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I just don't see how people can like it so much. Of all the Trek Shows, it lived up to its potential the least.
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Aug 6, 2018 15:42
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marktheando posted:It’s true, I know a guy who is a big Star Trek fan who goes to conventions with his wife, has the uniforms etc. He loves Voyager the most of any Treks. One of the smartest people I know is a huge Voyager fan and can barely get through DS9.
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Aug 6, 2018 15:43
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Cojawfee posted:I just don't see how people can like it so much. Of all the Trek Shows, it lived up to its potential the least. It's the age they were when they first saw it.
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Aug 6, 2018 15:44
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Cojawfee posted:I just don't see how people can like it so much. Of all the Trek Shows, it lived up to its potential the least. General audiences don’t care about that. They could tune in to Voyager any week and enjoy it, versus actually having to follow and pay attention to DS9. In a way, Braga was right, but only because DS9 was ahead of the curve when it came to serialized drama.
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Aug 6, 2018 15:44
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Yeah DS9 and Babylon 5 are both for nerds, which we are. And by nerds I mean actual nerds, not "every single part of pop culture" which is what nerd means now I guess
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Aug 6, 2018 15:46
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Pick posted:It's the age they were when they first saw it. Yes the Voyager fan I mentioned is younger than the average goon. He also likes the Star Wars prequels.
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Aug 6, 2018 15:46
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The Star Wars prequels are good though
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Aug 6, 2018 15:49
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Voyager had the benefit of having a lot of clearly named characters who had like one unique trait, making it super marketable. DS9 (the best trek) went ahead and made a bunch of characters have multiple dimensions and unique traits, as opposed to This One's B'elanna, She Got A Wrinklehead
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Aug 6, 2018 16:08
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Jeb! Repetition posted:What? Is this set real? Is part of it matte or newly added CGI? This is from like 50 pages ago, but I don't think anyone answered the question. This is (at least partly) an outdoor set located at Vasquez Rocks that was originally built for the short-lived series Tales of the 77th Bengal Lancers. It hung around for about 15 years and was used for a bunch of crap before being demolished. You can find more info here: https://scvhistory.com/scvhistory/lw3045.htm Shart Carbuncle fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 16:10
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Voyager was also the flagship of UPN, which as the fifth network had a lot of visibility, as Paramount and Chris-Craft invested a metric gently caress-ton of money into marketing it. DS9 was on syndication, but due to not being nearly as popular as TNG, its airtimes were rather consistently hosed around with depending on the market. I think I mentioned this a few pages ago, but WGN in Chicago didn't actually show The Way of the Warrior--you know, the episode that was so important that it needed to kick off the fourth season with good ratings lest Paramount consider canceling it--until midnight on a Saturday because of a Cubs game, the local news and some other syndicated programming. I also think the serialization argument about DS9 is ... incomplete. It certainly wasn't ahead of the curve of that in television--Dallas had really pioneered the concept with its second season, Hill Street Blues and to a lesser extent LA Law had refined it, and even at that point in the '90s Homicide: Life on the Street was turning it into an art form. Where DS9 broke the mold is that it had story arcs and unlike those other shows, it wasn't on a network, it was syndicated, meaning it could be on any one of a dozen channels and hard to follow. Like, "The Visitor" makes no sense and carries no emotional resonance whatsoever if you haven't been watching the show from the beginning, but if you were in Chicago, like I was, it was nearly impossible to follow the drat show because the time slot shifted seemingly every other week. Timby fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 16:13
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Whalley posted:Voyager had the benefit of having a lot of clearly named characters who had like one unique trait, making it super marketable. DS9 (the best trek) went ahead and made a bunch of characters have multiple dimensions and unique traits, as opposed to This One's B'elanna, She Got A Wrinklehead The characters also grow and change so if you see S7 Nog today and S1 Nog tomorrow you might be confused if you weren't paying attention. I dunno, I don't want to s its d too hard because I think DS9 ran into a lot of issues with its arcs and I actually prefer it when it's focused more on character interactions and less Dominion War/overall Epic Space Battles, but it was doing something other treks weren't and it has a lot to recommend it. My favorite along with TOS but they're super different shows. Until recently TNG was my favorite since it's the one I grew up with, but I've grown out of it more than I thought when I went back to watch some of it again.
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Aug 6, 2018 16:39
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It would really be baffling if Voyager were the most popular Trek of the '90s. But it's not, TNG is, by a long shot. DS9 & Voyager duke it out for a distant second, and Voyager wins due to a number of factors including better marketing. (DS9 was almost never the only Trek show on the air, and was also never fully backed by a legit network.)
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Aug 6, 2018 16:44
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Pick posted:It's the age they were when they first saw it. My wife first watched Voyager when she was 25 or so I think, she's not a native English speaker so she didn't watch any Star Trek until we met. I wouldn't say Voyager is her favorite but she's a staunch apologist for it. She loves TNG and DS9 so at least there's that.
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Aug 6, 2018 16:48
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Something important to bear in mind is... uhmhmhmhmhm I'm going to try to think about how to explain this. Different groups of people feel differently about media especially with respect to its potential versus its realized quality. And not to be all gendered about it, but as someone torn between two worlds (i.e. a person who posts on Something Awful and muthafuckin tumblr) it feels to me like generally female-dominated media spaces are more comfortable with things having potential even if it's not realized because they're often playing in the space. You know, making "alternate universe" fanfictions where everyone works at a Honda dealership or whatever. Whereas the conversations in places like this (mostly dudes, possessing a dude quality) are extremely grounded in the is of the media property, and the potential is mostly used as a basis for critique. I sometimes wonder if that's because women are used to having total garbage for media and then that's how we deal but who knows. But it does mean that I perceive these two groups of people as having had a totally different experience in watching Voyager, or any other Trek.
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Aug 6, 2018 16:55
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Plothole: Data is a lieutenant Commander, but this Data episode is called the ensigns of command. Am I to believe he was demoted to Ensign Commander?
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Aug 6, 2018 17:00
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Plothole: Data is a lieutenant Commander, but this Data episode is called the ensigns of command. He's a Lieutenant Ensign.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:01
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I've discussed this with some folks in the past, but I'm someone who is very into the meta aspect of shows and books and stuff. Like I find communities about media properties really interesting, because they're often so different, and their read on exactly the same material is often leagues apart. (You could make the same argument about how different sects interpret the Bible, I guess.) It's super fascinating. I mean, everyone watched the same show, so why does one group of people adore certain characters, situations, episodes and whatnot, and other people either hate it or (more interesting to me) totally ignore it? I don't remember which thread I mentioned it in, but for example, on Tumblr, people like and will defend Keiko and Kai Winn. But I've never seen a single reference to Vic. Not even no fanart, or no gifs, loving nothing--not a word. It's not that I'm deeply invested in that, personally, but it does make you wonder what experiences and values one community has versus another.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:02
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Pick posted:Until recently TNG was my favorite since it's the one I grew up with, but I've grown out of it more than I thought when I went back to watch some of it again. Re-watching Next Generation now, and I’m the opposite. This show holds up a lot better than I remember. I always thought it was just terrible for the first few seasons, with awkward grumpy Picard, and obviously rehashed original series plots, and chintzy papier-mâché landscapes etc. But it turns out that was just the first few episodes. It settled into its nice groove surprisingly quickly. I’m on season 2 now, and a lot of my old favourite episodes that I had attributed to later seasons are popping up. I still can’t stand Wesley, though, but I’ve realized that has more to do with Wil Wheaton’s acting than anything about the actual character. Granted, Wesley Crusher seems like a very challenging character to get right, but Wheaton isn’t up to the task. EDIT: Pick posted:You know, making "alternate universe" fanfictions where everyone works at a Honda dealership or whatever. I found myself theorizing which Star Trek races corresponded to which departments in an office workspace. Ferengi were purchasing. Cardassians were legal. Bajorans were that lady with three cat calendars who’s always trying to get you to come to their weird church services on weekends. Phylodox fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 17:05
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Crusher was my favorite character as a kid because I thought she was beautiful & smart & my hero, but looking back she's horribly under-utilized and it makes me sangry!!
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Aug 6, 2018 17:07
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He was added very late in the show and only appeared in a few episodes. Compared to Ezri who was apparently in every episode of season 7.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:07
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Cojawfee posted:He was added very late in the show and only appeared in a few episodes. Compared to Ezri who was apparently in every episode of season 7. Yeah but they're like making screenprinted totes of Keevan 
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Aug 6, 2018 17:12
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Pick posted:I don't remember which thread I mentioned it in, but for example, on Tumblr, people like and will defend Keiko and Kai Winn. But I've never seen a single reference to Vic. Not even no fanart, or no gifs, loving nothing--not a word. It's not that I'm deeply invested in that, personally, but it does make you wonder what experiences and values one community has versus another. Eh, I can understand that. You won't see anyone posting with passion about Vic because he's such a nothing. Keiko and Winn were more realised characters that people had emotions towards one way or the other, at least. Vic mostly comes up here when we're discussing the series from a production point of view, and I feel like Tumblr just isn't well suited for that kind of discussion simply by the way posts are handled. As a medium it's geared more towards expression than flowing conversation. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 17:15
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Plothole: Data is a lieutenant Commander, but this Data episode is called the ensigns of command. I can't quite tell if this is a jokepost or not, but in case it's not, it's a reference to... something which I can't remember right now and am too lazy to look up on Memory Alpha at the moment. Phylodox posted:Re-watching Next Generation now, and I’m the opposite. This show holds up a lot better than I remember. I always thought it was just terrible for the first few seasons, with awkward grumpy Picard, and obviously rehashed original series plots, and chintzy papier-mâché landscapes etc. But it turns out that was just the first few episodes. It settled into its nice groove surprisingly quickly. I’m on season 2 now, and a lot of my old favourite episodes that I had attributed to later seasons are popping up. I dunno, I think he's alright after the first season. I mean, I have a hard time faulting Wheaton when some of the writers (and directors!) loathed the character concept so much that they went out of their way to try and sabotage him. But yeah, as I mentioned upthread, one of my friends did a full rewatch of TNG a year or two ago after having not seen the show for over a decade, and she got a big kick out of the first couple of seasons. I've always found it easier to forgive the flaws of the first couple seasons, because it's way more interesting to see them throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks than the increasingly stuffy atmosphere of the last couple of seasons.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:20
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Cojawfee posted:He's a Lieutenant Ensign. That's a new directive from San Francisco. That's right out of G2 and G3 making a G5 Combined Officers Op-Tech Glitch. We're experimenting with a new rank: Lieutenant Ensign. We're down here taking a survey, to see, uh, you know, if everybody likes it, uh, asking everybody in the sector.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:21
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Also regarding Voyager's accessibility, I think another factor there is the money that went into the show itself - it's been a while since I sat down and watched Voyager, but my recollection is that it was fairly special-effects heavy for the time, even for a Star Trek show. It didn't feel cheap.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:26
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Also regarding Voyager's accessibility, I think another factor there is the money that went into the show itself - it's been a while since I sat down and watched Voyager, but my recollection is that it was fairly special-effects heavy for the time, even for a Star Trek show. It didn't feel cheap.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:32
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Also regarding Voyager's accessibility, I think another factor there is the money that went into the show itself - it's been a while since I sat down and watched Voyager, but my recollection is that it was fairly special-effects heavy for the time, even for a Star Trek show. It didn't feel cheap. As opposed to TNG season 7, which seems like it was thrown together with the leftover catering budget from DS9 and VOY’s preproduction.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:34
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Voyager started heavily models but moved to all CGI by the end. It was the first show that had lots of ship CGI in it from the start, though - the intro, for example, is 50/50. (and has missing textures on it, damnit. You'd think they'd fix it for the intro) DS9 had the famous CGI battle scenes, but it was still heavily model-based for other stuff. The last shot of the series is the only time DS9 itself was CGI in the whole thing, for example.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:36
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The Bloop posted:That's a new directive from San Francisco. That's right out of G2 and G3 making a G5 Combined Officers Op-Tech Glitch. We're experimenting with a new rank: Lieutenant Ensign. We're down here taking a survey, to see, uh, you know, if everybody likes it, uh, asking everybody in the sector. I don't have anything to add to this, but that's exactly where I was going.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:37
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I have been informed the bag reads "bitch"
Pick fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 17:39
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The Bloop posted:That's a new directive from San Francisco. That's right out of G2 and G3 making a G5 Combined Officers Op-Tech Glitch. We're experimenting with a new rank: Lieutenant Ensign. We're down here taking a survey, to see, uh, you know, if everybody likes it, uh, asking everybody in the sector. Well, I don't like it. I don't like it at all!
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Aug 6, 2018 17:41
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FlamingLiberal posted:DS9 starts with mostly using models like TNG did, but by the end it seems to be mostly CGI. I think Voyager was the first Trek show to primarily use CGI but i could be wrong DS9 does introduce CG stuff towards the end but it took awhile because it was expensive and looked a bit poo poo at first (think of the Bajoran sailing ship), and the VFX supervisor, Gary Hutzel, was generally opposed to its use — or at least to outsourcing it, and they didn’t have the resources to do it in house. From Sacrifice of Angels on though, they mostly used CG since that made big space battles with loads of ships way more doable. That was the breakthrough moment, most effects shots in Star Trek from then on are using CG models and not physical. So that’s the last two seasons of DS9, the last five of Voyager, and all of Enterprise.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:44
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Pick posted:Yeah but they're like making screenprinted totes of Keevan This owns and I want it.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:45
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Has anyone tried the Stage 9 Enterprise D simulator? It's amazing. Destroys the graphics card tho. The new version will be out soon, including Dixon Hill on the holodeck. It's incredible what these guys have done. It must be wonderful in VR
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Aug 6, 2018 17:47
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I've always found it easier to forgive the flaws of the first couple seasons, because it's way more interesting to see them throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks than the increasingly stuffy atmosphere of the last couple of seasons. Yeah, there is something somewhat more interesting about some of the zanier poo poo in the first couple of seasons, as opposed to ... I don't know, starting with season 5, maybe, where they began slavishly adhering to the A | B plot structure, resulting in so much bullshit. A Plot: The Enterprise is assigned to investigate a potential Romulan incursion at a previously contested planet. B Plot: Data experiments with masturbation for the first time.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:51
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Early TNG has many bad episodes but they deliberately erred on the side of being zany and weird. This week Riker gets to be a scantily clad sex object on planet !!feminism!!. This week Han Solo, that lovable rogue, is here to perpetrate lovable rogueries. This week, the conspiracy of the horrifying bug people who run the whole fleet apparently. Those aren’t muskets. Whatever the gently caress happened in Code of Honor. Late TNG had way fewer terrible episodes but they all melt together into a depressing blob of same old simulated beige trek product, even if the episodes themselves aren’t really bad. You still get weird stuff like Masks but it’s the exception.
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Aug 6, 2018 18:08
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Timby posted:A Plot: The Enterprise is assigned to investigate a potential Romulan incursion at a previously contested planet. Season 8, episode 3. “Emissions” I’d watch it.
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Aug 6, 2018 18:10
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Even so, none of the truly great TNG episodes came about until at least halfway through season two, and most of them are in the 'beige' era, so hey.
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Aug 6, 2018 18:11
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skasion posted:Late TNG had way fewer terrible episodes but they all melt together into a depressing blob of same old simulated beige trek product, even if the episodes themselves aren’t really bad. Later TNG rarely gets outright awful (although, seriously, gently caress you, Descent), but it feels more like decent background noise than anything else. Like, I'll turn on an episode if I'm getting bored of Cheers or Frasier or whatever on Netflix.
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Aug 6, 2018 18:11
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I love it when we turn to the subject of Voyager vs DS9, because you're guaranteed to hear about how much more popular Voyager is despite absolutely no evidence to support that claim. DS9 consistently beat Voyager in terms of ratings with the sole exception of Voyagers pilot. Voyager is more popular with the really hardcore "Genes Vision" fans and that's literally it.
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Aug 6, 2018 18:14
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