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It seems like a long way of saying 'Some people are more confident in the dice-rolling part of the game than the improv part of the game, and roleplay-focused systems can be intimidating and aren't for everybody'. Seems mostly in counter to the previous common wisdom that too many rules and numbers will scare people off.
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Aug 7, 2018 06:54
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I think she's drawing a false equivalence between less crunch games and "do whatever you want wacky forum improv". I absolutely think that people can have fun and play crunchy mechanistic games (though D&D 5 is a terrible place to go for that). There's nothing wrong with that. But "narrative" or "rules light" is not the same as "freeform improv" - the same things she says can help in D&D can help in lighter games too - she just needs to play better lighter games than loving FATE.
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Aug 7, 2018 08:27
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Basically like 90% of lovely RPG opinions come from only ever playing 1 or 2 games and assuming they represent the entire meaningful experience the medium can ever have.
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Aug 7, 2018 08:53
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What’s an example of a mechanically crunchy game that’s better than say dnd4e? Hero system? Are we talking about numbers or number of things determined by the rules? I’m confused
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Aug 7, 2018 08:55
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Banana Man posted:What’s an example of a mechanically crunchy game that’s better than say dnd4e? Hero system? Are we talking about numbers or number of things determined by the rules? I’m confused Crunch isn't in and of itself a measure of gameplay quality. You can have ludicrously rules-heavy games that are garbage, and a lot of bad games are bad for this reason. 4E gets a lot of love around here for being a game whose crunch actually achieves very specific gameplay goals (let's ignore for a moment that it took three monster manuals or so to finally hit the sweet spot). A lot of games, generally the further you go back in history but even some modern ones do it, just kind of did design by ear. You had a long skill list because that's what other games had and they billed that as a realistic feature and by god you wanted your game to be realistic, not because there was any sort of actual meaningful point to having 100 skills. I think the quintessential modern day crunchy-but-bad game is Shadowrun. It's not bad because it's crunchy, it's bad because the crunch is in itself badly done. Shadowrun's beleaguered would-be fans don't usually enjoy rules-light adaptations of Shadowrun, they want robust mechanics, it's just that the ones being offered are frequently not done very well (admittedly a lot of that lack of quality is due to factors beyond raw design and into things like bad editing). On the other end of the spectrum, Blades In the Dark is somewhat mechanically heavier than most PbtA games which inspired it though it's far less mechanically complex than something like D&D4E, nonetheless it's a very good game because the rules it does have are tuned towards a particular set of goals and it achieves what it sets out to do, everything's got a point and a purpose and you don't have to spend a bunch of time hammering the dents out of it to get it to work or be worried that someone's going to inadvertently cause everything to break down completely because they picked the wrong set of abilities.
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Aug 7, 2018 09:36
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Banana Man posted:What’s an example of a mechanically crunchy game that’s better than say dnd4e? Hero system? Are we talking about numbers or number of things determined by the rules? I’m confused "Better than 4e" is kinda loaded like there are crunchy games I like better than 4e but I don't sit around thinking "This game is better than 4e" because that's absurd, it's pretty much a non-sequitur Like Pendragon, The One Ring, Ars Magica and Shadow of the Demon Lord are all crunchy games that achieve their stated goals and work well and if I was pressed I would probably say I liked them better than 4e but that doesn't make them "better" in the 1:1 way I think you mean
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Aug 7, 2018 09:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:this is a really good series of tweets
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Aug 7, 2018 09:58
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HERO System, and other point-buy games like GURPS or Mutants & Masterminds, seem like a bad fit for the kind of experience that the tweet is describing, precisely because it's a point-buy system rather than a tight, class-based model where both everything is laid out for you and your limits are more strictly defined. That kind of class design is expressed in old-school D&D, where you don't have to make ANY choices about your character, and as a result each class fits into their niche better compared to anything after AD&D where multi-classing and feats and all that stuff both create a level of analysis paralysis, and allow you to (try to) overcome your stereotypical weaknesses. PBTA also gets this concept quite well, since your abilities are generally limited by your playbooks and the possible outcomes that can be generated by their results. And those limits, in turn, push you towards behaving in a certain way to maximize your wheelhouse. Kai Tave posted:I think the quintessential modern day crunchy-but-bad game is Shadowrun. The funny thing is, Shadowrun by default also falls into that point-buy trap where you can throw a game askew by specializing in a few key skills.
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Aug 7, 2018 10:00
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gradenko_2000 posted:HERO System, and other point-buy games like GURPS or Mutants & Masterminds, seem like a bad fit for the kind of experience that the tweet is describing, precisely because it's a point-buy system rather than a tight, class-based model where both everything is laid out for you and your limits are more strictly defined. When I was younger and first getting into RPGs I thought that class systems were a drag for lame-o squares and point buy was obviously where it's at and while I don't dislike point buy systems these days per se it's kind of funny how my stance has basically reversed in that I find games with, as you say, strongly designed tight class-based design to have a lot more appeal and it seems like a lot of contemporary designers are working more in that space instead of trying to reinvent the Shadowrun-shaped wheel so I wonder if that's a pretty common trajectory, to start out thinking classes are bad and then later turning around and going "no wait, these can actually be good." Of course when I got into RPGs was during AD&D's heyday so, again as you said, class-based games looked like a hot fuckin' mess instead of something focused and elegant.
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Aug 7, 2018 10:05
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The idea that tabletop RPGs were as much math puzzle as storytelling medium is something I basically didn't question for the better part of a decade Fortunately I like math puzzles
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Aug 7, 2018 10:09
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I've got a really stupid question regarding a tabletop game mechanic. So my fiancee has that official my little pony tabletop game, Tails of Equestria, and she would very much so like me to GM it for her and whoever she can press into playing it with her. So there's this game mechanic in it that I think is pretty cool, it's tokens of friendship. So everyone starts with a set amount of tokens of friendship which are just little jewel doodads and you can use pretty much any kind of small trinket to fill in for them, be it those flat aquarium beads or tiny plastic crystal-lookin shapes or whatever, doesn't matter. Everybody has a quirk that isn't necessarily a negative trait but is there as a way of promoting more roleplay, a way of defining how a character would react to certain situations, whether that trait be something specifically negative like "kleptomaniac" or something positive but hindering like "overly concerned" or something that is just a defining trait about them like "is confined to a wheelchair" (I kid you not, the book mentions that as a possibility and has suggestions for handling more serious quirks like that and incorporating them). Anyway, if that quirk is invoked in a meaningful way (let's say that a character is afraid of ants and they've been put into a situation where they have to press a button, but the button is covered in ants, then chances are they are not going to press the button because of their quirk and their inability to do so will be meaningful. You can't just be like "well this pony is afraid of ants and whoops they thought about ants, quirk invoked!!!") then that player will receive a token of friendship. Another simple way to get tokens of friendship is to perform some kind of meaningful action of friendship, whether it be something more extreme and dramatic like taking a hit for someone or something still meaningful but not necessarily as...dramatic, like maybe loaning a player a cherished valuable for them to use, or something like that. The biggest method though is when players level up. All players level up at the same time based on whenever the GM decides that they should level up. Everyone who levels up will get an amount of friendship tokens equal to the number of players playing at that time + the GM, so a group of 3 players and 1 GM would get 4 tokens. In addition, if a new player joins the game, everybody will get an amount of tokens equal to the number of players playing. Anyway, let me explain what tokens actually do and why I think they are neat. They're basically a meta currency. Did someone flub a roll? They can spend some tokens to reroll. The amount of tokens needed depends on the difficulty and is ultimately up to the GM, but a given example is that a player performing a moderately difficult task could give 1 token to the GM in order to get a chance to reroll their dice, or give 2 tokens in order to get a chance to roll using a d20 instead (skill checks don't generally use d20s so by using a d20, you are giving yourself an advantage over the skill check), and giving 3 tokens would just let you pass the test without even rolling. Players can even use their tokens on each other as a way to cheer them on and provide help through the magic of friendship and poo poo like that. Another way that tokens can be used is that they can be given to the GM as a way to bribe them into altering the story in your favor. The example in the book mentions that a particular pony is at the market and they need to purchase rope that is necessary for the adventure, but they don't have the money. Give the GM enough tokens and the GM will note that the pony has just noticed some money on the ground that just so happens to add up to the exact amount of money required to purchase a rope. Alternatively, maybe the pony is already out on the adventure and realizes that that rope they didn't want to bring along would have been really useful but it is far too late for them to go back home to get it. You can throw tokens at the GM and the GM might say that the pony was mistaken, that they actually had the rope on them the entire time in their saddle pack. I really like the idea of players helping each other and getting rewarded with special tokens that can have an arbitrary value that changes from situation to situation solely for the purpose of helping the players push each other along through the adventure, whether by bribing the gm into altering events in their favor or just altering rolls. I'm wondering if there are any other games with a system like this, or maybe some similar system that Hasbro copied for this game, because I'd legit be surprised if the MLP game is the first one to ever have something like this in it. FirstAidKite fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Aug 7, 2018 |
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Aug 7, 2018 10:30
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FirstAidKite posted:I really like the idea of players helping each other and getting rewarded with special tokens that can have an arbitrary value that changes from situation to situation solely for the purpose of helping the players push each other along through the adventure, whether by bribing the gm into altering events in their favor or just altering rolls. I'm wondering if there are any other games with a system like this, or maybe some similar system that Hasbro copied for this game, because I'd legit be surprised if the MLP game is the first one to ever have something like this in it. There are a lot of games with metacurrencies which function similarly to this. Fate is maybe the most well known one, but there's a bunch of'em.
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Aug 7, 2018 10:38
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gradenko_2000 posted:PBTA also gets this concept quite well, since your abilities are generally limited by your playbooks and the possible outcomes that can be generated by their results. And those limits, in turn, push you towards behaving in a certain way to maximize your wheelhouse. A good example of the kind of thing I really think the author of those tweets should try because she dismisses everything rules lighter than D&D as not for her.
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Aug 7, 2018 10:43
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Kai Tave posted:There are a lot of games with metacurrencies which function similarly to this. Fate is maybe the most well known one, but there's a bunch of'em. Reminded of how healing surges can be used by some 4e groups, especially with an Artificer on hand. It's really good to encourage players to cooperate both tactically and mechanically. (though it can take some intervention because certain players will get overbearing in their attempts to 'help') One of 4e's biggest strengths is that the whole tactical gameplay isn't about just getting the most plusses and the best spells for yourself, but turning your party into a well-oiled machine. Amateurs try to optimise their characters, experts optimise the party.
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Aug 7, 2018 10:45
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Banana Man posted:What’s an example of a mechanically crunchy game that’s better than say dnd4e? Hero system? Are we talking about numbers or number of things determined by the rules? I’m confused I don't know about "better than 4E" but she was talking about 5e, and there are a lot of mechanically crunchy games that are better than 5e (including 4E). Finding a crunchy game that's actually better-designed than 4E is really hard because 4E is really well designed, even if it has a few warts.
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Aug 7, 2018 10:47
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FirstAidKite posted:well this pony is afraid of spiders and whoops they thought about ants
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Aug 7, 2018 10:48
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Dammit I thought I changed all instances of spiders in that post to ants lol
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Aug 7, 2018 10:52
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Lupercalcalcal posted:A good example of the kind of thing I really think the author of those tweets should try because she dismisses everything rules lighter than D&D as not for her. To be fair, there is A Thing with PBTA where the game tells you to "follow the fiction", rather than setting up a more prescriptive set of rules that will mechanically create these scenarios for you.
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Aug 7, 2018 11:51
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FirstAidKite posted:I really like the idea of players helping each other and getting rewarded with special tokens that can have an arbitrary value that changes from situation to situation solely for the purpose of helping the players push each other along through the adventure, whether by bribing the gm into altering events in their favor or just altering rolls. I'm wondering if there are any other games with a system like this, or maybe some similar system that Hasbro copied for this game, because I'd legit be surprised if the MLP game is the first one to ever have something like this in it. FATE and FATE derived systems are pretty much narrative points, the game. You get a bunch at the start of each session, you have aspects you can leverage with FATE points to boost rolls or you can spend the rolls for narrative declarations. The GM will sometimes bribe you with points to screw up based on your aspects, so you can take a point or pay one to overcome your flaws instead. It's very close to what you're describing, with the bonus tokens when a new friend joins the party as a very cute and thematic addition. The oldest use of narrative points I'm aware of is Savage World's bennies (Deadlands might be first?), but to my knowledge getting them is generally based on good die rolls. The various WH40K games tend to give you "Don't die" points to uh not due, I think you can use them for other stuff to. Not too familiar with either system. Deadlands gives you chips for roleplay that you can spend on extra dice or XP, which is not a great way to handle it. A lot of *world playbooks and Strike! classes give you "holds" for various mechanics, which tend to be thematically limited narrative points. FFG Star Wars points are neat in that when you spend one it flips from dark to light to light to dark. Dark side points are for the GM and light side for the players. In WFRP3E good roleplay (or good jokes) puts points into a pool, and when the pool reaches the number of characters every character gets one. So even if one guy is stealing the show everyone benefits. Narrative points make everything better. Even D&D 5E has gotten on board with Inspiration, even though it's not the best implementation. God I love narrative points.
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Aug 7, 2018 12:10
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Lupercalcalcal posted:I think she's drawing a false equivalence between less crunch games and "do whatever you want wacky forum improv". FATE and FAE don't even do the "wacky godmode, I win!" thing she's talking about. She said that doing something like "I invoke one of my aspects- 'Gadget For Anything' to pull out a grappling hook and get across this gap in the staircase is somehow a ridiculous level of playground make believe to new people. But how is that any better than "I cast Fly because I'm a wizard!"? Like first of all invoking would only give a +2 on the roll or a reroll so there's still a chance of failure, not an instant win. I'd also argue that 'Gadget for Anything' is a bad aspect descriptor because it's too broad, vague, and doesn't easily communicate ways it can be compelled by the GM. I'd say that the design of good aspects is a heck of a lot less intimidating than running down the entire list of spells and feats in modern D&D games. This isn't to say FATE isn't intimidating or complicated in its own way. Creating stunts from scratch can be challenging and aspects, too. Making up new aspects on the fly and finding the right places to invoke compel any or all of the aspects in play can be a headache, but the rules have clearly defined limits in the same way PbtA does. No rules in any game are going to prevent a breakdown in the social contract that would lead to one aggressive player constantly tugging the spotlight back on themselves. That would only be solved with healthy out-of-game discussion or straight up booting someone from the game. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Aug 7, 2018 |
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Aug 7, 2018 12:33
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kingcom posted:This poo poo makes me miserable and I wish I understood why. Maybe its just a further reminder that a single game dominates all conversation outside of a few places and people just loving coming up with more justifications for why you shouldn't try other things. What if, like her tweet said, people were allowed to play what they like without other people constantly asking "But have you tried <whatever the latest storygame is>???" 5e absolutely sucks but hoo boy is it tiring listening to people make Fate the only game you should play for any genre or universe.
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Aug 7, 2018 12:44
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Careful, the jackbooted FATE thugs are going to kick down your door a beat you with sockfulls of fudge dice for that kind of remark
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Aug 7, 2018 12:46
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alg posted:What if, like her tweet said, people were allowed to play what they like without other people constantly asking "But have you tried <whatever the latest storygame is>???" this is odd because it seems like i haven't heard an unironic or unreserved fate recommendation in a while. same for pbta. from what i can tell the big thing now is finding specialized games
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Aug 7, 2018 12:51
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Kai Tave posted:When I was younger and first getting into RPGs I thought that class systems were a drag for lame-o squares and point buy was obviously where it's at and while I don't dislike point buy systems these days per se it's kind of funny how my stance has basically reversed in that I find games with, as you say, strongly designed tight class-based design to have a lot more appeal and it seems like a lot of contemporary designers are working more in that space instead of trying to reinvent the Shadowrun-shaped wheel so I wonder if that's a pretty common trajectory, to start out thinking classes are bad and then later turning around and going "no wait, these can actually be good." Of course when I got into RPGs was during AD&D's heyday so, again as you said, class-based games looked like a hot fuckin' mess instead of something focused and elegant. You just made me realize how much I want a class based Shadowrun based on a similar rules premise to 4E. I might try to put together something sloppy to that regard even.
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Aug 7, 2018 13:00
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FirstAidKite posted:I really like the idea of players helping each other and getting rewarded with special tokens that can have an arbitrary value that changes from situation to situation solely for the purpose of helping the players push each other along through the adventure, whether by bribing the gm into altering events in their favor or just altering rolls. I'm wondering if there are any other games with a system like this, or maybe some similar system that Hasbro copied for this game, because I'd legit be surprised if the MLP game is the first one to ever have something like this in it. JTTRPG Tenra Bansho Zero has an aiki/kiai system where people get audience applause (audience being their fellow players) and turn that into fuel for character powers. Golden Sky Stories has a similar system, except you use the applause to strengthen your relationships, which give you power points when they come into a scene. (Therefore, you powergame by being as adorable as possible.) Epyllion is a PBTA system that's ponies except dragons and it gets a bit too far up its own cleverness sometimes, but it's got an interesting bit where everyone picks a virtue, and if somebody else is acting in line with it, you toss them a gem, and you can cast magic by returning gems to their owners and rolling +returned.
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Aug 7, 2018 13:14
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And project guidelines, what do you think? Untitled Shadowrun/D&D 4E Mashup The goal of this project is to produce a game that cements together the general setting of shadowrun, with some room given for removing the cruft and crap that has appeared through the years, to a system similar in style to that of Dungeons and Dragons 4E. Features: • It will use the standard die types a D&D alike uses. D20, d12, d10, d8, d6, and maybe d4 if someone can give me a good argument for why those hellish things need to still be in use. • The game will be class and species based. • Character attribute allocation will be a mixture of base stats per class choice, with a number of free points to place where desired • Attributes will not affect combat, they exist for the sake of non combat skills • There will be a small skill list. Care will be taken to avoid redundancies. • Enemies will be built for combat and not as characters, though there will be some small space put aside on their stat block for non combat capabilities. • Combat will be battle mat based. Aside from damage effects, there will be a focus on maneuverability, cover, and forced movement. • Status effects will be a thing, to what extent I will have to gauge as I go, I don’t want it to be too complicated. Shaken from savage Worlds might be the guide, not specifically “lose a turn” but its existence as a generic effect to represent a number of afflictions. • There will be a resources system, not money • Cyberware and magical artifacts will not affect the numbers of combat, though they may help in other ways. • Character will have hit points, there will be no death spiral. • Healing will work on a surges style system, with help from the street doc/yet to be named leader class to allow for more regular use. • Character combat ability will be mixed between anytime/rechargeable/encounter abilities. Rechargeable’s are similar in style to the abilities monsters get in 4E where they get the power back when they roll a certain number on a die. • The internet is the internet. • The game is going to be very gamey. Ranges will be based on reasonable game distances, not on actual realistic weapon ranges. There will be allowances for non combat violence however. IE long range sniping and such. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Aug 7, 2018 |
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Aug 7, 2018 13:21
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Hasn't Shadowrun always been about fistfuls of d6s? Use those, not the weirdo dice. Also, why have ability scores if their only function is to modify noncombat skills? Just have a skill list and have players put the modifiers there.
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Aug 7, 2018 13:27
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Siivola posted:Hasn't Shadowrun always been about fistfuls of d6s? Use those, not the weirdo dice. The first is feel. D&D is king, D&D is Nintendo in the 90s still. I want to evoke D&D because I want D&D players to feel comfortable and interested. Also, I don't love large dice pools. The second is a good question and I am definitely going to make adjustments as it becomes clear that some things are unnecessary, though I will admit, I could easily defend ability scores using the first response. Some Cows exist because people want cows. This is also literally a thing I threw together a minute ago on my first cup of coffee. I want to free combat ability from character creation to some degree because I don't want to run into the same trap 4e did as regards to building based on feel/capability. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Aug 7, 2018 |
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Aug 7, 2018 13:31
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remusclaw posted:The first is feel. D&D is king, D&D is Nintendo in the 90s still. I want to evoke D&D because I want D&D players to feel comfortable and interested. Also, I don't love large dice pools. If you wanna talk about the feel of things, then few things in crunchy games feel better than throwin' big handfuls of dice. If you're set on dice being nerd-shaped then maybe don't invoke Shadowrun. 'Urban fantasy dystopia' or something rather then referencing SR directly. I'd kill for Shadowrun Anarchy only not bad.
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Aug 7, 2018 13:42
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Sion posted:If you wanna talk about the feel of things, then few things in crunchy games feel better than throwin' big handfuls of dice. That is a an option, though I will note that straight Urban Fantasy RPG's are more a somewhat regular thing where Cyberpunk Fantasy is very much one thing done poorly, 5 or 6 times. If this gets to end stage, there will be no actual Shadowrun referencing. It is not going to be a one for one replacement. That would be boring. I want to keep the good stuff, and I want to remove the 80s stuff that has aged badly while still getting the core theme and aesthetic across. Also" Last defense of the dice. They are nerd iconic. People like them irrationally. I like them irrationally. They are a symbol of the hobby to a great degree and I have had players straight up get sullen looking after I explained that the game I am running uses only d6's.
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Aug 7, 2018 13:49
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I guess I could go for d20 Modern: Urban Arcana 2E.
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Aug 7, 2018 13:51
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remusclaw posted:The first is feel. D&D is king, D&D is Nintendo in the 90s still. I want to evoke D&D because I want D&D players to feel comfortable and interested. Also, I don't love large dice pools. So you kinda want Cyberpunk 2020 just with magic?
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Aug 7, 2018 13:55
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remusclaw posted:
lmao
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Aug 7, 2018 13:58
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Siivola posted:I guess I could go for d20 Modern: Urban Arcana 2E. I do want to note that I am not intent on doing this as a D20 game. That seems counterproductive to a great degree if I want to move the game in a better mechanical direction and 4E cant be direct cloned like the old system can. I want to use all the dice, but it is very possible they will find their usage mainly in effects, where action will use a different core mechanic. I am very partial to the 3D6 GURPS die curve for doing things, though I could be swayed to similar systems with a little more swingyness, as 3d6 might bunch up good numbers a little too tightly where D20 and D100 are far too swingy for my taste.. Hypnobeard posted:So you kinda want Cyberpunk 2020 just with magic? Well, yeah. I really want to like Shadowrun. Goa Tse-tung posted:remusclaw posted: First cup of coffee fella. I can't promise I thought all this through yet. If they did though, it would be like adding the 4E feat tax into my game intentionally. Not something I want to do. Addendum. The matrix is not my focus. The Internet just isn't that interesting as a sci fi concept any more so it will be there and it will be what it is, maybe just a little bit more of what it is. I am maybe thinking about a class that uses it in combat though. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Aug 7, 2018 |
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Aug 7, 2018 13:58
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remusclaw posted:I honestly cant disagree with her too much. Even allowing for the fact that D&D is not particularly well balanced, the narrative games really do favor the sort of people who actively go out of their way to dominate the table at the expense of less loud people. Social balance vs game balance I suppose. That said, D&D is no panacea to protect from the actively obnoxious. That’s the fault of the GM, then, who should be making sure everyone gets the same amount of screen time.
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Aug 7, 2018 14:21
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Pollyanna posted:That’s the fault of the GM, then, who should be making sure everyone gets the same amount of screen time. it can be a bit hard when the game in 90% combat and one player's screen time is "i hit it with my sword" and the other player's turn is "for the first of my 10 spells this turn..."
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Aug 7, 2018 14:26
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Serf posted:it can be a bit hard when the game in 90% combat and one player's screen time is "i hit it with my sword" and the other player's turn is "for the first of my 10 spells this turn..." Ask the fighter what kind of move they do to attack the enemy, describe the move and the effect it has on the enemy, then the enemy’s reaction and fallout from the move  Make them feel as cool and badass as the wizard. Also 10 spells in a turn da fuk???????
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Aug 7, 2018 14:31
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Pollyanna posted:Also 10 spells in a turn da fuk??????? Obviously they are playing an exceedingly house ruled version of 3.0 D&D where haste is properly powered up to make up for how bad the Wizard is. Pollyanna posted:That’s the fault of the GM, then, who should be making sure everyone gets the same amount of screen time. But yeah GM's are never going to lose all of the control they have over how well a game goes, no matter how many rules are put into place to rein in their behavior. Some people, GM's included just aren't great referees of people. That said, rules that help are worthwhile even if they aren't perfect fixes.
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Aug 7, 2018 14:35
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Pollyanna posted:Ask the fighter what kind of move they do to attack the enemy, describe the move and the effect it has on the enemy, then the enemy’s reaction and fallout from the move all the things you propose are good, but it doesn't matter when the fighter does 1d10+3 damage and then the wizard ends the encounter instantly
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Aug 7, 2018 14:36
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If you want to go for cyberpunk fantasy setting then mix it up while you're there. I suggest a fantasy setting that developed into cyberpunk rather than the 'real life but suddenly elves' thing.
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Aug 7, 2018 14:36
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