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litany of gulps posted:This is fair, but I still would argue that attempting to empower distributed media by attacking media conglomerates is ultimately an approach that would backfire. You would only serve to further consolidate the established media and increasingly shut out the ability for individuals to take advantage of technology's greater ability to distribute information. Again, reducing competition among the media does not somehow allow smaller media groups to function, it stifles exactly that. You continue to promote anti-media talking points, but you are carefully avoiding acknowledging that in countries that have restricted media, you certainly don't have increased freedom. Oh I've been following the conversation fine. Large media corporations are cool, and good, and real, and you want to kiss them on the lips.
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Aug 15, 2018 06:01
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OwlFancier posted:I don't want either of those situations. What do you want, then? If you don't like the worst of reality and you don't like the best of reality, I think you just don't like reality. But you have been carefully avoiding making any statement that isn't an attack on what is real. Malleum posted:You're not the boss of me, Dad!
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Aug 15, 2018 06:06
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litany of gulps posted:What do you want, then? If you don't like the worst of reality and you don't like the best of reality, I think you just don't like reality. But you have been carefully avoiding making any statement that isn't an attack on what is real. OwlFancier posted:It requires a cultural change, the absence of easily available comprehensive understandings of the world on tap from any television or news stand forces people to seek other ways to acquire it, and the wildly variable sources any one person might have access to stands, I think, a better chance of encouraging arguments and collective deliberation of the ideas presented. If you can't realistically hang out with people who watch the same news and read the same papers and think the same things, you're going to have to defend your position more yourself, understand it better, experience criticsm for it. OwlFancier posted:That gap is unavoidable, and my suggestion for filling it, rather than making a new Pravda, is to take a more anarchist approach and look to empower distributed and not for profit information provision, and I think this approach may resonate with a lot of young leftists because we live in an age of social media as a communications platform and the left is insurgent in that area, we all get information that way, by reading stuff on the internet and runnnng it through our lefty mates in order to make sense of it, because it's the only route available to us. If you want a polcy set pulled out of my arse that would be immediately applicable right this second: 1) No enterprise which regularly provides information broadcasts may directly involve more than five people, and cannot have an annual turnover exceeding 1 million dollars. 2) Constitutonal amendment to prevent the US government from broadcasting information other than its own governmental proceedings (which must all be broadcast and transcripts be made available) and bulletins of functional changes to the law, excepting in times of emergency (national disaster etc, spin off things like emergency broadcasts into their own departments which operate more as part of the civil service) Wildly insufficient and impractical without the associated cultural change of a successful young leftist movement, but perhaps that gives you an idea of the kind of environment I want? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 06:10
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In the meantime, Pubey Paul from the Prison World is having a big mood because Jack probated his boss for a week https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1029538091491643392 https://twitter.com/cnnbrk/status/1029555549338263552
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Aug 15, 2018 06:32
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Alex Jones is interesting in the same way a forest fire is warm. It is, it extremely is, but in a bad way.
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Aug 15, 2018 06:34
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A one week suspension is a weird thing because, like, how can anyone look at Alex Jones' output and think "hmm yes, this man will mend his ways if we give him a week to think about what he's done."
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Aug 15, 2018 06:39
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OwlFancier posted:A one week suspension is a weird thing because, like, how can anyone look at Alex Jones' output and think "hmm yes, this man will mend his ways if we give him a week to think about what he's done." Jack just went on Hannity to say that right wing media voices weren't being silenced. Actually punishing him for breaking the rules of the platform is already an unprecedented act and I doubt they did it because they wanted to.
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Aug 15, 2018 07:13
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Yeah it's just... I don't think it's going to actually satisfy anyone or achieve anything. Just a weird decision.
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Aug 15, 2018 07:17
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Malleum posted:Jack just went on Hannity to say that right wing media voices weren't being silenced. Actually punishing him for breaking the rules of the platform is already an unprecedented act and I doubt they did it because they wanted to. His response to CNN showing at least 20 examples of InfoWars and Jones breaking Twitter's rules also blew up in his face. So now Jack's going for a do-over interview with Lester Holt on NBC later this week and hoping he doesn't come across any worse than people are just now starting to realize he is. I mean he had to be dragged into giving Jones a teeny tiny slap on the wrist by a week and a half's worth of sustained public outage. And meanwhile he's still a follower and ardent fan of Weird Mike Cernovich. This is probably as far as Jack's ever gonna go, because, like Jones himself said, he's InfoWars's #1 fan and ally now. There's no scrubbing that off. He owns it now.
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Aug 15, 2018 07:25
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Ah, poo poo. I saw 5 new pages in the RWM thread and thought Sean Hannity got arrested or Rush had a heart attack. Was praying for both. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 13:25
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Jesus Tapdancing Christ. Individual sourcing is what got us here in the first place with the illegitimate children of a dead gay message board driving the charge. And critical thought sometimes takes a lifetime to develop, if it does at all. tl;dr well, "tl;dr" essentially. SpeakSlow fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 14:28
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litany of gulps posted:So CNN is the reason that Trump is President? Seriously? That's the point you're going to make? Yes, the election was narrow enough that Trump does not become president if the media didn't give him a billion in free advertising during the primary and then excluded policy from their election coverage while playing up "butter emails" nonsense which created a false equivalence between Clinton and Trump's scandals. They chose to turn the whole election into a lucrative reality TV circus, yes they are to blame that we ended up with a reality TV President.
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Aug 15, 2018 15:16
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The election was narrow enough that trying to assign blame to any one single factor is a deflection at best; you could also blame it on Comey, Russian troll farms, "deplorables," overconfidence on Clinton's part, the media's need for a horse race, emails, sexism, WikiLeaks, or any number of other influences.
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Aug 15, 2018 16:35
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I'm on vacation in North Carolina with my family. We rent a house on the beach and cook and such. Dad goes to the grocery store for supplies and comes back with Dinesh's "Death of a Nation" and I'm livid. He's the last Republican I expected to go down this path since he's always strictly been someone who wanted his taxes lower and didn't care about the rest of it.
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Aug 15, 2018 16:48
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Keeshhound posted:The election was narrow enough that trying to assign blame to any one single factor is a deflection at best; you could also blame it on Comey, Russian troll farms, "deplorables," overconfidence on Clinton's part, the media's need for a horse race, emails, sexism, WikiLeaks, or any number of other influences. Yes correct, it was a perfect storm of idiocy, arrogance, greed, and incompetence but that doesn't excuse any single actor (Hillary, Podesta, Comey, misogyny, the (failing) New York Times, etc) of their role in the outcome
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Aug 15, 2018 16:51
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Minenfeld! posted:I'm on vacation in North Carolina with my family. We rent a house on the beach and cook and such. Dad goes to the grocery store for supplies and comes back with Dinesh's "Death of a Nation" and I'm livid. He's the last Republican I expected to go down this path since he's always strictly been someone who wanted his taxes lower and didn't care about the rest of it. My dad took the entire family to see "America" when it came out, this was my first exposure to D'Souza and I could not believe how stupid it was or how willfully ignorant my dad had become to buy into it. There was a whole lot of dumb poo poo in that movie ("well actually it's not wrong to break treaties we signed with Native Americans, because they couldn't even sign treaties before we taught them how to write") but I lost my poo poo when D'Souza blamed the Patriot Act on a Democrat plot to silence conservatives for crimethink.
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Aug 15, 2018 16:59
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah it's just... I don't think it's going to actually satisfy anyone or achieve anything. I'm betting it's because of this https://twitter.com/mmfa/status/102...ingawful.com%2F And Jack is trying to cover his rear end.
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Aug 15, 2018 17:42
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OwlFancier posted:If you want a polcy set pulled out of my arse that would be immediately applicable right this second: This personally sounds to me like all broadcast media would devolve into the equivalent of forums posting, to say nothing of how we would apportion the very scarce amount of bandwidth.
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Aug 15, 2018 17:50
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OwlFancier posted:If you want a polcy set pulled out of my arse that would be immediately applicable right this second: So FOXNews changes nothing except maybe it's name and calls what it does 'analysis' or 'entertainment' instead of news. There's no way to police or enforce what you want to do, they'll continue discussing politics; as long as they drop the sane people like Wallace and Shepard that their viewers already aren't crazy about, they can still worship Trump and the far right all day long.
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Aug 15, 2018 17:54
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I've read a lot of weird stuff in this thread but what basically amounts to "abolish the first amendment" is something I definitely didn't see coming. There's an argument to made for the lovely pervasive effect that advertising, ratings and money have on news reporting but I don't see how you can nationalize news outlets without arriving at state run media. Maybe break up some of the bigger telecoms and publishers or re-introduce the Fairness Doctrine on some level but "leave everything up to blogs and social media" is a tremendously stupid idea and I was really surprised to see a 4 page discussion about it. ... to the surprise of absolutely no one: Fox News Considerately Avoids Displaying Trump’s ‘Omarosa’s A Dog’ Tweet http://www.newshounds.us/fox_news_considerately_avoids_trump_s_omarosa_a_dog_tweet_081418 newshounds posted:Donald Trump’s latest Twitter attack on Omarosa Manigault Newman, in which he called her a “dog” and a “lowlife” was so offensive that several Fox News pundits were shocked and stunned. So in today’s discussion about Omarosa on Outnumbered, the producers thoughtfully left it out.
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Aug 15, 2018 18:04
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Minenfeld! posted:I'm on vacation in North Carolina with my family. We rent a house on the beach and cook and such. Dad goes to the grocery store for supplies and comes back with Dinesh's "Death of a Nation" and I'm livid. He's the last Republican I expected to go down this path since he's always strictly been someone who wanted his taxes lower and didn't care about the rest of it. Teach him. Explain that Nazis aren't left wing. Explain that Mike Cernovich isn't a liberal. pop fly to McGillicutty fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 19:45
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Edit: wrong thread.
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Aug 15, 2018 20:57
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the gently caress happened to these people. https://twitter.com/michaelshermer/status/1029729011016945665
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Aug 15, 2018 22:01
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:So FOXNews changes nothing except maybe it's name and calls what it does 'analysis' or 'entertainment' instead of news. There's no way to police or enforce what you want to do, they'll continue discussing politics; as long as they drop the sane people like Wallace and Shepard that their viewers already aren't crazy about, they can still worship Trump and the far right all day long. Hence "which regularly provides information broadcasts", regardless of how they identify, you define broadcast to include all forms of transmission same as we do in the UK for hate speech, if you yell it in public or post it on the internet or beam it over TV it counts. You can also define the content of an information broadcast so that the character of a news show is included, regardless of what it's called. It's not at all unenforceable except for the lack of political will behind it. It's plenty doable on a technical level.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:21
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BiggerBoat posted:I've read a lot of weird stuff in this thread but what basically amounts to "abolish the first amendment" is something I definitely didn't see coming. Censorship... is good!!!!
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Aug 15, 2018 22:22
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OwlFancier posted:Hence "which regularly provides information broadcasts", regardless of how they identify, you define broadcast to include all forms of transmission same as we do in the UK for hate speech, if you yell it in public or post it on the internet or beam it over TV it counts. This is stupid. Late night talk shows routinely discuss the same subjects, as do a lot of comedians. Not to mention stuff like sports pregame shows and things like SportsCenter. Hannity doesn't 'provide information' like an actual news show, he tells you what he thinks about things, not always news or current events, or even things that actually happened (WE GAVE RUSSIA ALL OUR URANIUM!!). There's literally no way to do what you want with the effect you want without impacting other things, not to mention first amendment rights. If anything, your desired course of action would prevent legitimate news reporting while still allowing all the punditry. Also: Government censorship is bad. Don't forget that the administration's position on the immigration child separation policy was 'it is the Democrats fault they need to change the law'. Take away news reporting but allow official government broadcasts and that's all most people would have heard.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:35
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:This is stupid. Late night talk shows routinely discuss the same subjects, as do a lot of comedians. Not to mention stuff like sports pregame shows and things like SportsCenter. That's the idea. Guaranteeing the right to free speech is meaningless when it only guarantees the right of the rich to control the conversation. What it guarantees is the right to own as much speech as you can pay for, how is that compatible with a democracy? You're buying votes. The first amendment should be more like the second amendment because it's significantly harder to kill people with your individual words than it is with your individual gun, but they become extremely dangerous when rallied into a nationwide force under centralized direction. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 22:43
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Minenfeld! posted:I'm on vacation in North Carolina with my family. We rent a house on the beach and cook and such. Dad goes to the grocery store for supplies and comes back with Dinesh's "Death of a Nation" and I'm livid. He's the last Republican I expected to go down this path since he's always strictly been someone who wanted his taxes lower and didn't care about the rest of it. Are you sure he didn't care before? Can you honestly say you know him well enough? Maybe he's just good at not showing how much contempt he has for minorities, women, and lgbtq people. Maybe he's never felt threatened enough to drop any slurs or openly rant about how they're upsetting him. Maybe you don't have enough skin in the game to have noticed these things. I mean, there's a possibility he'll watch the movie and think it's all horseshit... right?
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Aug 15, 2018 23:00
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OwlFancier posted:That's the idea. Yeah I'm gonna jump in with most of the rest of the thread and say your ideas are not viable, effective, or going to make the change you want. Good job of ducking the actual parts where I showed your ideas wouldn't work or would be actively harmful though.
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Aug 15, 2018 23:27
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:Yeah I'm gonna jump in with most of the rest of the thread and say your ideas are not viable, effective, or going to make the change you want. Good job of ducking the actual parts where I showed your ideas wouldn't work or would be actively harmful though. I don't think you can credibly look at the situation today and say "yes but the press is actually protecting us from Trump by occasionally reporting that he does bad things" when my argument is that they will perpetually stifle any actual alternative to him because in the next election any of his critics will get right behind the lovely centrist candidate who can't address any of the things that brought him to power in the first place. You can't look at the press right this second and say "well some of them don't always like Trump so they're clearly a force for good" without looking at the environment they've operated in and actively had a hand in producing for decades, which is the exact environment that led to Trump and his politics in the first place. That there is a bit of money to be made in the occasional limp own directed at the Trump administration does not at all equate to actual opposition to him. They did that with Bush and as we all know, it really put the brakes on his administration. And they did an absolutely bang up job of criticising the lovely parts of the Obama administration that we're definitely not seeing the fruits of with the ICE poo poo today. You can't just take the bits of the media you like right this second and use that to characterise the entire institution. When you look at the institution as a whole, you can not credibly argue that it has protected the US from anything. And I would definitely argue that it is a major contributer to the problem because it enforces the liberal/more racist liberal spectrum on US politics, while being powerless to oppose the far right. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 23:34
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OwlFancier posted:That's the idea. Your ideas are bad. These aren't new problems, and they don't require your draconian half-baked solutions. We could: 1) Move to public financing of elections, abolish campaign contributions, regulate political advertising on behalf of specific candidates during elections 2) Repeal the media ownership rules changes from the past 30 years that have allowed radio, newspapers, and TV to conglomerate 3) Implement net neutrality to ensure telecoms can't run protection rackets on their customers (or better yet, nationalize the telecoms to ensure access) These are problems that pretty much every democracy living under capitalism has had to deal with, and there's lots of solutions available. I suspect you're not interested in these solutions, though, because they're not radical enough for you. A side critique is that the reason you've put so much importance on media is because the American electoral system specifically empowers them. If America had proportional representation and there were more than 2 parties available to choose from you'd probably have more nuance in political reporting than the dumb left/right divide that everything is covered under now. ErIog fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 23:41
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No I think those are good things, but I don't think they're ultimately sustainable and I don't think they address the root problem of creating a culture where you depend on rich media owners to tell you what to think. They would be an improvement, but you would eventually need to move on from them. The electoral system is entirely tangential to the problem of information control, doesn't matter what electoral system you have unless you solve the problem that flow of information is unregulated and entirely in private, moneyed, hands. If I'm going to argue things that are entirely unworkable in the current political climate I'm not going to argue "maybe we could regulate the media a bit" because that itself is unthinkable in the current US political landscape and I don't believe it's a long term solution anyway. A nice thing to happen, sure, but not the end goal. If the opportunity arises to do those things then by all means do them, but don't do them and then be under the impression that it's solved the problem. We've got a lot of those things in the UK already, it doesn't stop the media from completely dominating the political space. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 23:46
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Minenfeld! posted:I'm on vacation in North Carolina with my family. We rent a house on the beach and cook and such. Dad goes to the grocery store for supplies and comes back with Dinesh's "Death of a Nation" and I'm livid. He's the last Republican I expected to go down this path since he's always strictly been someone who wanted his taxes lower and didn't care about the rest of it. loving throw it in a fire
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Aug 16, 2018 00:04
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don't call their dad "it"
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Aug 16, 2018 00:29
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OwlFancier posted:No I think those are good things, but I don't think they're ultimately sustainable and I don't think they address the root problem of creating a culture where you depend on rich media owners to tell you what to think. Only old people rely on rich media owners for information. When it comes to younger people, information comes from everywhere. Mike Cernovich is gaining a following from his Mother-in-Law's basement. Infowars isn't exactly working out of a million dollar studio. Heck, the whole QAnon cult is just some scam by a 4chan user. I don't see how regulating CNN and Fox News changes much for the next generation. And I think their influence is overblown by media members who want to feel more important than they are. A person with just a Twitter account at their disposal can become just as influential today. The problem isn't media, it's societal. It's a country filled with incredibly stupid people that lack the will or ability to think critically. People who would vote against their own self interests because they attach their entire identity to a politician they'll never meet. As for a solution, it's probably just to work as hard as possible to get more people in this country educated. That at least seems to have some correlation to people not falling for the dumbest poo poo possible.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:03
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Groovelord Neato posted:the gently caress happened to these people. The comments on that share that sentiment. Basically old white guys are that out of touch.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:22
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Niwrad posted:Only old people rely on rich media owners for information. When it comes to younger people, information comes from everywhere. Mike Cernovich is gaining a following from his Mother-in-Law's basement. Infowars isn't exactly working out of a million dollar studio. Heck, the whole QAnon cult is just some scam by a 4chan user. I would suggest that a significant part of the lack of critical thought is the media though, the young trend more left than older generations and most of the right wing ones are practicing the same kind of mindless consumption but with a slightly more fringe source, but a source that co-opts many of the standard right wing talking points that the mass media promotes, so even they aren't unrelated. It is that unthinking acceptance of the narrative that makes people at risk of becoming right wing, I think, because their politics are all based around nice stories that don't hold up to critical scrutiny. And this can affect the left too, there are lefties that are excessively credulous in where they get their news from and I think they're the ones most at risk of flipping to some other political affiliation if someone offers them a more appealing sounding narrative, because you can't have good politcal engagment I think without a degree of skepticism about your information sources, you can't really understand leftist political positions without thinking about it, and a good way to encourage that is to get people discussing them in order to make sense of what they're being told. That's what I mean by I don't just want to replace the right wing press with a left wing press, because their journalism is not always very good either and it's not good for the population to be reliant on having their news packaged up complete with "and this is how you should feel and think about it" and no incentive or need to go beyond that. Yes critical education is a good thing too but in the media thread I'm focusing on the role the media plays in it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Aug 16, 2018 |
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Aug 16, 2018 01:26
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Since I started getting all my news from beardy dudes ranting on street corners, my critical thinking capabilities have gone into overdrive.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:51
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think you can credibly look at the situation today and say "yes but the press is actually protecting us from Trump by occasionally reporting that he does bad things" when my argument is that they will perpetually stifle any actual alternative to him because in the next election any of his critics will get right behind the lovely centrist candidate who can't address any of the things that brought him to power in the first place. I was going to leave it at my last post unless you talked about my specific examples of why it wouldn't work, but I have to reply to this. Not once did I say the media is good or protecting us from Trump or whatever other words you're putting into my mouth. I said your suggested 'fixes' are bad, unworkable, and would exacerbate the problem, not fix it. Here's a thought: government censorship is almost always bad; telling people they can't talk about current events because there are too many of them working in the studio/newsroom is the kind of thing I expect from the people this thread was made to observe and mock. ErIog posted:Your ideas are bad. These aren't new problems, and they don't require your draconian half-baked solutions. We could: 1) Move to public financing of elections, abolish campaign contributions, regulate political advertising on behalf of specific candidates during elections 2) Repeal the media ownership rules changes from the past 30 years that have allowed radio, newspapers, and TV to conglomerate 3) Implement net neutrality to ensure telecoms can't run protection rackets on their customers (or better yet, nationalize the telecoms to ensure access) This tries to deal with the root of the problem in a constructive and progressive way. Would it work? I don't know, probably. But it would address a lot of the problems with the polarization happening right now which you are trying to paper over by revoking the first amendment.
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Aug 16, 2018 03:45
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All of those suggestions are government censorship, what does "government censorship" mean to you? Again, I live somewhere that has election time broacasting rules and strict campaign spending limits, it doesn't do jack poo poo to fix the problem of the press or the rule of money in politics and it definitely does not prevent political extremism. People can and should talk about current events all they want, what they should not be allowed to do is spend as much money as they can to dominate the conversation by virtue of that money buying them the biggest broadcasting platform. Corporations are not people and you should not extend them personal rights. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Aug 16, 2018 |
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Aug 16, 2018 03:47
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