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dupersaurus posted:Killing a citizen with military action without due process is — at a philosophical What is America sense — not a great look, and feeds into a lot of conspiratorial narratives about the big bad government hiding its misdeeds. Give police F-15s then  Is stealing an aircraft a federal crime, or would every state need its own air force?
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Aug 12, 2018 03:00
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Federal crime
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Aug 12, 2018 03:08
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Sagebrush posted:he might be planning to crash it into the space needle. This was exactly where my mind went. I couldn't suppress the laugh that came out when I thought what it would be like to have that happen to the needle only weeks after the thing went through a 100 million dollar renovation.
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Aug 12, 2018 03:32
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Buttcoin purse posted:Give police F-15s then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x70o5lTd1U
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Aug 12, 2018 03:38
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Buttcoin purse posted:would every state need its own air force? They have them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_National_Guard Which is indeed who scrambled for this mission, specifically the Oregon ANG. (at least according to Tyler Rogoway) https://twitter.com/Aviation_Intel/status/1028123913090260993 Obviously they have a complex relationship with the active duty USAF, but the ANG can be thought of in broad terms as "a state's air force". They're generally the ones who are standing those alerts to, y'know, guard the nation in cases like this.
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Aug 12, 2018 04:08
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Wingnut Ninja posted:They have them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_National_Guard Yes but by that logic Oregon responded to a crime in Washington using Massachusetts hardware.
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Aug 12, 2018 04:24
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Isn't it weird that we have Army and Air National Guards, but coastal states don't have, like, a Navy National Guard?
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Aug 12, 2018 04:31
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FuturePastNow posted:Isn't it weird that we have Army and Air National Guards, but coastal states don't have, like, a Navy National Guard? It’s the Naval Reserve.
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Aug 12, 2018 04:35
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hobbesmaster posted:Interesting tidbit - they eventually managed to scramble some F-16s for the last flight on 9/11 but the F-16s were unarmed. They were aware of what had happened in NYC and planned to ram United 93 to bring it down. quote:A third plane hit the Pentagon, and almost at once came word that a fourth plane could be on the way, maybe more. The jets would be armed within an hour, but somebody had to fly now, weapons or no weapons. https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...m=.d12aca313610
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Aug 12, 2018 05:23
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ulmont posted:It’s the Naval Reserve. Well that's a part of the Navy, and the Navy's equivalent to the Air Force Reserve and Army Reserve, not National Guard or Air National Guard
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Aug 12, 2018 05:23
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EDIT: Beaten like SeaTac ground clearance.
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Aug 12, 2018 05:39
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FuturePastNow posted:Isn't it weird that we have Army and Air National Guards, but coastal states don't have, like, a Navy National Guard? Imagine a Guard for Coastal states. A "Coast Guard" if you will...
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Aug 12, 2018 12:26
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I was hoping for a Beach Force.
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Aug 12, 2018 13:56
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The Qanon guys are just upset they didn't get invited to the Ketron Island alt-flight rally
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Aug 12, 2018 14:10
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The Coast Guards are federal level, and not covered by the National Guard Bureau. Also they're ultimately under Homeland Security rather than Defense, contrarily to the Army and Air NG. Contrarily to the NGs, the CG are not a reserve component, and in fact they have their own reserve component. It's just that the Army and Air Force have two reserve component, one of which each is a national guard. The Marines also have no National Guard equivalent, and that' probably for the best. And then there are State Defense Forces, which are distinct from the National Guards in that they are fully at the state level and can't be called upon by the Federal State, except indirectly by drafting their personnel. The closest thing to a Navy National Guard would probably be the Naval Militias, which have some sort of weird hybrid status somewhere between a State Defense Force and a National Guard. And then there are the various Auxiliaries, that are considered civilians but can in some circumstances be armed. Basically the organization of the US military forces is complex and confusing.
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Aug 12, 2018 14:11
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AzureSkys posted:I was hoping for a Beach Force. Their motto: "Forever and always, they're always there"
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Aug 12, 2018 14:46
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hobbesmaster posted:Yes but by that logic Oregon responded to a crime in Washington using Massachusetts hardware. Ah, a loose collection of state militias working together for the common defense, just as the founding fathers envisioned. 
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Aug 12, 2018 15:04
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Texas should have Marines, to reclaim eastern New Mexico and parts of Colorado.
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Aug 12, 2018 15:11
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Just wiki'ed state defense forces; wowie zowie I've never heard of this
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Aug 12, 2018 15:20
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blugu64 posted:Texas should have Marines, to reclaim eastern New Mexico and parts of Colorado. Texas has plenty of police willing to commit crimes 
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Aug 12, 2018 15:58
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vessbot posted:Just wiki'ed state defense forces; wowie zowie I've never heard of this I'd seen the Virginia Defense Force at gun shows but just assumed they were some racist hick survivalist militia wearing BDUs to feel tough. Which to be fair they probably are, they just have official sponsorship.
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Aug 12, 2018 17:08
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fknlo posted:If he hadn't been talking to ATC I pretty much assume that they would have shot him down. gently caress no. Like...there's actual training for this poo poo, and procedures and whatnot, and it's simmed all the goddamned time, and the USAF ends up running intercepts on doctors joyriding several times per year because nobody bothers to read NOTAMS. hobbesmaster posted:I’d be shocked if there weren’t standing orders regarding the situation in which you can shoot down an airliner. Yeah. NORAD/NORTHCOM have ROE in place, that crews are trained to and familiar with, and have to be qualified on before they get to sit alert. Source: Me. I've controlled these missions from AWACS and from civilian ATC (didn't have any fighters for that one, but I did get to make guard calls that were actually heeded, with a Secret Service agent sitting next to me). I've sat alert, and been retasked mid-mission. Godholio fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Aug 12, 2018 |
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Aug 12, 2018 21:16
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Godholio posted:gently caress no. Like...there's actual training for this poo poo, and procedures and whatnot, and it's simmed all the goddamned time, and the USAF ends up running intercepts on doctors joyriding several times per year because nobody bothers to read NOTAMS. Maybe you 're the right guy to weigh in on this. I've heard guard calls like this aimed at blundering doctors, and one time it was in this extremely menacing tone and cadence, which... I understand the intent of course, but it was so played up as to be absurd. It was actually downright comical, like an SNL skit about an over the top drill sergeant or something. So is that part of the official training or what? Or was some 19 year old hyped up on his first real life exposure?
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Aug 12, 2018 22:18
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vessbot posted:Just wiki'ed state defense forces; wowie zowie I've never heard of this Yeah, there is are some very specific rules about this for some very specific reasons, dating back to the war of independence and civil war. Basically the US Millitary is ONLY for defending the external borders of the country. Any kind of millitary action inside of the borders cannot be done using federal military power/hardware without certain criteria being met (like an invasion, I suppose). So instead you get the national guard in each state, which largely does nothing most of the time, but gives states access to their own military hardware to deal with things like this, so that you don't mix your chocolate with their peanut butter. Naturally there's a good science fiction quote, from Battlestar Galatica about this  :quote:" There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people." There was a big issue a year or two ago where the US military wanted to do military war games on a practice field with another country in Georgia, they were told no for the reasons above.
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Aug 12, 2018 22:22
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Hello thread, I visited the Patuxent River Naval Air Museum this weekend. I took some pictures. https://imgur.com/a/cNzENdm https://imgur.com/a/tDglN9j
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Aug 12, 2018 23:40
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vessbot posted:Maybe you 're the right guy to weigh in on this. I've heard guard calls like this aimed at blundering doctors, and one time it was in this extremely menacing tone and cadence, which... I understand the intent of course, but it was so played up as to be absurd. It was actually downright comical, like an SNL skit about an over the top drill sergeant or something. So is that part of the official training or what? Or was some 19 year old hyped up on his first real life exposure? Probably a 23 year old, but yeah pretty much a junior controller trying to sound like a badass. Completely unnecessary and I'd tell anyone on my crew to knock that poo poo off.
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Aug 13, 2018 00:13
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Terrible Robot posted:Hello thread, I visited the Patuxent River Naval Air Museum this weekend. I took some pictures. I know it lost, but it's not really fair to keep the X-32 outside and not clean it. On the other hand, Goddamn is that's a derpy whale mouth of a plane. *quoted the wrong post* Ardeem fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Aug 13, 2018 |
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Aug 13, 2018 01:22
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Godholio posted:gently caress no. Like...there's actual training for this poo poo, and procedures and whatnot, and it's simmed all the goddamned time, and the USAF ends up running intercepts on doctors joyriding several times per year because nobody bothers to read NOTAMS. You're obviously going to know way more about the military side of this than I do, but we both know there's a massive difference between some dipshit in a Mooney blasting through a TFR and someone stealing a passenger plane and flying it over a major city. e: and if they're treated in the exact same way on that end, well, that's kind of insane to be completely honest. fknlo fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Aug 13, 2018 |
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Aug 13, 2018 01:27
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Ardeem posted:I know it lost, but it's not really fair to keep the X-32 outside and not clean it. Given its proximity, there's a good chance it'll find its way to the Udvar-Hazy Center for proper restoration, be displayed there alongside the X-35B for a while, then returned to Pax River where it'll become a 'unique' display.
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Aug 13, 2018 01:38
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Aug 13, 2018 02:22
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Terrible Robot posted:Hello thread, I visited the Patuxent River Naval Air Museum this weekend. I took some pictures. Nice collection, the AWACS planes look bizarre! The US Navy had some weird ideas. Also nice to see an F-4 represented, Australia leased 24 of them while waiting for the F-111 production to stop loving up, and didn't keep them, which we should have. If we had, maybe we wouldn't have made the dumb decision to buy the F-35.
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Aug 13, 2018 02:30
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Terrible Robot posted:Hello thread, I visited the Patuxent River Naval Air Museum this weekend. I took some pictures. That's my kind of poo poo, thanks.
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Aug 13, 2018 02:59
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70% of my KSP takeoff attempts
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Aug 13, 2018 03:15
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Godholio posted:Probably a 23 year old, but yeah pretty much a junior controller trying to sound like a badass. Completely unnecessary and I'd tell anyone on my crew to knock that poo poo off. Reminds me of the time I went up the tower in LHR (probably told this story before), and the controller was this young guy with the most urban London/(actually probably more like Slough) accent, innit m8, when he spoke to everyone else, and as soon as he got on the radio to pilots, he switched to the most dead to rights RP public school "proper English". Like suddenly the poshest bloke in the room. It was hilarious.
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Aug 13, 2018 03:27
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fknlo posted:You're obviously going to know way more about the military side of this than I do, but we both know there's a massive difference between some dipshit in a Mooney blasting through a TFR and someone stealing a passenger plane and flying it over a major city. Pretty sure his point is that there's a complicated and dynamic decision tree/protocol structure that extends far beyond "not talking -> shoot down." Not that Mooney = acro Q. The Mooney situations were just brought up as an example of this structure already being in place.
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Aug 13, 2018 03:58
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Potato Salad posted:70% of my KSP takeoff attempts
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Aug 13, 2018 04:28
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fknlo posted:You're obviously going to know way more about the military side of this than I do, but we both know there's a massive difference between some dipshit in a Mooney blasting through a TFR and someone stealing a passenger plane and flying it over a major city. Even in a hijack situation, you don't shoot unless there's no other way to avoid a disaster. And most of the military-patrolled TFRs are there because the president or other head of state is in town. Opening fire on a civilian aircraft is a Big loving Deal. Those fighters were not launched to shoot him down, they were launched in case it became necessary. There's a significant difference. Edit: vessbot posted:Pretty sure his point is that there's a complicated and dynamic decision tree/protocol structure that extends far beyond "not talking -> shoot down." Not that Mooney = acro Q. The Mooney situations were just brought up as an example of this structure already being in place. Yeah, this. There are literal checklists. Godholio fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Aug 13, 2018 |
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Aug 13, 2018 06:28
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I approve of this fate for a Hawker, and I would like to know more.
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Aug 13, 2018 10:57
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:I approve of this fate for a Hawker, and I would like to know more. It was 425 Manufacturing’s vehicle for the 2018 Rock River Anything That Floats Race in Rockford, Illinois.
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Aug 13, 2018 11:08
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For that matter, when the guy in a gyrocopter flew into DC as a form of protest, it wasn’t that he went undetected. It was a deliberate decision not to shoot him down or kill him on landing by security and law enforcement. He did get hit with a felony and four months in prison though.
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Aug 13, 2018 13:49
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