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KingFisher posted:
Also that is a thing that is supposed to happen sometime between 2045 and 2060 and even people's teen children will be relatively old when whites hit 49.99% and "they are taking over!" is more a boogieman fear than a thing anyone has to deal with in anything like the near future.
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Aug 10, 2018 15:42
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KingFisher posted:What is the "moderate" socially acceptable version of advocacy for white people's interests explicitly? The problem with this question is that "white" doesn't refer to a class of people that exists when you remove the privilege and power dynamics from the equation. You couldn't even argue that white refers to color of skin because white people aren't literally white, and lots of people currently considered white have dark skin and in many cases weren't considered white historically. So the whole definition of the group is based on something else e.g. fear, class anxiety, whatever else. In a theoretical situation where the world is cured of oppression and racism, I don't think there is a class of people identifying as "white," because there is no out group (people of color) that people are afraid to be considered a part of such that they identify themselves as something other than that out group (white). For this reason, I don't think you can have white advocacy that isn't fundamentally racist. That's my understanding, at least, from reading some things by Ta-Nehisi Coates. Others may be able to articulate this better.
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Aug 10, 2018 15:56
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KingFisher posted:Whites need a socially and politically acceptable way to advocate for thier interests in an explicit manner. What the gently caress does this mean? What are "white people's interests?" This feels like some extreme dog whistling.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:02
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Unless you also assume white people are idiots they're going to notice if their form of advocating for their interests (whatever those are) is completely toothless and doesn't actually work. Near as I can tell you're accepting white supremacism as inevitable and suggesting we just need some way for people to be white supremacist where it doesn't actually do anything. Which I think both completely misunderstands how white supremacism manifests and also one of the principle complaints of white supremacists which is that allegedly the political system already renders them powerless, even when it clearly does not.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:08
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Won't someone please think of the white people!? Here's the thing; you will not siphon away the alt-right by appealing to a white racial identity. For one, appealing specifically to white people means ignoring or actively harming every other group of people. This is both morally abhorrent and coalition shattering; you can't add in the white racists without losing PoC. Secondly, this means adopting the right's framing of society as a baseline. Doing this only makes it easier for the right to convince people to join their cause as we have fundamentally agreed with their worldview, but then reach a different conclusion on what we should do about it. Telling white people "yeah, minorities are absolutely replacing you, but we need to support that" is not going to convince anyone to join up with us. Third, the right has the aggrieved white person demographic locked down, appealing to literally any other group of people in America will yield better results.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:09
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Also that is a thing that is supposed to happen sometime between 2045 and 2060 and even people's teen children will be relatively old when whites hit 49.99%.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:12
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Rent-A-Cop posted:We'll just make Hispanics (but only the good ones) White in the 2040s and continue loving everyone else's poo poo up. Agreed and probably anyone who is biracial and almost white passing. Maybe even East Asians if they keep the model minority thing up.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:29
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah what white people specific thing is there you think needs advocating for? Sunscreen Subsidies
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Aug 10, 2018 16:33
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Marxalot posted:Sunscreen Subsidies
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Aug 10, 2018 16:35
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Also that is a thing that is supposed to happen sometime between 2045 and 2060 and even people's teen children will be relatively old when whites hit 49.99% and "they are taking over!" is more a boogieman fear than a thing anyone has to deal with in anything like the near future. The reason I bring this up is I believe in 2013 or 2014 the majority of children born in America were minorites. Those kids are going to kindergarten and such now. I know our education system is highly segregated (especially large liberal cities), but the idea of your white child as a minority in the classroom is a classic white fear (quick let's form our own school district, or even town). Social science research shows if you ask whites/blacks/Hispanics each group already thinks that America is majority-minority. This reflects the increased diversity in the popular culture, and highly visible signs of change like the election of our biracial president Barak Obama (one drop rule doe). So from pop music to poltics, to sports to TV commercials pretty much anything in the media already reflects majority-minority America. Just play count the minorites while watching TV commercials and you'll see why whites feel out numbered.Ditto with top 40, name the last #1 "rock" song or album.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:37
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But the solution is white people need to deal with not being in charge of everything, not that we need to find ways to let them be white supremacist.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:41
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qmark posted:The problem with this question is that "white" doesn't refer to a class of people that exists when you remove the privilege and power dynamics from the equation. You couldn't even argue that white refers to color of skin because white people aren't literally white, and lots of people currently considered white have dark skin and in many cases weren't considered white historically. So the whole definition of the group is based on something else e.g. fear, class anxiety, whatever else. So let's assume you remove all the privilege and power, IE all the subconscious bias and institutional racism. You still got a group of people that 100% think of themselves as "white people". I'm white, I won't ever be anything but white. My ethnic heretige is all over the place and even the largest bits are culturally irrelevant to my daily life, unlike my white racial status. So yeah whiteness as amorphous as it has been historically, isn't going away and even under ideal circumstances those people will think of themselves as white purely for historical reasons. It's not like they wake up one day as an a-racial american. So yeah I get what you are saying/paraphrasing but real white people exist and aren't ever not going to.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:43
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White people exist as a function of their ability to form a collective identity and their systemic control of things. I am descriptively extremely white but I don't identify as white because white identity is a stupid idea and not one you need to encourage.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:45
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I feel like we're three posts away from "Why isn't there a White History Month?"
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Aug 10, 2018 16:46
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If you want to base your identity around a colour then I would suggest red, honestly.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:48
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I think they're trying to get at the idea of a future arrangement where white people are a strong demographic but can't dictate the nation's course singlehandedly. Sort of like Chinese in Singapore or Hindus in India. Rather than moving to a post idpol paradigm though, whites would instead become just one openly advocating idpol group of many. This is not a workable idea, there's way too much historical baggage to ever have a non-racist explicitly white movement and even absolute best case you'd end up with the white Christian version of the BJP to the extent that doesn't already describe the GOP. Also America will not have a civil war any time soon this is a  .
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Aug 10, 2018 16:49
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WampaLord posted:What the gently caress does this mean? Yeah like I said, I don't have a white people policy platform. But you kind of missed my point. The goal would be to divorce the historical "dog whistle" context from those phrases to prevent radicalization. I'm assuming in the next 20 years or so there actually will be "white people's interests" (of the non-bigoted/non-supremist/non-separatist kind) more white people live in a world where they aren't the default. Like white people have always had interests they just weren't coded that way politically. I'm assuming they will keep having them once that racial identity becomes stronger within the group.
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Aug 10, 2018 16:51
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KingFisher posted:Just play count the minorites while watching TV commercials and you'll see why whites feel out numbered.Ditto with top 40, name the last #1 "rock" song or album. This is some top tier projecting, mr white fragility KingFisher posted:Like white people have always had interests they just weren't coded that way politically. What does this MEAN?!?
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Aug 10, 2018 16:52
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What makes you think that white people will lose the ability to wield control just because there are fewer of them total than everyone else combined. When has white supremacy in the US ever been predicated on sheer numbers?
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Aug 10, 2018 16:53
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OwlFancier posted:If you want to base your identity around a colour then I would suggest red, honestly. Yo, listen up here's the story About a little guy that lives in a blue world And all day and all night and everything he sees is just blue Like him inside and outside Blue his house With a blue little window And a blue corvette And everything is blue for him And himself and everybody around 'Cause he ain't got nobody to listen... I'm blue Da ba dee, da ba die x7 I'm blue Da ba dee, da ba die x7 I have a blue house with a blue window Blue is the colour of all that I wear Blue are the streets and all the trees are too I have a girlfriend and she is so blue Blue are the people here that walk around Blue like my corvette its in and outside Blue are the words I say and what I think Blue are the feelings that live inside me I'm blue Da ba dee, da ba die x7 I'm blue Da ba dee, da ba die x7 I have a blue house with a blue window Blue is the colour of all that I wear Blue are the streets and all the trees are too I have a girlfriend and she is so blue Blue are the people here that walk around Blue like my corvette its in and outside Blue are the words I say and what I think Blue are the feelings that live inside me I'm blue Da ba dee da ba die x7 I'm blue Da ba dee da ba die x7
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Aug 10, 2018 16:58
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Also seriously what "white interests" are there other than stealing everyone else's labour? When have white people ever had exclusive interests that weren't white supremacist because I genuinely do not know of any.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:00
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OwlFancier posted:Unless you also assume white people are idiots they're going to notice if their form of advocating for their interests (whatever those are) is completely toothless and doesn't actually work. I think historically non-bigoted whites advocated for thier interests in non-racial terms. E.G soccer mom's And Nascar dad's. Would you say a white person who advocates for a policy out of self interest (say increasing the EITC) is doing so in a racially nuetral manner? What if the same white person wanted to expand the EITC (for everyone) because they knew whites were the majority of poor people in America and they wanted to help thier in-group? Would that advocacy be unacceptable, even through the person who holds that has no belief of white supremism? Its not "accepting white supremacism", I'm speaking explicitly about non-bigoted/non-supremacist/non-separatist whites. And yes historically whites have had all the power, and when you have all the power you can pretend like all of politics is race nuetral. But when you don't have power and your in-group has needs you have to express those policy preferences in a racial manner. As people with a white identity become a minority I posit we should allow non-bigoted whites to do so explicitly so as not to drive them into the arms of the white supremacists.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:05
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Blind wealth redistribution is never going to benefit white people because rich white people hold all the wealth. If someone thinks that redistributive policies help white people as a race they're wrong. They'll help some white people but if you're doing it out of a belief in white identity then you're doing white supremacism wrong. You can argue that in terms of class analysis but you can't credibly do it along racial lines. If people only want to help white people they aren't going to argue for redistribution. And again there's already a way to argue for it that isn't racist, it's called marxism. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Aug 10, 2018 |
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Aug 10, 2018 17:09
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KingFisher posted:So let's assume you remove all the privilege and power, IE all the subconscious bias and institutional racism. If you accept the premise that there is no criteria for "whiteness" other than identifying as not being a member of the subjugated class (people of color), then you can't have a world where all privilege and power is removed and people still identify as white, even if it's just for practical purposes or for lack of any other label. I feel like the absurdity in that should be self-evident... But what you're saying highlights a big reason why things are so crazy right now. Capitalism is hollowing out western culture so much that people are desperately grabbing onto whatever sources of "identity" they can, including racial identity and national identity. I feel like it should be very easy to come up with a number of ways you could characterize and label group identities for white individuals that are at worst harmless but also not completely devoid of meaning, but I admit that it's not easy.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:12
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White supremacism predates capitalism.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:13
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sirtommygunn posted:Won't someone please think of the white people!? I guess we differ here on what we think will happen as more white people search for explicit political representation. My fear is that those most susceptible to the minority majority threat are presently being driven into the arms of alt-right which is allowing it to grow in power and influence and if the trend continues for another 25 years that would be very bad for the country. Since the topic of the threat is about another civil war, my goal is to prevent further violence by allowing whites who hold non-bigoted views the social and political freedom to express those views. Given the structure not American racial politics it's unlikely those whites who's political activity prompted out of thier white identity will be interested in the left coalition. Hence the goal to keep the alt-right from taking over the entire right. Remember I think the growth of explicit white identity politics is an inexorable March driven by demographic change. Would you rather they been accommodated politically by a non-bigoted party or one that has been radicalized by the alt-right?
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Aug 10, 2018 17:15
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Kingfisher you’re just describing the modern Republican Party right now, and the ‘White Interests’ the theoretical future non-racist policies the White Identity Party is going to advocate will inevitably be tax cuts and an end to affirmative action
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Aug 10, 2018 17:15
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Why are you so god drat invested in knowing the exact boundaries between the (definitely real) non-racist white-only advocacy and white supremacy?
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Aug 10, 2018 17:15
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I'd rather they be crushed like insects underneath the stiletto heel of the gay black feminist communist brigade. As should have happened a long time ago.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:16
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A big snag is that there are under-privileged white people in America. However it's very hard to talk about them without sounding racist or actually being super-racist. This is actually one of the demographics that voted for Trump in spades. Rural white people, especially in the Rust Belt, are seeing their jobs vanishing, their economic opportunity crumbling, and their neighborhoods being abandoned. It can be extraordinarily difficult to escape small Rust Belt towns that are like >95% white because of how god awful the money situation is there. Where I'm originally from we barely noticed when the Great Recession hit because little changed. poo poo is just that bad there. It's extremely easy to feel like you've been discarded as a demographic when neither political party has done much of anything for you in recent memory. While the Republican party at least cared about evangelical issues the economic ones were ignored. Conversely the Democrats focus heavily on cities and the minority vote. Neither party was like "hey we see you struggling so we'll help you keep a roof over your head." Of course the GOP wants to eliminate welfare programs in general and boy howdy do a lot of people in rural Rust Belt towns rely on food stamps to eat. The subsidized apartments have waiting lists years long. I mean, of course these people feel like they're being hosed over. They are being hosed over. What they often don't see is that minorities are getting turbo hosed even harder. Yet the message they are seeing is the Democrats saying "we need to help these poor minorities!" The message they're getting is "but lol gently caress you if you're a poor white person. I don't care if you're hungry you can eat white privilege, right?" It sure as hell doesn't feel like white privilege if you're stuck making minimum wage 30 hours a week in a town that's had double digit unemployment since 1985. Trump spoke directly to these people. The promises were empty of course but after decades of neither party even acknowledging their existence somebody saying "I'm bringing your jobs back" sounded great.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:17
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KingFisher posted:Since the topic of the threat is about another civil war, my goal is to prevent further violence by allowing whites who hold non-bigoted views the social and political freedom to express those views. Are non-bigoted white people lacking this freedom at the moment? What are you afraid of?
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Aug 10, 2018 17:20
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Super privilege boy just wants to advocate SOFT white nationalism guys it's ok
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Aug 10, 2018 17:21
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Non bigoted white people can become commies, that's a good use for them rather than the White People Interests(definitelynotsupremacist) Party.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:21
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My struggle, as a straight white male american, is to raise awareness and fight for the cure for sun-sneezing.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:21
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OwlFancier posted:But the solution is white people need to deal with not being in charge of everything, not that we need to find ways to let them be white supremacist. Yeah, they won't though, white fragility is a thing. Loss aversion is a very powerful psychological phenomenon. All of the optics of demographic change in the country right now are coded in a zero sum manner. Saying "deal with it" is a great way to radicalize an aggrieved minority and make things worse. It's fine if you disagree with my prediction of the future, or my proposal for how to reduce the harm. But telling a plurality of the population to "deal with it" is how they get the idea to work harder to rig the system in thier favor.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:22
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That's why you tell them to deal with it with lots of other politically active people behind you. I suggest that the solution to white supremacists is to annihilate them not pander to them.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:23
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shame on an IGA posted:My struggle, as a straight white male american, is to raise awareness and fight for the cure for sun-sneezing. do other people not get that? huh. learn something every day
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Aug 10, 2018 17:23
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Okay so you literally just want us to coddle racists who are getting scared that the world is getting less white. Hard pass, thanks.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:24
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OwlFancier posted:White people exist as a function of their ability to form a collective identity and their systemic control of things. I am descriptively extremely white but I don't identify as white because white identity is a stupid idea and not one you need to encourage. Congratulations on your wokeness. Do you think the average white person who in the next 25 years who goes from thinking of themselves a "normal/American" to white will feel the same way?
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Aug 10, 2018 17:26
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KingFisher posted:Congratulations on your wokeness. Do you think the average white person who in the next 25 years who goes from thinking of themselves a "normal/American" to white will feel the same way? I think they can be made to feel that way though it is better to start younger, and if they don't then it is probably advisable to suppress their political preferences until they die.
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Aug 10, 2018 17:27
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