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Autoexec.bat
Dec 29, 2012

Just one more level

Godholio posted:

That was my guess. Steering box may need adjustment. I've got one from the 60s that needs a rebuild, I've got a couple of inches (each direction) of slop to deal with.

Steering box was installed 6 months ago brand new so I sure hope that's not it. I was considering replacing all the rubber and the tie rod ends again, it was all changed in 2009 but that's almost 10 years ago now. We also suspect the tires which have very soft sidewalls and are showing signs of dry rot.

Xinlum posted:

My 2000 grand marquis has no power going to the air conditioner control. My turn signals are also not working. I checked the fuses under the steering wheel and all are good. What could be the issue? Everything was working fine earlier today.

Some googling says they may be on the same fuse, if they are replace the fuse even if it looks ok. Internet says it may be fuse #5. There was also mention that it can happen if the AC clutch has broken so make sure your AC is off when you test it. There's really very few other explanations for more than one electrical thing breaking at the same time other than animals or rusty wires. Heck a few days ago my suburban's dome light, horn, and cigarette lighter all died at once, the fuse was not labelled any of those things.

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Xinlum
Apr 12, 2009

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a Dark Knight

I changed the fuses mentioned and used a tester. All fuses are good. Still no air or turn signals.

Xinlum fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Aug 14, 2018

Autoexec.bat
Dec 29, 2012

Just one more level
Hmm, that's strange then. Have you tried swapping the blinker and hazard relays? That's usually a quick way to test the blinkers in most cars I've had. I'm at a loss for the A/C though. You may have to do some detective work with a volt meter to find the bad part unfortunately.

Autoexec.bat fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Aug 14, 2018

Xinlum
Apr 12, 2009

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a Dark Knight

Alright I think I know what's going on. The AC in this car has always been wonky. Heater never worked and would only make clicking noises. My understanding is this is some blend door or something. Anyway I was driving home from work and heard it start clicking. On a hunch I tried turning my system back on and the air was working again, and my blinkers! For about 2 minutes. Then it switched to hot air. I went home and ran the self diagnostic on the AC by pressing the Floor+Off buttons together, then the Automatic button. When i first got the car this was how I got the AC to work the first time, and I just never adjusted it again. I restarted the car and now everything is dead again. If I have a mechanic change out the blend actuator door, would that solve my issue?

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






Impossible to say without proper diagnosis. Right now all you did is some hokey pokey and some jiggling and you expect this to give a definite diagnosis.

Grakkus
Sep 4, 2011

What are the chances of both front wheel bearings going out at the same time? My girlfriend's car is in the shop and the guy is saying that both need to be done. The car makes a pretty loud noise when driving over 25mph, that goes away when turning left, and stays the same when turning right. It smells like bullshit to me. The car is a FWD hatchback that has like 66k miles on it.

MrOnBicycle
Jan 18, 2008
Wait wat?
Aren't bearings one of those things that you do both sides on when one goes out? Given how cheap it usually is, it might as well be cheaper in the end to do both.

Bajaha
Apr 1, 2011

BajaHAHAHA.



Yeah, typically they see the same conditions so unless one's hosed because it got smacked into a curb, you typically want to replace them in pairs as the other one is probably going to go bad soon as well.

Fo3
Feb 14, 2004

RAAAAARGH!!!! GIFT CARDS ARE FUCKING RETARDED!!!!

(I need a hug)
Yeah, you do both. My left is pretty noisy during right-hand turns, my right bearing isn't as noisy, but if you listen out for it there's a slight noise during left hand turns - no where near as loud and I wouldn't pick it up unless listening for it but it's probably due for replacement as well.

Grakkus
Sep 4, 2011

Fair enough, thanks guys. Never needed to replace a wheel bearing before.

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008
Doesn't it depend on how old the car is? I think around the early 2000s most manufacturers changed to sealed wheel bearings which last longer than the old type and don't ever get serviced instead they get replaced if they go bad.

Karma Comedian
Feb 2, 2012

Is there some trick to changing the driver side running light on a 2016 Jetta? I read online about turning the wheel and opening the access panel but there is no access panel and my hand didn't bend appropriately to reach in the light.

Dennis McClaren
Mar 28, 2007

"Hey, don't put capture a guy!"
...Well I've got to put something!

Karma Comedian posted:

Is there some trick to changing the driver side running light on a 2016 Jetta? I read online about turning the wheel and opening the access panel but there is no access panel and my hand didn't bend appropriately to reach in the light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv7X3b8ZAtg

The trick is to check youtube.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!
alright so this question is incredibly loving stupid but not for the normal reason.

i have a 2001 grand marquis with going on 190k miles on it. i've put on about 170k of those miles myself. it's a loving fantastic car. i really cannot say enough good things about it. i've taken care of it as best i can and in return it has never given me trouble.

my problem started last december. i live on the edge of the burbs heading out to rural areas in kansas, so basically there's tons of trees and space - and that means tons of little wildlife around. that includes loving squirrels.

those furry asswitch dickheads decided to get all up in my undercarriage during the coldest part of the year to try to stay warm, and while they were up there they decided to gnaw the poo poo out of some of my electrical system. i noticed my car was running like poo poo, took it to the mechanicm and it was dutifully repaired, at a price of $loving more than it should've been because the distributed animal damage meant they had to run new electrical cable around a fair bit of the loving engine.

then the same thing happened again in february, this time with an added cherry on top of one of the satan spawned fucks taking a poo poo in such a way that it gummed up one of my windshield wiper motivators. no i don't really have too many details because i'm not that automotively inclined but the trip involved my mechanic showing me loving polaroids of the dump a squirrel took under my car hood. it looked like they had loving explicitly torn the rubber and plastic away for use in nesting elsewhere and then taken a loving poo poo in there to spite me. he was so amazed it had happened that he put it up on the employee corkboard for many lols to come.

now a good 6 months later, my car started running like poo poo again and i took it into the mechanic, and lo and behold, it's more fur, damaged electrical wire, etc in there. my mechanic is actually fixing it on the house this time because we've known each other for like 10 years and he feels so bad about how much the loving rodents are messing with me. i have no idea why they came back now since it's not cold outside but the evidence of them being there, and recently, is strong

so i ask you all - completely and totally unironically: how can i murder the goddamn squirrels that are damned and determined to destroy my beloved car? i am one hundred percent prepared to use some sort of trapping system to kill the loving things but i have no idea where to start.

Karma Comedian
Feb 2, 2012


Oh hey wow neat a video I already watched about changing the passenger side instead of the driver side why didn't I think of that

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011
While true, that attitude won't help you out friend.

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

Karma Comedian posted:

Oh hey wow neat a video I already watched about changing the passenger side instead of the driver side why didn't I think of that

This guy shows both options, either reaching in blind with the restricted access on the driver side and trying to get it, or removing the wheel and 16 T25 bolts to get the fender liner out which gives a little more access:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCvbQ1UR_k0&t=190s
Alternate option around 4:20.

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

Coolguye posted:

alright so this question is incredibly loving stupid but not for the normal reason.

i have a 2001 grand marquis with going on 190k miles on it. i've put on about 170k of those miles myself. it's a loving fantastic car. i really cannot say enough good things about it. i've taken care of it as best i can and in return it has never given me trouble.

my problem started last december. i live on the edge of the burbs heading out to rural areas in kansas, so basically there's tons of trees and space - and that means tons of little wildlife around. that includes loving squirrels.

those furry asswitch dickheads decided to get all up in my undercarriage during the coldest part of the year to try to stay warm, and while they were up there they decided to gnaw the poo poo out of some of my electrical system. i noticed my car was running like poo poo, took it to the mechanicm and it was dutifully repaired, at a price of $loving more than it should've been because the distributed animal damage meant they had to run new electrical cable around a fair bit of the loving engine.

then the same thing happened again in february, this time with an added cherry on top of one of the satan spawned fucks taking a poo poo in such a way that it gummed up one of my windshield wiper motivators. no i don't really have too many details because i'm not that automotively inclined but the trip involved my mechanic showing me loving polaroids of the dump a squirrel took under my car hood. it looked like they had loving explicitly torn the rubber and plastic away for use in nesting elsewhere and then taken a loving poo poo in there to spite me. he was so amazed it had happened that he put it up on the employee corkboard for many lols to come.

now a good 6 months later, my car started running like poo poo again and i took it into the mechanic, and lo and behold, it's more fur, damaged electrical wire, etc in there. my mechanic is actually fixing it on the house this time because we've known each other for like 10 years and he feels so bad about how much the loving rodents are messing with me. i have no idea why they came back now since it's not cold outside but the evidence of them being there, and recently, is strong

so i ask you all - completely and totally unironically: how can i murder the goddamn squirrels that are damned and determined to destroy my beloved car? i am one hundred percent prepared to use some sort of trapping system to kill the loving things but i have no idea where to start.

A squirrel bit a chunk out of the evap line from my fuel tank a couple of years ago. The mechanic had to drop the tank to put in new lines so it was not that cheap. I tried some fox urine granule style repellent for a while but it didn't seem to keep the squirrels away, really. I'd give a repellent that's supposed to work on vehicles a shot first, then look at traps. Or do both!
https://smile.amazon.com/Protection-Exterminators-Choice-Mice-Repellent-Chewing-All/dp/B01DTBOV06/
edit: some folks say this spray is ineffective and suggest strong scents rodents dislike like irish spring soap and dryer sheets. Haven't tried those myself but maybe worth a shot?

Shawn Woods' youtube channel is just full of mousetraps, rat traps, squirrel traps, etc. He lives in a rodent rich area so his whole youtube niche is trying out traps. Here's a couple he liked:
Live catch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lHzvpsR8A4
Kill trap:
Linking this one because of dead animals

You can just search his videos for more squirrel stuff, there's a few in there. I've managed to park in the garage more lately so it's been less of an issue but there's a whole gamut of things to try from the repellents to traps to killing them with pellet guns, but the main thing to remember is that squirrels are absolute dicks and will wreck anything to get food or nesting materials or whatever.

Rexxed fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Aug 14, 2018

KakerMix
Apr 8, 2004

8.2 M.P.G.
:byetankie:
And here we feed the squirrels peanuts, since we've started they leave our bird feeders alone. They also never damage anything of ours either though.

Basically I have no idea but that sucks. Even if you were to judiciously kill them wouldn't just more come back? You'd have to keep your killing fields active all the time.

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

KakerMix posted:

And here we feed the squirrels peanuts, since we've started they leave our bird feeders alone. They also never damage anything of ours either though.

Basically I have no idea but that sucks. Even if you were to judiciously kill them wouldn't just more come back? You'd have to keep your killing fields active all the time.

Yeah, from what I understand killing them is just thinning the local population, it's something that will have to be repeated and won't be a guarantee of anything besides reducing the chances that a wayward rodent will take a liking to your vehicle.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!
i've been living in this same place for a long time and have never had problems with squirrels up to this point. due to this, my exact thought was that it was a specific family that had taken a liking to my car so if i murdered the fuckers and dropped some sort of repellent as a warning to others the problem will clear itself up, but i had no ideas more specific than "murder them" and "use repellent"

also i am definitely going to just use kill traps; since they are definitely loving around in my vehicle to nest, live trap -> remove from range is just going to kill them slower from from the stress and confusion of being removed from their turf. bunch of faff for killing a squirrel more brutally is what it boils down to, and while i have no love for squirrels, especially not after causing over $1k in damage to my car, i'm not really in the mood to torture them.

thanks for the link and i will continue to research rodent scent hates!

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

JUST MAKING CHILI posted:

Doesn't it depend on how old the car is? I think around the early 2000s most manufacturers changed to sealed wheel bearings which last longer than the old type and don't ever get serviced instead they get replaced if they go bad.

I think it was more when car makers transitioned to FWD. At least, my 88 Accord had sealed bearings.

KakerMix
Apr 8, 2004

8.2 M.P.G.
:byetankie:

Coolguye posted:

i've been living in this same place for a long time and have never had problems with squirrels up to this point. due to this, my exact thought was that it was a specific family that had taken a liking to my car so if i murdered the fuckers and dropped some sort of repellent as a warning to others the problem will clear itself up, but i had no ideas more specific than "murder them" and "use repellent"

also i am definitely going to just use kill traps; since they are definitely loving around in my vehicle to nest, live trap -> remove from range is just going to kill them slower from from the stress and confusion of being removed from their turf. bunch of faff for killing a squirrel more brutally is what it boils down to, and while i have no love for squirrels, especially not after causing over $1k in damage to my car, i'm not really in the mood to torture them.

thanks for the link and i will continue to research rodent scent hates!

Oh I don't give a poo poo, murder them. I just didn't want you to burn out with the constant killing if that's what you need to do. Maybe it is just the one family!

Dennis McClaren
Mar 28, 2007

"Hey, don't put capture a guy!"
...Well I've got to put something!
06 Durango SLT 4.7L v8

Was taking some sharp turns when the engine died abruptly, I lost electrical power, and then it all just came back on. The C.E.L. stayed blinking the entire drive home, but otherwise the truck seemed to drive okay. I even drove it up the Massive hills I normally have to in order to drive home. Also stopped for over a minute at stoplights, no hesitations or anything..

I ran my B.T. OBDII sensor, and a whole bunch of codes popped up. P2302 , P300, P335, and P430, but 430 was just the gas cap being loose.

My guess is that maybe a spark plug went bad? Apparently they're ignition coils in this truck. But if all those things went bad consecutively, wouldn't the truck have issues driving? Or did maybe the ECU just get all jammed up from the momentary loss of power?

I ran the OBD again, and some codes stayed, some disappeared. I'm not sure what's going on.

Dennis McClaren fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Aug 15, 2018

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer
I had an ant hill in my car once. At least I figure that’s what it was. I parked over a bunch of them and then I had a colony that followed me around where ever I went. They used my car door seals as their primary roadway. And I didn’t even have food in the car. Nature sucks.

Maybe if you thin the herd hanging around your car the ones that fill the predator void won’t know how fun your vehicle is. It’s not natural for squirrels to loving love your car. You need to get rid of the ones that do before they teach other rodents to love cars.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009

Dennis McClaren posted:

06 Durango SLT 4.7L v8

Was taking some sharp turns when the engine died abruptly, I lost electrical power, and then it all just came back on. The C.E.L. stayed blinking the entire drive home, but otherwise the truck seemed to drive okay. I even drove it up the Massive hills I normally have to in order to drive home. Also stopped for over a minute at stoplights, no hesitations or anything..

I ran my B.T. OBDII sensor, and a whole bunch of codes popped up. P2302 , P300, P335, and P430, but 430 was just the gas cap being loose.

My guess is that maybe a spark plug went bad? Apparently they're ignition coils in this truck. But if all those things went bad consecutively, wouldn't the truck have issues driving? Or did maybe the ECU just get all jammed up from the momentary loss of power?

I ran the OBD again, and some codes stayed, some disappeared. I'm not sure what's going on.

Your engine ground is bad. Potentially as simple as the battery negative, but I'll let some Dodge people weigh in as to where the real problem may be.

Literally Lewis Hamilton
Feb 22, 2005



Have you considered getting a cat for those squirrels?

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer

big crush on Chad OMG posted:

Have you considered getting a cat for those squirrels?

Fast forward one year to him complaining his Grand Marquis is full of cats.

Dennis McClaren
Mar 28, 2007

"Hey, don't put capture a guy!"
...Well I've got to put something!

Motronic posted:

Your engine ground is bad. Potentially as simple as the battery negative, but I'll let some Dodge people weigh in as to where the real problem may be.

I checked the negative battery cable and terminal this morning. Everything seems to be tight and in order.
I watched a few YT vids on fixing an engine ground. Honestly I don't really understand car electrical systems that well. So I'm going to work with the codes I've got right now.
I have a feeling I'll be taking the truck into my mechanic to look around for a bad ground, if any of the issues persist.

Started the truck up this morning and drove it around awhile - didn't notice any problems. But I am still getting 2 C.E.L. codes -
P2302 = P2302 is a general OBD2 diagnostic trouble code indicating a fault within the ignition coil A secondary circuit. This code may be seen with misfire codes as well as other ignition system codes.
and
P335 = Error Code P0335 is described as Crankshaft Position Sensor “A” Circuit Malfunction. This means the vehicle’s ECM (Electronic Control Module) has not yet detected the crankshaft position sensor during the first second of cranking of the engine.

I went ahead and bought new ignition coils and spark plugs. I don't know when they were last serviced, so I thought it prudent to get this done anyway.

I am totally clueless as to PO335 and anything regarding crankshaft sensors. But, the truck turns over and starts just fine. The google makes it sound as it P0335 is some bad poo poo - but I'm not experiencing any other symptoms than the code itself?

Surprise Giraffe
Apr 30, 2007
1 Lunar Road
Moon crater
The Moon
How unlikely am I to get through the bolt on my Golf's drop links with a dremel multitool cutter? It looks quite a bit thicker than the sort of thing you usually see those applied to. On the other hand it's a bit tight back there for an angle grinder. Not sure which to go for..

Invalido
Dec 28, 2005

BICHAELING

Surprise Giraffe posted:

How unlikely am I to get through the bolt on my Golf's drop links with a dremel multitool cutter? It looks quite a bit thicker than the sort of thing you usually see those applied to. On the other hand it's a bit tight back there for an angle grinder. Not sure which to go for..

If you have a cutting disc just a tad more than twice the diameter of what you want to cut it's doable. When making deep cuts with a dremel you'll need a steady hand and keep things straight because the discs will bog down or shatter if you're getting bound up on the walls of the slot you just cut.
If you're thinking about buying either of these tools the answer is to get both. A small rotary tool doesn't have to be labeled "dremel" to be useful either, though their name brand cutting discs with the flexible spindle are really good and resilient.

The Door Frame
Dec 5, 2011

I don't know man everytime I go to the gym here there are like two huge dudes with raging high and tights snorting Nitro-tech off of each other's rock hard abs.
I'm in the market for used OEM rims, because I hate the look of new alloy rims on most classic cars. I know to look out for cracks, excessive curb rash, and to roll/spin the wheel to check for larger dents, but is there any way to check the offset, width, and hub bore size by looking at the wheel itself, or do I need to just look it up for each car I come across?
Any other hints or things I should know before purchasing?

E:

Surprise Giraffe posted:

How unlikely am I to get through the bolt on my Golf's drop links with a dremel multitool cutter? It looks quite a bit thicker than the sort of thing you usually see those applied to. On the other hand it's a bit tight back there for an angle grinder. Not sure which to go for..

I have one of the torque-ier dremels that I primarily use in place of a real die grinder. The flex extension and an oversized cutting disc will make most problems go away, but a steady hand and a little forethought is a must. The dremel cutting discs are so fragile that I went through 5 of the things trying to chop through a couple of rounded off bolts because I tried to use them in the same way I would use a angle grinder's thicker cut/grind discs

The Door Frame fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Aug 15, 2018

HenryJLittlefinger
Jan 31, 2010

stomp clap


Maybe this is a better post for the A/T car buying thread, and feel free to send me there if it is.

I took the family car (09 Toyota Matrix) in to the big Toyota dealership in town for an airbag recall fix the other day. Couple days later, I get an email from the dealership saying something along the lines of "Your 09 Matrix is a high demand car around here and we'll pay you above market value for it if you bring it in." It's got like 120K on it or so. Maybe a little more.

Is this just a strategy to get you to buy a new car from a dealership?

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011

Metal Geir Skogul posted:

Scam. Dealers do it to everyone they touch.

HenryJLittlefinger
Jan 31, 2010

stomp clap


Ha! Thanks, I was pretty sure that's what it was. Odd that I've never seen that before.

Autoexec.bat
Dec 29, 2012

Just one more level
Yeah they once called me because they really needed a 2000 camry with true miles unknown on the title and 320k on the carfax a couple years back. I didn't believe them. Another common one is the extended automotive warranties. They called my dad and when he told them his newest car was a 94 Camaro they hung up immediately.

Autoexec.bat fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Aug 16, 2018

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

HenryJLittlefinger posted:

Maybe this is a better post for the A/T car buying thread, and feel free to send me there if it is.

I took the family car (09 Toyota Matrix) in to the big Toyota dealership in town for an airbag recall fix the other day. Couple days later, I get an email from the dealership saying something along the lines of "Your 09 Matrix is a high demand car around here and we'll pay you above market value for it if you bring it in." It's got like 120K on it or so. Maybe a little more.

Is this just a strategy to get you to buy a new car from a dealership?

My 2006 Saturn with 203k miles, sitting in a junkyard, is also in high demand. As is my mom's 2003 Toyota Avalon with 170k.

.... GF drives a 2005 Matrix, pretty sure her car will be in high demand if/when she ever takes it in for the airbag recall.

Autoexec.bat posted:

Yeah they once called me because they really needed a 2000 camry with true miles unknown on the title and 320k on the carfax a couple years back. I didn't believe them. Another common one is the extended automotive warranties. They called my dad and when he told them his newest car was a 94 Camaro they hung up immediately.

I tell them I drive a Saturn with 500k and ask if they'll warranty it for another 500k. Gets rid of them pretty quick.

Dennis McClaren posted:

Started the truck up this morning and drove it around awhile - didn't notice any problems. But I am still getting 2 C.E.L. codes -
P2302 = P2302 is a general OBD2 diagnostic trouble code indicating a fault within the ignition coil A secondary circuit. This code may be seen with misfire codes as well as other ignition system codes.
and
P335 = Error Code P0335 is described as Crankshaft Position Sensor “A” Circuit Malfunction. This means the vehicle’s ECM (Electronic Control Module) has not yet detected the crankshaft position sensor during the first second of cranking of the engine.

I went ahead and bought new ignition coils and spark plugs. I don't know when they were last serviced, so I thought it prudent to get this done anyway.

I am totally clueless as to PO335 and anything regarding crankshaft sensors. But, the truck turns over and starts just fine. The google makes it sound as it P0335 is some bad poo poo - but I'm not experiencing any other symptoms than the code itself?

I'd hold off on the coils if you didn't get OEM, but new plugs won't hurt (just make sure you got a good brand, like NGK, or Denso - if you got Bosch, return them - they don't really work well in cars not designed for them). If it's still starting easily, 0335 is probably stored from when the electrical went wonky. Some ECUs can still run the engine without the CKP (crank position sensor), but they'll take a lot longer to start (and a lot of ECUs can't run the engine at all without a working CKP). Usually an extra 1-3 seconds of cranking is required if there's a CKP issue. 0335 is almost always coupled with a misfire code (0300 - 0308 for your truck - 00 being random, 01-08 will be cylinder-specific)

I'd disconnect the battery for a minute or two, then reconnect it. See what codes come back. Probably none.

randomidiot fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Aug 16, 2018

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!

big crush on Chad OMG posted:

Have you considered getting a cat for those squirrels?

i'm allergic to cats. i do have a dog, and he does love chasing squirrels, but this is a dog that brought a cricket inside the house in his mouth, put it in his bed without hurting it, and then herded it between his paws for 10 minutes before letting it go. he's so sunny natured i trained him as a therapy dog basically for a fun diversion because it was so easy.

not sure he has it in him to murder a squirrel and he's so attached to his people that he doesn't want to hang outside for a shitload of time to scare things.

HenryJLittlefinger
Jan 31, 2010

stomp clap


I would like an explanation of modern CVTs and their benefits/drawbacks in comparison to modern automatic 6-spds. For reference, I am comparing 2014-2017 RAV4s and CR-Vs and trying to decide if the transmission needs to be part of my decision making process.

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Corla Plankun
May 8, 2007

improve the lives of everyone
I have a 2018 Corolla with a CVT and I feel like it is the extremely economical and 'adult' choice but it is not fun to drive at all. It gets great gas mileage even during my hell-commute, though.

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