|
TheKingofSprings posted:Just loving print Force of Will into Modern already because we have enough evidence that this poo poo is going to happen again and again as long as they keep injecting more cards into the format 1000% agree.
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 16:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 05:10 |
|
|
The problem is once you reach a critical intersection of how poo poo a deck is to play against, how it uses an edge case in the rules, and how popular it is. I think with KCI we're probably about at that point that's going to make something give, especially given historical ban reasons re: poo poo taking too drat long.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 16:59
|
|
|
BaronVonVaderham posted:Is this the MTG rules equivalent of, "Criminals will just break the law anyway, so why bother making any?" It's more the MTG rules equivalent of making huffing paint fumes illegal but not heroin, or something. I'm bad at analogies.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:01
|
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:Just loving print Force of Will into Modern already because we have enough evidence that this poo poo is going to happen again and again as long as they keep injecting more cards into the format But fow helps combo decks! (Print fow)
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:03
|
|
|
is there any good reason why magic doesn't use a chess clock system?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:06
|
|
|
Das Butterbrot posted:is there any good reason why magic doesn't use a chess clock system? It would reveal how cumbersome the priority system is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:08
|
|
|
Das Butterbrot posted:is there any good reason why magic doesn't use a chess clock system? In a turn where neither player takes an action priority passes like 12 times. It's just not realistic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:10
|
|
|
Das Butterbrot posted:is there any good reason why magic doesn't use a chess clock system? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2LStqH4qu4
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:20
|
|
|
What would have to change about mana abilities in order to hinder KCI without banning a card?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:30
|
|
|
Jabor posted:Sure, just get rid of being able to activate mana abilities in the middle of something being cast or resolving, make people produce their mana beforehand. Paper can handle it just fine now that we have out-of-order sequencing and people aren't going to get DQd for putting a spell on the table before tapping their lands, and as a bonus it closes all sorts of other stupid loopholes with mana abilities.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:39
|
|
|
Entropic posted:It's kind of infuriating how maro's response so far has just been waffling about power levels and how it'll be fine once Play Design makes sure no more broken ones get released. Seriously, I want to know is what was wrong with the practice of printing an alt-art version of a good card from the set. It seemed to work fine when they did Restoration Angel in AVR and Supreme Verdict in RTR.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:39
|
|
|
Wizards' solution to combo decks they don't like in Modern tends to start with banning cantrips first, so I assume if they decide to do something about KCI it'll be banning the best cantrip in Modern, Ancient Stirrings
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:50
|
|
|
Elyv posted:Wizards' solution to combo decks they don't like in Modern tends to start with banning cantrips first, so I assume if they decide to do something about KCI it'll be banning the best cantrip in Modern, Ancient Stirrings RIP, like three different decks
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:53
|
|
|
Just slam Wheel of Sun and Moon. Funny against KCI targeting them, REALLY funny against lantern targeting yourself. Seriously stop asking for bans on everything for fucks sake. the deck in no way needs a ban. It's not Eldrazi levels of stupid.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:53
|
|
|
AnEdgelord posted:At least Storm is deterministic, can be interacted with and doesnt take advantage of any bizarre corner case rules interactions. I don't think storm is deterministic, since it can whiff pretty easily at any point in the cycle
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:54
|
|
|
Errant Gin Monks posted:Just slam Wheel of Sun and Moon. Why is that card seven dollars?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:54
|
|
|
mandatory lesbian posted:I don't think storm is deterministic, since it can whiff pretty easily at any point in the cycle You're right on traditional Storm but the current Storm plan in Modern is to cast Gifts and then win
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:56
|
|
|
mandatory lesbian posted:I don't think storm is deterministic, since it can whiff pretty easily at any point in the cycle The gifts loop in current storm puts you up 6 storm for nothing, it’s reasonably consistent
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:57
|
|
|
TheMaestroso posted:Seriously, I want to know is what was wrong with the practice of printing an alt-art version of a good card from the set. It seemed to work fine when they did Restoration Angel in AVR and Supreme Verdict in RTR. Yeah, it seems like if you want to use the promos to help move boxes, you don't need some special exclusive gimmick card, you just need to choose an obviously playable card from the set as the promo. They could have made the M19 promo Scapeshift or Crucible of Worlds. Or if they for some reason didn't want it to be a reprint, just pick some rare that's probably gonna be Standard or Modern playable like the Spirit lord, or Thorn Lieutenant or Resplendent Angel. Or one of the Elder Dragons. Of course if you look at the promos they chose before, they've kind of been on a losing streak of picking playable ones since about 2016. I mean the last one before they started doing exclusives was loving Captain's Hook in Rivals of Ixalan. Good job guys, that'll move boxes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 17:57
|
|
|
Elyv posted:Wizards' solution to combo decks they don't like in Modern tends to start with banning cantrips first, so I assume if they decide to do something about KCI it'll be banning the best cantrip in Modern, Ancient Stirrings That "here's why KCI should be banned" article from a few pages back floated Faithless Looting as a dark horse candidate for the next ban cycle. Which is funny overall because you end up down a card and funny in that context specifically because KCI doesn't even run Looting AFAIK.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 18:23
|
|
|
C-Euro posted:That "here's why KCI should be banned" article from a few pages back floated Faithless Looting as a dark horse candidate for the next ban cycle. Which is funny overall because you end up down a card and funny in that context specifically because KCI doesn't even run Looting AFAIK. Looting is one of the best designed cards Red has gotten in the past 20 years. No way does it deserve a ban in any format, ever.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 18:37
|
|
|
A chess-clock system for time-keeping is entirely viable if there are rules/procedure for short-cutting (e.g. IRL F6 when I can't do anything on your turn), and it's an entirely reasonable solution to time management at Comp./Prof. REL. E: The important part here is that players would have their own time as a resource to manage, rather than getting to consume a shared pool of time. The current state of the game means players who are efficient at managing their time/making decisions reward players who are not by giving them more time to play, and those same players punish average players by consuming more of the time in proportion.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 18:43
|
|
|
Isn't Ancient Stirrings the problem card?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 18:45
|
|
|
Hellsau posted:Of course not. If there wasn't historical precedent, they probably wouldn't post any MTGO lists either. That's garbage. I'm sad. Entropic posted:It's kind of infuriating how maro's response so far has just been waffling about power levels and how it'll be fine once Play Design makes sure no more broken ones get released. Make it a chase Modern reprint with alt art. They could've done Crucible and/or Scapeshift there, instead of taking up rare slots in the set itself for cards useless in Draft and Standard.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 18:47
|
|
|
Koirhor posted:Isn't Ancient Stirrings the problem card? Yes, in general, but not specifically for KCI which can still dig through its deck for five or ten minutes and fizzle without casting stirrings once.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
Silhouette posted:ahahahaha, apparently professional greaseball/owner of the wispiest bitch beard in history Jeremy Hambly/UnsleevedMedia got his poo poo pushed in at GenCon Hey, the video in the post seems to have been taken down, is there a mirror anywhere?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 19:00
|
|
|
Koirhor posted:Isn't Ancient Stirrings the problem card? I'm personally not reasonably convinced there is even a problem in the first place. Modern is fine.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 19:11
|
|
|
Mikujin posted:A chess-clock system for time-keeping is entirely viable if there are rules/procedure for short-cutting (e.g. IRL F6 when I can't do anything on your turn), and it's an entirely reasonable solution to time management at Comp./Prof. REL. So your solution to wasting time is to bring thousands of chess clocks to every tournament, make people mash them 6 times each minimum every turn assuming absolutely nothing happens plus at least 1 more time every time something does happen, introduce confusion and judge calls because "my opponent hit the clock when they still had priority," or "hey this clock isn't switching when I hit it," or whatever else can happen? That doesn't sound like a very good use of time or money.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 19:18
|
|
|
Kci being banned is not a question of power level but the logistical problems it creates for organized play. A similarly resilient and/or power level engine combo deck would be completely acceptable but KCI itself is a clusterfuck of a deck that should be nuked ASAP. Also a stirrings ban is a bad idea since it 1. Doesnt 100% kill kci and 2. Does far more damage to other decks than kci
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 19:18
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:KCI still functions without the "bizarre corner case rules interactions", and would still take long turns in inexperienced hands, it's just less consistent. When you had magic hall of famers on camera multiple times loving things up and being confused as poo poo as how their deck works, that is a problem.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 19:19
|
|
|
AnEdgelord posted:Kci being banned is not a question of power level but the logistical problems it creates for organized play. Its both honestly. One problem I specifically have had against the deck is that some pilots are attempting to play it really fast and loose. Players playing at 100mph, often performing illegal actions because the combo is so complex. I had a long judge call this weekend because an opponent wasn't keeping track of his available mana properly and just started to cast spells without mana about 4 actions deep before I could get him to loving stop and let me call a judge. Unfucking it was a mess.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 19:23
|
|
|
AnEdgelord posted:Kci being banned is not a question of power level but the logistical problems it creates for organized play. This is a stupid argument. "Because it's hard" is never a reason to ban a deck. I dont play KCI but I like to play against it. I have no problem asking the player to slow down and talk through the steps to make sure they are doing it right. Sickening posted:Its both honestly. That's just a stupid player that needs to be given a game loss, not an issue with the deck.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 19:50
|
|
|
Complicated combos should be allowed IMO and also really, really easily subject to game losses. Screw up your mana count in the middle? Misrepresent the game state? You lose, go to the next game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 20:00
|
|
|
GoutPatrol posted:When you had magic hall of famers on camera multiple times loving things up and being confused as poo poo as how their deck works, that is a problem. They should play a deck they understand then
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 20:00
|
|
|
Maybe it's just because I've been doing similar poo poo for the past several years in commander but KCI combo is not hard to execute or keep track of at all, the people who are loving it up at tournaments should just be handed game losses and move on imo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 20:02
|
|
|
KCI decks take 10+ minutes to resolve a turn which might NOT end a game in an era where most competitive settings allow decks 50 minutes to play three games. KCI is almost completely non-interactive, both ways. It’s almost impossible to interact with in a meaningful way once it gets going and it doesn’t even bother try to interact with it’s opponent in any meaningful way other then ‘kill you.’ KCI only exists because of rules holes that most players don’t know, making interacting with it even harder because most people don’t know how or where you can even ATTEMPT to meddle with it (often fruitlessly, but hey you tried) Even most pros are botching finishing plays with the deck because of the exploits in the rules the deck floats in. The only thing worse then watching KCI spin it’s wheels for 10 minutes only to not get there is to watch KCI spin it’s wheels for ten minutes only to not get there because it’s pilot flubs an interaction. This leads to players playing slower so they don’t screw up which no god no why nooooooooo So you’re stuck watching your opponent play solitaire Magic with a hand full of interaction that can’t actually interact with them and even if you win it’s probably because you caught them screwing up eight minutes into their turn, which you gotta watch the whole way because you can’t just assume you won’t get bamboozled if you just check out while they go about their business. KCI combo is cancer to play against, horrible to watch, and frustrating and draining to actually play. The fact that it’s hard to play has little to do with why it has to die.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 20:05
|
|
|
80s James Hetfield posted:Just concede any match when you realize you're playing the Fog deck....that'll show em There's a vignette from Infinite Jest about a tennis player who would show up to every match with a loaded gun and threaten to shot himself in the head if the opponent didn't concede. This worked over and over and he won tournament after tournament. Of course, all these victories were hollow and brought him no joy or actualization. What I'm saying people should snap concede to decks they hate as a form of protest to deprive the pilot of any satisfaction.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 20:15
|
|
|
Mr. Locke posted:KCI decks take 10+ minutes to resolve a turn which might NOT end a game in an era where most competitive settings allow decks 50 minutes to play three games. Play another game then. Taking Turns does the same loving thing. Lantern is awful. Blood moon can make you never play a card the whole game etc.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 20:16
|
|
|
All the same cards exist in Legacy yet are somehow not a loving problem, I wonder why Hmm HMM
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 20:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 05:10 |
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:All the same cards exist in Legacy yet are somehow not a loving problem, I wonder why Wasteland.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 20:25
|
|