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Also: looks like someone is taking another crack at a Dune RPGquote:Gale Force Nine(GF9) has reached a multi-year licensing agreement with Legendary Entertainment and Herbert Properties, LLC to bring the expansive Dune sci-fi franchise to tabletop gaming. https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/41139/exclusive-frank-herberts-dune-comes-tabletop?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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Aug 15, 2018 04:48
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FMguru posted:Hobbies, by definition, are kind of expensive. Want to get into golf? Or woodworking? Or photography? Or SCUBA diving? Or mountain biking? Stamp collecting? Music production? A current -gen gaming console and a couple of AAA titles? Skiing? Civil War reenacting? Ever price a good set of chef's knives and copper-bottomed pans? Or buy season tickets for a sports team? All of this costs money, usually quite a bit. Sure but that same $500 could buy you easily ten to twenty other RPGs which would in all likelihood be a lot better than Invisible Sun. I'm not even going to touch on the "is this privilege or not?" argument but it's perfectly valid to say that spending $500 on an RPG by someone stuck trying to reinvent Dungeons & Dragons is kind of dumb. I am intensely skeptical that Invisible Sun contains $500 worth of value.
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Aug 15, 2018 04:51
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Also bear in mind buying a game line can be similarly expensive. you just don't think of it that way because you're nickeled and dimed. This. You're looking at $300+ just to get all the core books for Shadowrun's current edition, for example, and that's not including any of the sundries for play. Don't even ask about anything in the miniatures gaming space, or TCGs.
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Aug 15, 2018 05:41
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FMguru posted:Brian/KJA expanded universe crap folded in. Oh, awesome 
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Aug 15, 2018 06:35
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"we're making that game you want!" *cheering* "with that one thing you definitely wanted not in it in it!" ah, licensing.
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Aug 15, 2018 06:42
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Hopefully they structure things in "Era" wrappers a la Star Wars, so us purists can easily leave the prequel/sequel stuff out.
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Aug 15, 2018 09:53
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The thing that annoys me about Invisible Sun's price is that most of it's probably not going towards paying developers more, it's going towards a plastic hand and spell cards and a bunch of other stuff which isn't actually necessary to play the game. It's like selling a deluxe version of a board game without selling the entry-level version, and then telling people to get their friends to pool their money if they can't afford it.
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Aug 15, 2018 12:40
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:His thesis, which I do not agree with, is that European gamers love Warhammer Fantasy RPG and that Harlem Unbound and Delta Green are too American for them. (The point your buddy is missing is that lots of European games run stuff set in the US because we're used to so much media coming from there we have no problem with setting stories there. Over there in Yankerdoodlestan it's much more viable to immerse yourself entirely in media which solely related to your own country - out here, not so much.)
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Aug 15, 2018 15:54
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Zandar posted:The thing that annoys me about Invisible Sun's price is that most of it's probably not going towards paying developers more, it's going towards a plastic hand and spell cards and a bunch of other stuff which isn't actually necessary to play the game. It's like selling a deluxe version of a board game without selling the entry-level version, and then telling people to get their friends to pool their money if they can't afford it. If I remember correctly, they're not even doing a pdf version. Its the $200+ box or nothing.
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Aug 15, 2018 15:57
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Evil Mastermind posted:If I remember correctly, they're not even doing a pdf version. Its the $200+ box or nothing. Yeah, especially because there's a phone app that lets you resolve things on the fly without the deck. Though the reason for the App's existence is one of the other things that bothers me about the game, because they state that "being able to walk up to your storyteller anywhere in the real world and being able to have them adjudicate your downtime actions that you came up with on your lunch break" as a selling point.
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Aug 15, 2018 16:00
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Haystack posted:Chaosium isn't a bad tree to bark up. They've got their submissions guidelines laid out here. They're also looking for fiction submissions, if that's in your wheelhouse. (The strategy I'd go for if I was very keen to work for Chaosium was submitting stuff first via their submissions guidelines, and then if they reject it consider putting it on Miskatonic Repository to see if the general public bites. Then the work isn't a total waste, and if customers prove to be keen on something Chaosium passed up they might be more inclined to accept later submissions.)
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Aug 15, 2018 16:01
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Kurieg posted:Though the reason for the App's existence is one of the other things that bothers me about the game, because they state that "being able to walk up to your storyteller anywhere in the real world and being able to have them adjudicate your downtime actions that you came up with on your lunch break" as a selling point.
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Aug 15, 2018 17:28
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Evil Mastermind posted:You know what else lets you do that? Texts. Or email. Or skype. Or discord. Or Google hangouts. Or pretty much any communication app. BUT THEN YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO RESOLVE THE ACTION THROUGH THE WONDERS OF THE SOOTH DECK!!?!!?!!
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Aug 15, 2018 17:32
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love to have a sanctioned way to demand work from my GM outside of gaming hours
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Aug 15, 2018 17:37
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90s Cringe Rock posted:"we're making that game you want!" By that company you really dislike Edit: quote:The full range of products, including board and miniatures games, are scheduled to release just prior to the upcoming Dune theatrical release in 2020. GF9 plans to align with other game companies in numerous categories and formats for future releases as well. So they're aiming to have a 2 year development cycle on probably a Landsraad boardgame, a skirmish game which is going to be fremen vs harkonnen and, err...some other stuff they try and fit in, to tie into the release of part 1 of a 2 part movie that's still being written. Guaranteed to go well. I suspect the Herbert estate have been looking at GoT money and thinking 'we want all of that' given they're also wanting to do a TV series and computer games. PST fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 18:19
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FMguru posted:Hobbies, by definition, are kind of expensive. Want to get into golf? Or woodworking? Or photography? Or SCUBA diving? Or mountain biking? Stamp collecting? Music production? A current -gen gaming console and a couple of AAA titles? Skiing? Civil War reenacting? Ever price a good set of chef's knives and copper-bottomed pans? Or buy season tickets for a sports team? All of this costs money, usually quite a bit. Okay but this is not paying $500 to get an experience that $500 alone will get you, this isn't a SCUBA set allowing you to actually submerge for a while or a mountain bike + airfare to the mountains or whatever. This is a $500 version that basically just throws bells and whistles onto the less expensive version. This is more like if I was a cooking hobbyist and someone told me I had to buy ~hanzo steel~ instead of just a good enough pretty inexpensive knife - it's my hobby, sure, but it's a really dumb and bad choice driven by a culture of privilege that emphasizes expensive things for the sake of expensive things. A much better direct comparison is video game 'deluxe' edition bullshit that is getting just as out of hand as this crap, and is also an example of ridiculous privilege that is also damaging to that industry.
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Aug 15, 2018 18:30
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That same argument applies to $30 (and $10 and $1) books, which are also just bells and whistles on top of ones that are freely available. I don't think anyone is telling anyone they "have to" buy the $500 rpg box. On the other hand, if expensive products mean more writers and artists can now receive Actual Pay for their work instead of just submitting words to a publisher for pennies, that's a really good thing. It's not bad to choose to charge $500 for something if that's what it takes to pay fair wages to your creators, how is demanding cheap rpg materials any different from demanding that artists and writers work for pennies so more people can play RPGs? I get that this feels like locking out people who can't pay $500, but again, just about every RPG has a free version available. It's not like it's *really* inaccessible because you can't afford to pay for it, it's just inconvenient.
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Aug 15, 2018 18:42
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Counterpoint: it's Monte Cook
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Aug 15, 2018 18:45
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Yeah I don't care about this particular product but to say that RPGs should never cost $500 is to say that RPG creators should never be paid fairly unless they win the popularity lottery.
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Aug 15, 2018 18:47
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RPGs should cost more than they do, but $500 is not a reasonable price for any business model I can think of.
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Aug 15, 2018 18:52
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Rand Brittain posted:RPGs should cost more than they do, but $500 is not a reasonable price for any business model I can think of. It made $660k, so assuming they didn't screw up the production and shipping costs, that's probably a decent return for making 1600-2k copies. Probably not sustainable long-term, but there are enough people willing to spend silly money on their pretendy-fun-time games to make a niche of the niche work.
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Aug 15, 2018 18:54
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PST posted:It made $660k, so assuming they didn't screw up the production and shipping costs, that's probably a decent return for making 1600-2k copies. They did screw them up. I mean, maybe they didn't? I don't actually know. I just can't imagine that people in this industry didn't, and if somehow they pulled it off, they're a freak that will serve as a bad example to all the other people who might follow their example.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:06
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I mean, if you think a $500 RPG is silly, just look at how many people bought into the $2,000 tier on the Kingdom Death: Monster kickstarter. And that game is bloody awful.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:28
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The fact that people do dumbass poo poo all the time doesn't actually make it less dumb.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:39
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Rand Brittain posted:RPGs should cost more than they do, but $500 is not a reasonable price for any business model I can think of. It's not $500 so I have no idea why goonkind has glommed onto the $500 figure. During the KS, it was just shy of $200, which is only like $50 more than the D&D 5e corebook cover price. Retail looks like $250.
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Aug 15, 2018 20:01
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rpgs should be free like everything else lol at spending $500 for monte cook's big black hand rpg tho
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Aug 15, 2018 20:08
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dwarf74 posted:That's the weird part, here. It was 500 during the KS for the version that included an adventure path.
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Aug 15, 2018 20:17
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Rand Brittain posted:They did screw them up. Are you trying to say that a project being managed well is a bad thing
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Aug 16, 2018 01:25
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Are you trying to say that a project being managed well is a bad thing I'm saying that 99% of people in this industry who tried something like that will end in ruin, and the other 1% probably succeeded at random, if at all, and will encourage people to try projects that are beyond them.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:32
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Rand Brittain posted:I'm saying that 99% of people in this industry who tried something like that will end in ruin, and the other 1% probably succeeded at random, if at all, and will encourage people to try projects that are beyond them. Yes and why is that a bad thing People have titanic-ally failed at producing a simple PoD rulebook before.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:38
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Kurieg posted:It was 500 during the KS for the version that included an adventure path.
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Aug 16, 2018 05:13
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Serf posted:rpgs should be free like everything else my free PBTA game about the Battle of Matewan and Blair Mountain is going to be called Du Bois & Debs
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Aug 16, 2018 05:44
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Yes and why is that a bad thing Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a stretch goal for?
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Aug 16, 2018 06:48
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Yeah I don't care about this particular product but to say that RPGs should never cost $500 is to say that RPG creators should never be paid fairly unless they win the popularity lottery. Well, that's what you've effectively been arguing for in this thread, because that's what making RPGs cost that much would do. Things like this: Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Privilege is assuming you're entitled to hundreds of hours of enjoyment for a group of 4-6 for $50. Literally one sentence after the other are self-contradictory and nonsensical; you're not actually saying much beyond, "Stop complaining about things being expensive," and possibly, "I don't know what 'privilege' means/I saw the word 'privilege' and had to argue against it," because proclaiming that it's entitled to think the entry-level price of an RPG should be less than nearly half the average monthly income of a minimum wage worker, while also saying that people should just pirate things they can't or don't want to pay for and that makes higher prices not a problem, makes no sense, and both run counter to actually seeing RPG makers get paid more. (A thing that should definitely happen, mind; the rates some get paid at are atrocious and should be criminal. The industry is often downright exploitative of the workers in it.) A future where the average price of getting into an RPG is hundreds of dollars is a future where almost every RPG is made by companies like WotC and Paizo (who will still be paying their employees and contractors as little as they think they can get away with) because being an indie RPG maker has become even less feasible if you don't score big on Kickstarter, the growing popularity of RPGs has ended and the hobby is firmly back in "a thing for nerds" territory, and a lot of people either decide it costs too much money or are priced out entirely, and whether they just drop the hobby altogether, stick to things like FLGS sessions and online campaigns run by people who can afford the hobby, or just, as you say, pirate the stuff, they're still giving little to no money to RPG makers. Which is not a great way for them to make more money. Perfect if you want them to make less, though. And yes, there is very much a form of privilege in being able to drop hundreds of dollars on a game. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Aug 16, 2018 |
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Aug 16, 2018 07:01
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Obviously being free to spend <lots of money> on <non-necessity> is one of the most basic form of privilege there is - that was never in question. The reason those are in separate quote boxes is because they were separate thoughts. I think it is good for RPG creators in general that $500 RPGs exist in some salable form. I think that $50 divided among a group of five per, say, hundred hours of gaming is extremely low and only possible because of the exploitation of artists and writers. I think the average should be higher than that. That doesn't mean every RPG should be $500 and I don't really see how you can read that from my posts. It's good for there to be RPGs at a wide range of prices, such that the high end ones can effectively fund the fair creation of lower-priced ones. I think I can say that while still acknowledging that it's weird that we live in a society where some people arbitrarily get to buy more things than others. I also do indeed I think if you want to play a specific RPG and can pay for it, you should, but if you want to play a specific RPG and can't pay for it, you probably should pirate it and play it anyway. I think that's the most you can reasonably ask of people who lack the privilege discussed above.
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Aug 16, 2018 08:30
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Roland Jones posted:Well, that's what you've effectively been arguing for in this thread, because that's what making RPGs cost that much would do. Things like this: Do you honestly believe without irony that we have a future incoming where RPGs can realistically cost hundreds of dollars to get into? Where we, currently, right now, have a market where hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of RPGs of every type possible are for sale, many of them in pdf form for less than ten bucks? I'm asking if you truly believe believe that tons of really popular RPGs that have a single corebook and that's realistically all you need will suddenly disappear? Markets don't work like that. They have never worked like that. I have so far seen absolutely zero evidence anyone is trying to produce products as expensive as this single RPG, nor do I ever see this becoming a trend. Like, Dungeon Crawl Classics produces a several hundred dollar corebook for grogs than want a leather cover. They also produce a hardcover for 40 dollars, and a softcover for 30. Specialty products that cost lots of money are everywhere. You can buy the new Limited Edition Covers coming out for 5e DnD for 200+ dollars, or get the entire pack for 97. Literally the only think IS's costly costly core set does is hurt the potential of its own line. Also the vast, vast majority of people I play RPGs with and have played with don't buy many RPG books or any at all. Some never bought their own dice. That's also very normal and okay and fine. Your vision of a future where this "thing for nerds" thing already exists and is now. Do you really think that most people that play DnD5e actually own their own corebooks? There's an RPG club that meets in the library downtown where I live and they have exactly 2 PHBs and they're both owned by the same person. 16 people.
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Aug 16, 2018 15:44
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I feel like if Bugatti released some 350k supercar and called it "the future of automobiles" we would all rightly realize that this is just marketing claptrap about how ~amazingly advanced~ it is without making the leap to "they're saying everyone should be paying 350k for a supercar". Yet somehow an RPG essentially doing the same thing has scrambled some circuits. Nobody thinks the future of the hobby is 500 dollar RPG_CUBES, jeez. I hope nobody thinks Monte is seriously proposing this. It's just a comment on how ~amazingly advanced~ their mechanics and play aids are. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Aug 16, 2018 |
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Aug 16, 2018 16:13
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dwarf74 posted:That's the weird part, here. On the other hand, this is $500 https://www.beadleandgrimms.com/store-swag/platinum-edition I suspect it's going to sell about 50 copies, but still, that's a thing some people are making...
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Aug 16, 2018 16:25
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I feel like if Bugatti released some 350k supercar and called it "the future of automobiles" we would all rightly realize that this is just marketing claptrap about how ~amazingly advanced~ it is without making the leap to "they're saying everyone should be paying 350k for a supercar". If Bugatti released a 1998 Dodge Neon, sold it for $350,000, and called it the future of automobiles, it would certainly scramble some people's circuits.
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Aug 16, 2018 16:27
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Jimbozig posted:If Bugatti released a 1998 Dodge Neon, sold it for $350,000, and called it the future of automobiles, it would certainly scramble some people's circuits. Hey look, there are more expensive cars in this hobby, OK?
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Aug 16, 2018 16:37
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