'm gonna get all the ladies?

# ? Aug 5, 2018 22:09

Andrast: Apr 21, 2010

Arivia posted:

I took out the load supporting encounter balancing rules and replaced them with these numbers look pretty. This is gonna work right SA? I'm gonna get all the ladies?

Nothing gets the ladies hot for you like bad dnd homebrew rules

# ? Aug 5, 2018 22:12

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Andrast posted:

Nothing gets the ladies hot for you like bad dnd homebrew rules

hubba hubba

# ? Aug 5, 2018 22:19

Tendales: Mar 9, 2012

The difference between load-bearing rules and cosmetic rules is a really good point. A good DMG really should have advice for how to tell the difference between one and the other, and how to tell what rules are safe to change to whatever and which rules are tugging at the loose end of a sweater if you try to mess with them.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 22:33

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Arivia posted:

Or you just pick a game where you're not fighting the rules and play by them 100% of the time because they work for you.

If you look closely at my post you may find a secret!

# ? Aug 5, 2018 22:53

P.d0t: Dec 27, 2007; I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

so the DM for a game I'm joining up with threw this wrinkle at me:

quote:

You can have a weapon of your choice (masterwork, +1 to hit, 2 slots for the jewels) and a suit of armor that is also masterwork (no disadvantage on stealth checks and one extra point of max dex, one slot for a jewel). You also get two jewels to start. One is a +1 enhancement bonus the other is an elemental type of your choice from the following: fire, cold, lightening. In a weapon you get +1d6 damage. In armor (or a shield) it Grant's resistance

So what's my best bet on damage type/resistance? Which vulnerabilities/damage types show up most often, in the MM/VGtM?

# ? Aug 5, 2018 22:59

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Strom Cuzewon posted:

It's still pretty cool that the rules are flexible enough for you to hack bits out and houserule on the fly and the game still kinda holds together.

You can houserule any game, it's just that in a well written game your hack-job spitballing stands out like a sore thumb while in D&D it fits right in. That's not flexibility. A flexible system is one that actively facilitates you by providing you with the tools and/or advice and/or guidelines and/or hooks required to make your houserules good.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 23:23

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Splicer posted:

If you look closely at my post you may find a secret!

I saw what you did jimmy bones

And yeah, you could make 5e houserules but you have to be really really good at reading the bad system and making it work for you. I'm doing a bunch of extra work for a Pathfinder game (also not a flexible easy to house rule system) and it's fitting alright, but I know where to look for everything and how every single thing I change may cascade to other things. (Like how Pathfinder actually has no guidance anywhere for making encounter tables but the entire worldbuilding system falls apart if you don't do d% tables with the hardest encounters at the top.)

Arivia fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Aug 5, 2018

# ? Aug 5, 2018 23:32

DalaranJ: Apr 15, 2008; Yosuke will now die for you.

I�m not sure I�ve seen any version of D&D, clone, heartbreaker, or PF that had encounter table guidelines beyond, �30% above level 30% below level�. That would be a good product to put out if I could decide what game to claim it was compatible with.

# ? Aug 5, 2018 23:55

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

I've said this before, but one of the easiest ways to add flexibility to a system (and also easily make rules calls) is to add a good bennie system. "Can I do <possibly game breaking thing>?" "Sure, spend a bennie for the normal benefit and also to make it work like that".

# ? Aug 6, 2018 00:33

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

DalaranJ posted:

I�m not sure I�ve seen any version of D&D, clone, heartbreaker, or PF that had encounter table guidelines beyond, �30% above level 30% below level�. That would be a good product to put out if I could decide what game to claim it was compatible with.

It used to be more common but faded out in 3.5 on. Do it with 5e for the biggest audience, that's where the money seems to be these days.

# ? Aug 6, 2018 00:35

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

P.d0t posted:

So what's my best bet on damage type/resistance? Which vulnerabilities/damage types show up most often, in the MM/VGtM?

Fire resistance is by far the most common followed by Lightning, and they're likewise the most common damage types enemies will inflict (honestly the scariest depending on level, because of Fireball/Lightning Bolt). What's your character, anyhow?

# ? Aug 6, 2018 01:19

NeurosisHead: Jul 22, 2007; NONONONONONONONONO

Splicer posted:

I've said this before, but one of the easiest ways to add flexibility to a system (and also easily make rules calls) is to add a good bennie system. "Can I do <possibly game breaking thing>?" "Sure, spend a bennie for the normal benefit and also to make it work like that".

What do you think of the AGE system and the stunt dice that it uses for that? I haven't had a chance to play with it, but looks cool reading about it.

# ? Aug 6, 2018 01:19

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

NeurosisHead posted:

What do you think of the AGE system and the stunt dice that it uses for that? I haven't had a chance to play with it, but looks cool reading about it.

the issue with AGE's stunt dice is that it's uncontrolled and not on-demand, compared to a direct "benny"

# ? Aug 6, 2018 01:28

DalaranJ: Apr 15, 2008; Yosuke will now die for you.

Arivia posted:

It used to be more common but faded out in 3.5 on. Do it with 5e for the biggest audience, that's where the money seems to be these days.

Hmm, if it's a feature of 2e I look forward to reading about it in the F&F of For Gold and Glory.

# ? Aug 6, 2018 01:48

Slippery42: Nov 10, 2011

P.d0t posted:

So what's my best bet on damage type/resistance? Which vulnerabilities/damage types show up most often, in the MM/VGtM?

Years ago, someone tallied up all creatures in the MM who had resistance and immunity to various types of damage, as well as how many creatures dealt that damage type. Going by this, lightning is your best bet offensively and fire is your best defensively. Not sure if Volo's and Mordenkainen's follows this trend or tries to even them out, but if your DM mostly pulls from the MM, there you go.

Another thing to think about might be what your character's save proficiencies look like. Most things that deal fire and lightning damage force Dex saves. If you're an Evasion-haver and/or have a high bonus to your Dex saves, cold might be a better bet to cover what's likely to be a blind spot in your defenses since a lot of sources of cold damage target Con.

# ? Aug 6, 2018 03:57

Novum: May 26, 2012; That's how we roll

Looks to me like force is best here

# ? Aug 6, 2018 04:00

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# ? May 29, 2024 21:24

Kaysette: Jan 5, 2009; ~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

Sorlock supremacy :smugwizard:

How are angels and poo poo not immune to radiant damage?

# ? Aug 6, 2018 04:16

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