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Xander77 posted:I've provided a link to a fairly lengthy critique which supports my argument. You can either engage with it, or stop talking. You don't get to avoid reading it, then claim the argument has no basis in the text.
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Aug 8, 2018 11:48
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End of Shoelace posted:note: clarissa desdame is harrys new ladycorpse. tonks and black are cousins Black is also 14th years older than Harry and 7 years older than Tonks
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Aug 8, 2018 11:48
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Epicurius posted:Black is also 14th years older than Harry and 7 years older than Tonks It's ok, that's only a two- and one-year difference, respectively, in dog years.
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Aug 8, 2018 12:13
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I think Harry and Tonks are cousins too, by way of his grandmother or something like that. Second cousins, maybe? Is that what you call it when it's one extra step removed like that? We don't have a word for that here, so I'm not sure.
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Aug 8, 2018 12:21
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Tonks' grandfather and Harry's grandmother were siblings, so yes they're second cousins. He's also related to Draco and Bellatrix because they both have Black blood by way of their mothers. As I'm sure it's been pointed out before, pure-blood wizarding families are super inbred. There's only like a handful of them, and until very recently they were all quite obsessed with maintaing "blood purity" so they kept intermarrying. I'm honestly surprised there's no magic equivalent of Charles II of Spain. e. Thinking about it, it's probably the old wizarding families' fault there's so few wizards and witches around in modern days compared to old times as a percentage of the total population (Hogwarts is huge compared to the number of students it actually has). Since half-blood children are likely to be magical, if the families had married with muggleborns or muggles the number of wizards would be much higher than it is; instead they kept marrying each other and hosed things up, muggle population kept going up while the magical population remained static or even decreased. Mikl fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 12:54
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Mikl posted:Tonks' grandfather and Harry's grandmother were siblings, so yes they're second cousins. He's also related to Draco and Bellatrix because they both have Black blood by way of their mothers. Charles II is Voldemort. How do you think he got that face?
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Aug 8, 2018 13:13
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Literally so, I think. The Gaunts (Voldie's mum's family) was supposedly so inbred, they were barely able to talk to anything except snakes anymore.
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Aug 8, 2018 13:19
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Mikl posted:Tonks' grandfather and Harry's grandmother were siblings, so yes they're second cousins. You're right about the purebred inbreeding, but I don't think this is true. Both Tonks' dad and Harry's mom are from muggle families, and we don't know their family trees, but Tonks' maternal grandparents were Cygnus Black and Drosela Rosier, while Harry's paternal grandparents were Fleamont Potter and a woman named Euphemia. We don't know Euphemia's last name, but we know she wasn't one of Cygnus's sisters. His only sister was a woman named Belvina. eta: Also, isn't it suggested that most of the "pure blood" families actually have a bunch of muggle ancestry. They just don't talk about it/lie on the family trees Epicurius fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 13:31
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I got curious and checked the Potter wiki. Turns out they're just third cousins. Harry's great-grandmother was one Dorea Black. I've read somewhere that this is about the same degree of genetic similarity you would have to any random person anywhere in the world, on average, so I guess it doesn't come to much except for the ick factor of knowing how closely related they are at all.
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Aug 8, 2018 13:37
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I stand corrected, then  (I'm on my phone and the wiki isn't very legible on mobile, especially the family trees.)
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Aug 8, 2018 14:34
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Cardiovorax posted:I got curious and checked the Potter wiki. Turns out they're just third cousins. Harry's great-grandmother was one Dorea Black. I've read somewhere that this is about the same degree of genetic similarity you would have to any random person anywhere in the world, on average, so I guess it doesn't come to much except for the ick factor of knowing how closely related they are at all. Not even that actually. Somewhere in Harry's ancestry is Charlus Potter, who married Dorea Black, but it's not stated specifically where. His great grandfather was Henry Potter, who married a woman whose first name was never mentioned, and was the last member of the Fleamont family. Which is why Harry's grandfather's first name was Fleamont, as a nod to his mother's family. Which I only know because I was curious as to why in the hell someone would name a child Fleamont. Ron Weasley is actually closer related to the Blacks than Harry (his grandmother got kicked out of the family for marrying a Weasley)
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Aug 8, 2018 16:12
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Mikl posted:As I'm sure it's been pointed out before, pure-blood wizarding families are super inbred. There's only like a handful of them, and until very recently they were all quite obsessed with maintaing "blood purity" so they kept intermarrying. I'm honestly surprised there's no magic equivalent of Charles II of Spain. There likely is, but given the nature of saving face, they're probably reported as a still birth and immured at home to hide the family's shame. The purebloods are modeled on Victorian nobles, after all, and they were vicious about that sort of thing.
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Aug 8, 2018 17:55
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I think rowling mentioned 'pureblood' only became a thing within the last couple centuries
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Aug 8, 2018 19:16
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I thought Salazar Slytherin was all about blood purity, wasn't he from the middle ages?
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Aug 8, 2018 21:48
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Liquid Communism posted:There likely is, but given the nature of saving face, they're probably reported as a still birth and immured at home to hide the family's shame. The purebloods are modeled on Victorian nobles, after all, and they were vicious about that sort of thing. They do magic on them so they don't have hosed up faces like Charles II This is totally a canon thing and not something I just made up.
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Aug 8, 2018 22:03
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Stroth posted:Not even that actually. Somewhere in Harry's ancestry is Charlus Potter, who married Dorea Black, but it's not stated specifically where. His great grandfather was Henry Potter, who married a woman whose first name was never mentioned, and was the last member of the Fleamont family. Which is why Harry's grandfather's first name was Fleamont, as a nod to his mother's family. Which I only know because I was curious as to why in the hell someone would name a child Fleamont. most fanfiction operates under the idea that charlus is harry's grandfather and dorea his grandmother, and under that premise harry and tonks are second cousins. nobody knew fleamont existed until long after the idea that harry was quite closely related to the black family had been firmly entrenched in fanfiction OctaviusBeaver posted:I thought Salazar Slytherin was all about blood purity, wasn't he from the middle ages? there's no particular evidence that he cared about the kind of blood purity that modern purebloods do. everything the reader is told about slytherin comes from biased sources that view slytherin, the man, through the lens of slytherin, the designated house for evil children Jazerus fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 22:22
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Jazerus posted:most fanfiction operates under the idea that charlus is harry's grandfather and dorea his grandmother, and under that premise harry and tonks are second cousins. which is weird considering how much of it is about them banging please let me continue living life thinking that's weird and unintended
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Aug 9, 2018 08:23
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Jazerus posted:there's no particular evidence that he cared about the kind of blood purity that modern purebloods do. everything the reader is told about slytherin comes from biased sources that view slytherin, the man, through the lens of slytherin, the designated house for evil children
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Aug 9, 2018 08:44
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The dude did leave a basilisk lying around the school. Who? Roko?
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Aug 9, 2018 09:48
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Cardiovorax posted:Yeah, no, I think I do in fact get to do that, just as much as I would with any other random Youtube comment grade angryblog. I think I will stop talking about it, though, because you're being kind of an rear end about this and I'm not willing to have an angry argument because you're pissed at Random Mediocre Fantasy Author #1234 and need a stand-in for the person you can't shout at personally.
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Aug 9, 2018 11:47
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Who? Roko? Slytherin, the rear end in a top hat, not Slytherin, the collection of assholes
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Aug 9, 2018 20:12
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The dude did leave a basilisk lying around the school. which makes him a paranoid possibly evil weirdo, pretty par for the course as far as wizards go - that doesn't mean that blood purity was a thing in his era. the basilisk will attack anybody if ordered, and won't attack anyone if not ordered, apparently. blood purity doesn't seem to factor in. wizard historians are terrible so there is no reliable historical record as to why the basilisk existed in the first place
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Aug 9, 2018 21:04
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I seem to recall that the original Slytherin would only tale apprentices/students with two wizard parents, as well. From Pottermore: quote:The term ‘pure-blood’ refers to a family or individual without Muggle (non-magic) blood. The concept is generally associated with Salazar Slytherin, one of the four founders of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, whose aversion to teaching anybody of Muggle parentage eventually led to a breach with his three fellow founders, and his resignation from the school. It does go on to say that his view was unusual for the time. The usual stereotype among wizards in the Middle Ages was that the wizard child of two nonmagical parents tended to be unusually gifted, and that the purebred movement didn't become a thing until after witchhunting and the Statute of Secrecy drew Wizards and Muggles to separate. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Aug 9, 2018 |
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Aug 9, 2018 21:15
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quote:In times of old when I was new The sorting hat said Slytherin was a blood purist and the hat was actually there. I think saying that the blood purity thing is new is another one of Rowling's retcons.
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Aug 10, 2018 01:46
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Epicurius posted:I seem to recall that the original Slytherin would only tale apprentices/students with two wizard parents, as well. Like is it really persecution if all the blows glance off the intended victim like feathers? It's even canon that some wizards developed a taste for being 'burned' and would deliberately incite witch trials so they could fake burn (while muggles were actually burning).
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Aug 10, 2018 02:12
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PetraCore posted:Which is hilarious because it's canon that witch hunting only ever killed muggles
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Aug 10, 2018 02:14
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You have to think, though, that even if the witch hunts didn't succeed in killing any actual wizards, it probably was a strain on muggle/wizard relations.
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Aug 10, 2018 02:24
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OctaviusBeaver posted:The sorting hat said Slytherin was a blood purist and the hat was actually there. I think saying that the blood purity thing is new is another one of Rowling's retcons. Maybe the hat is an unreliable source.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:47
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Pvt.Scott posted:Maybe the hat is an unreliable source. If you can't believe a hat, who can you believe? Besides, did you read that song? That hat is in the middle of an existential crisis. It hates its job. It is doing what it was made to do, but for the first time, it's starting to doubt the reason for its existence. "Am I part of the problem?", it wonders. "I remember the dreams that the founders of Hogwarts had, and I was proud to be a part of it, but how could it have gone so wrong?", it asks, "Was it inevitable that a school founded by four people who had mutually exclusive ideas about the teaching of magic would turn into a place where we sort 11 year olds based on a talking hat's first impression of their personality and then encourage them to hate each other? And could that be wrong somehow?" That hat is in pain, and its crying out the truth.
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Aug 10, 2018 04:42
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the hat should have been a horcrux I mean come on
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Aug 10, 2018 05:05
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Tunicate posted:the hat should have been a horcrux I mean come on It belonged to Gryffindor and Voldemort probably hated Protagonist House.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:12
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Xander77 posted:I'd be just as annoyed if some rear end in a top hat told me I'm making poo poo up about random fantasy author 1235 / global warming / the weather outside, while pointedly refusing to get off his rear end and actually check for himself. Epicurius posted:You have to think, though, that even if the witch hunts didn't succeed in killing any actual wizards, it probably was a strain on muggle/wizard relations.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:58
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Xander77 posted:I'd be just as annoyed if some rear end in a top hat told me I'm making poo poo up about random fantasy author 1235 / global warming / the weather outside, while pointedly refusing to get off his rear end and actually check for himself. well I mean you invented the idea that the white council is responsible for keeping all the supernatural poo poo in the world a secret, then blamed that misconception on the author loving up his worldbuilding, so intentional or not you're already on record as making poo poo up I mean... I guess if you weren't reading attentively you could maybe misconstrue 'the wizard cops keep their extrajudicial killings of evil wizards off the books' as a blanket mandate of secrecy?
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Aug 10, 2018 07:30
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Tunicate posted:I mean... I guess if you weren't reading attentively you could maybe misconstrue 'the wizard cops keep their extrajudicial killings of evil wizards off the books' as a blanket mandate of secrecy? quote:I don’t talk to regular people about the White Council. It just isn’t done. ... As for Harry's issues with women... I mean, you could read a quick summary of the first book, even if you don't read blogs? https://www.thefandomentals.com/storm-front-study-sexism Xander77 fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Aug 10, 2018 |
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Aug 10, 2018 10:15
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Xander77 posted:I actually meant "don't tell the world magic is real or we'll come for you" rather than "cover up every incidence of supernatural occurrences" but guess what: I haven't read the book, but the stuff you quoted seems to indicate that they don't have any specific rules about keeping magic secret, they just might, on a case by case basis, consider someone knowing too much to be a threat and react accordingly?
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Aug 10, 2018 10:28
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Doctor Spaceman posted:It belonged to Gryffindor and Voldemort probably hated Protagonist House. IIRC it also sat on Dumbledore's shelf the other 364 days a year, so old Voldy probably couldn't get at it.
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Aug 10, 2018 14:29
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Xander77 posted:
really. you have a hard time imagining how anyone could deny that the author masturbates to women being mutilated because of some uncomfortable gender politics in the book. in good faith. Like you're not wrong that there's uncomfortable gender politics but dude you're taking this creepily far Vvvv 
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Aug 10, 2018 14:45
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Cat Army 
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Liquid Communism posted:IIRC it also sat on Dumbledore's shelf the other 364 days a year, so old Voldy probably couldn't get at it. Yeah, good point. The sword and the hat are the only known relics of Gryffindor and you can argue that neither of them would be good candidates for a horcrux for various reasons. Also that he did end up making a Gryffindor horcrux anyway.
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Aug 10, 2018 14:49
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Tiggum posted:I haven't read the book, but the stuff you quoted seems to indicate that they don't have any specific rules about keeping magic secret, they just might, on a case by case basis, consider someone knowing too much to be a threat and react accordingly? Specifically they keep things that any idiot could do without needing magical talent secret, because that poo poo's dangerous to everybody. No one needs some rear end in a top hat to summon the Crawling Chaos in downtown Manhattan.
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Aug 10, 2018 15:29
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Xander77 posted:all the women who are in control / using their sexuality are evil and repulsive to Harry. I would point out that the same thing is true of the male characters, with (for example) the White King representing exactly the same kind of predatory, exploitative and abusive sexuality, because vampires are a 300-loving-years-old literary rape metaphor, but I expect you'll just call that more proof that Butcher is Literally Ted Bundy. God forbid that the gothic horror signature monsters be actually monstrous and horrifying or anything like that. Anyway, there's a pretty clear and obvious difference between how Harry relates to the characters who he sees as actual women and the ones who he sees as monsters masquerading as people. Martha Liberty, Charity "I beat fairies to death with a loving sledgehammer" Carpenter and Warden Luccio aren't what I'd call "damsels in distress" by any measure, for one. The characters who are actual human beings also express a much more healthy sexuality involving things like "real relationships and mutual attraction," for the other. I'm not sure how you read a Madonna complex into that. Harry is certainly unhappy about it when Murphy has a casual sexual affair with Kincaid, but that's because he has romantic feelings for her himself and feels jealous, not because of the type of "soiled purity" notion that is typical for actual Madonna/Whore complexes. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Aug 10, 2018 |
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Aug 10, 2018 15:43
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