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Alright, well I'm clearly not convincing anyone of anything here, or even understanding what you guys are saying, appare Do any of you malcontents have ideas about how to fix all these problems? How do you suggest we get ourselves out of this mess?
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Aug 18, 2018 03:45
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You can promise to join whenever and never do so christ
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Aug 18, 2018 03:47
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twoday posted:Alright, well I'm clearly not convincing anyone of anything here, or even understanding what you guys are saying, appare Accept the wisdom of Tony Benn into your heart
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Aug 18, 2018 06:55
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guillotines, lots of them
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Aug 18, 2018 08:14
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twoday posted:Alright, well I'm clearly not convincing anyone of anything here, or even understanding what you guys are saying, appare Serious aswer: we dont, not really. The d&d thread has some people more in the know about the inner workings of the eu bureoucracy, i think plusket or dawncloack work in brussels even.although they have a much rosier view of the eu, they can tell you how incredibly hard it is to move the needle. Very serious answer: we dont get out of this mess, because europe sliding into a pastoral technocratic plutocacry, while the perifery countries turn into nationalist dictatorships that we still do bussiness with IS the end game. when climate change goes into overdrive all the " fortress europe" bullshit is going to look like rainbows and unicorns. This is the most likelly outcome. The serioust answer: we dont. Unless the elites recognise that the single market is a scam used to milk the poorest countries from their resources and workforce, paying cents on the euro for it. That its being used to keep germany and france competitive in the global market by artificially deflating their currency. That the financialization of the economy as been a mistake, and bretton woods has killed more people than any single world war. That we need to kill all ofshores dead, institute fiscal transfer, stop every single corporation from dodging taxes by registering in the netherlands and ireland, that its vital we have a trans national program in the order of the tens of trillions of euros for green energy and infrastructure to fight climate change aplied through decades, that its vital to have a citizens and workers bill of rights and recognise that the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles. We wont do even one of those things. But thats ok.When our time comes, we wont make excuses for the terror. Antifa Poltergeist has issued a correction as of 10:30 on Aug 18, 2018 |
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Aug 18, 2018 10:13
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CountFosco posted:The impoverishment of Portugal is a small price to pay for the guarantee of the end of war in Europe. Persevere, brave Portuguese; know that through your suffering, a future of German tanks rolling into France is averted. Tanks with broomsticks.
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Aug 18, 2018 10:20
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twoday posted:Alright, well I'm clearly not convincing anyone of anything here, or even understanding what you guys are saying, appare You're not convincing anyone of anything because you don't have a position to convince anyone to, beyond a sort of bland "everything is fine, we are living in the best of all possible worlds" liberalism. Unfortunately everything is evidently not fine, countries are going bankrupt, basic infrastructure is collapsing, populations are turning towards radicalism etc. Everything is only fine if you have money, and a significant and increasing fraction of the European population doesn't. The next question is more interesting. The basic thing that needs to happen is for countries to stop obeying the ECB and IMF, leave the euro and go back to their own currencies. If that means leaving the EU then fine - countries like Greece and Italy will still do better isolated but under their own terms than in the EU but on the euro. Once that happens - once the eurozone starts to shrink, and the ECB is faced with mass national defaults, then the conversation might start to change. Promises of a system that doesn't systematically disenfrachise periphery states might be floated. Or they'll just offer more loans on slightly better terms and use mass-media propaganda to keep bilking people (Plucky Portugal comes to mind). But the EU economic and political system needs to be recognized, at base, as corrupt and illegitimate, and countries need to start walking away. Can't the system be reformed from within? In my opinion, no. The EU political structure is very elegantly designed to be insulated from public will. Take a look at this (from Wiki):  There's lot's that can be said about this but the part I want to highlight is how the enfranchised people - the voting citizenry - are always kept multiple layers of institutions away from the ability to propose or change anything. Compare it to a standard parliamentary system that goes "Public elects an MP. MP joins a government". Meanwhile there are lots of places a small but wealthy minority can step in and apply pressure - even on a progressive government such as in Greece or Spain - to get the kind of people and proposals they want. You'll never get an MMT guy or a socialist on the board of the ECB and you'll never get a majority of progressives on the European Council - they system can use monetary pressure to coerce smaller governments to place capital friendly people. If Comrade Corbyn took power in Britain tomorrow and selected the vengeful spirit of Tony Benn as our representative on the EC they'd just tighten the screws a little more to get pliant people from the REBLLs etc. Any kind of reform would have to be backed by overwhelming, europe-wide public pressure. So what's the prognosis there? Well as Coohoolin and Grape have gleefully pointed out, not great! A lot of people know they are angry, frustrated, desperate, but a lot don't know where to accurately place the blame. Grape's suggested culprits were the EU, Germany, Brexit and My Posting. Authoritarian fascist parties are gaining strength and political power faster than us lefties, who are kind of languishing in a confused stupor. What could be causing that? How come the fascists always have more money, better media attention, better organisation? Rather that Brexit, or a sort of mass, Europe-wide rebellion against my posts (say what you like about the quality, I just don't think I've got that much of an audience amongst the down-and-out of Athens and Rome), I would propose the reason fascists are taking power is the exact same reason fascists have always taken power; the objectives of authoritarian fascism are much friendlier to capital than the objectives of leftism. Faced with the choice between concentration camps for immigrants and a slight reduction in their wealth, capital will tattoo 1488 across their foreheads and goose-step out into the street every time. The fascists in Europe have better media and political presence, better organisation, better logistics etc because they have more money. But funnily enough, the fascists hate the EU too So, what needs to happen? Countries need to walk away from the euro system in particular and probably the EU structure in general. What's going to happen? White Rock posted:with the rise of far right eu skeptic parties all over the union, the EU is going to die.
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Aug 18, 2018 11:17
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That’s not going to kill the EU, it’s just going to turn the EU fascist
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Aug 18, 2018 11:20
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Andrast posted:That’s not going to kill the EU, it’s just going to turn the EU fascist I concede that is also an option.
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Aug 18, 2018 11:21
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That was a good post,Often Abbreviated, and yeah , how it isnt obvious that we are gonna turn into "border states go fash, murder all immigrants while the north wrings their hands" is blaffing.
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Aug 18, 2018 11:58
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Often Abbreviated posted:Do you think they're thrilled to know they'll never be able to have a reasonable quality of life in their own countries? Do you think it warms their hearts to think of themselves staying in Britain, their children speaking another language and forgetting their culture? Do you think they're pleased that a country that survived being wiped off the map twice in the twentieth century alone will become a holiday playground for wonderful wealthy liberals like you? You know so many. Ask them. Often Abbreviated posted:So you're not going to ask any of them what they think of losing their language, then? They seem pretty happy to you, and it's not a big deal to you, so you can't possible understand how a people who had to smuggle books into their own country in order to keep their language alive might care about that? Lol, what the gently caress is this particular line of argument.
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Aug 18, 2018 13:36
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To recap: Lithuania was wiped off the map twice in the twentieth century alone. You can't walk through Kaunas or Vilnius without encountering memorials to the hundreds of thousands who were variously genocided, shipped to Siberia or disappeared into the woods to fight the Soviets and never came back. If you walk across the road from the parliament building in Vilnius you'll find a wall covered in children's artwork depicting acts of genocide and mass murder, moments of resistance and revolution, the Soviet tanks surrounding the barricades. Their national heroes include people who had books printed in Lithuanian in foreign countries and smuggled into Lithuanian schoolhouses so children could be taught their own language in secret, because if Lithuanian was heard spoken or seen printed openly the speakers would be arrested, deported, killed. Those people, who are so incredibly proud of their tiny, heart-shaped country in the geographical centre of Europe, who survived all of that, are being replaced through the remorseless processes of EU coercion and larceny, so it can be a playground for German tourists and Russian expats. The Lithuanians I know are pretty loving angry about that. Naturally, the only response to this from Coohoolin et al. is "lol racist".
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Aug 18, 2018 14:48
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Newsflash, Lithuanian nationalism helped lead to massive cooperation in the Holocaust compared to other countries. Sorry about kids of emigrants probably not speaking the language I guess. Even though they are perfectly free too and it's their choice.
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Aug 18, 2018 15:23
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khwarezm posted:Newsflash, Lithuanian nationalism helped lead to massive cooperation in the Holocaust compared to other countries. I'm starting to think none of you on the pro-EU side actually have a philosophy, ideology, or belief system at all. I've gone from being called racist against Lithuanians to hearing "Actually, Lithuanian scum deserve to be exterminated" in like two posts. Oh wait I remember what your beliefs are.
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Aug 18, 2018 15:29
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khwarezm posted:Newsflash, Lithuanian nationalism helped lead to massive cooperation in the Holocaust compared to other countries. gently caress you
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Aug 18, 2018 15:40
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Often Abbreviated posted:I'm starting to think none of you on the pro-EU side actually have a philosophy, ideology, or belief system at all. I've gone from being called racist against Lithuanians to hearing "Actually, Lithuanian scum deserve to be exterminated" in like two posts. Lithuanians moving to other countries≠actual genocide because their kids will probably not speak Lithuanian, although nothing really stops them if they are interested, this is the kind of dumb logic that leads us to the way fascists talk about 'white genocide'. Sorry that Nationalism is an intrinsically bullshit concept and that your broken heart for the glorious resistance against the Soviets caused you to glaze over the literal Nazi collaboration part of Lithuanian history. Continue to call me a Liberal if you want, there's tons of actual bad things you can criticize the EU for rather than it undermines the intrinsic sanctity of the nations of Europe by letting people move around easier.
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Aug 18, 2018 16:04
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We must preserve a future of women going babaska after they turn 30! Keep immigrants out!
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Aug 18, 2018 16:07
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khwarezm posted:Continue to call me a Liberal if you want, there's tons of actual bad things you can criticize the EU for rather than it undermines the intrinsic sanctity of the nations of Europe by letting people move around easier. Try reading the thread. Europe does not let people move around easier. Moving around requires money. It coerces young, healthy, smart poor people move to rich states and helps the rich northerners poverty tour in poor ones. Everyone else gets to rot where they are. You're eating the same loving bullshit about "maximum choice in healthcare!" that's used to force Americans to pay $200,000 a year for the privilege of continuing to live. Often Abbreviated has issued a correction as of 16:23 on Aug 18, 2018 |
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Aug 18, 2018 16:19
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So are we gonna ignore the map posted showing that mass emigration is a huge trend in virtually all of Eastern Europe regardless of EU membership or not?
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Aug 18, 2018 16:37
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Grape posted:So are we gonna ignore the map posted showing that mass emigration is a huge trend in virtually all of Eastern Europe regardless of EU membership or not? The map shows all the countries getting systematically hosed by capital are having everyone who can leave, leave. Regardless of the wonderful economic benefits of EU membership. How do you think this is any defence of the EU?
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Aug 18, 2018 16:45
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Often Abbreviated posted:The map shows all the countries getting systematically hosed by capital are having everyone who can leave, leave. Regardless of the wonderful economic benefits of EU membership. How do you think this is any defence of the EU? You seem to enjoy skirting the edges of actual points, collecting those together, but not going any deeper on it. Like are we advancing hyper nationalist arguments or marxist ones? What is your choice here?
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Aug 18, 2018 16:53
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Grape posted:You seem to enjoy skirting the edges of actual points, collecting those together, but not going any deeper on it. On the contrary, I've made several pretty detailed posts in this very thread. If you want a top-line summary: The EU is garbage because it empowers and enriches a tiny financial class at the expense of anyone else. For what I would have replace it, I think there's a world of alternatives; from a more equitable federalist union to independent nation-states loosely associated by common trade ties. Anything is possible once you realise the existing structure is a nightmare machine. I don't have a particular utopia I'm pushing, I have a philosophy. If someone else's utopia matches my philosophy closely enough, I'll sign up.
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Aug 18, 2018 17:02
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khwarezm posted:Newsflash, Lithuanian nationalism helped lead to massive cooperation in the Holocaust compared to other countries. i agree with this liberal, the soviet union should be brought back. eu still sucks rear end though
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Aug 18, 2018 17:11
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Often Abbreviated posted:Try reading the thread. Europe does not let people move around easier. Moving around requires money. It coerces young, healthy, smart poor people move to rich states and helps the rich northerners poverty tour in poor ones. Everyone else gets to rot where they are. You're eating the same loving bullshit about "maximum choice in healthcare!" that's used to force Americans to pay $200,000 a year for the privilege of continuing to live. Moving does require money but comparing it to American healthcare costs is disingenuous as all gently caress, moving does not cost $200k.
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Aug 18, 2018 17:15
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Often Abbreviated posted:I'm starting to think none of you on the pro-EU side actually have a philosophy, ideology, or belief system at all. I've gone from being called racist against Lithuanians to hearing "Actually, Lithuanian scum deserve to be exterminated" in like two posts. Lol gently caress off you tory
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Aug 18, 2018 17:18
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WampaLord posted:Moving does require money but comparing it to American healthcare costs is disingenuous as all gently caress, moving does not cost $200k. You're reading the analogy wrong. The issue is that the "choice" is bullshit. There's only ever one good option, and a huge amount of the population get priced out of it to keep those that can afford to take it in line.
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Aug 18, 2018 17:21
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Often Abbreviated posted:I don't have a particular utopia I'm pushing, I have a philosophy. If someone else's utopia matches my philosophy closely enough, I'll sign up. From what I understand, your philosophy seems to be that prosperity could best be achieved when migration is discouraged, and the EU is dissolved into a collection of unassociated ethnostates. Is that correct?
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Aug 18, 2018 17:23
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twoday posted:From what I understand, your philosophy seems to be that prosperity could best be achieved when migration is discouraged, and the EU is dissolved into a collection of unassociated ethnostates. Is that correct? have you backed off from your assertion that the eu has transformed the baltics into wondrous tech hubs
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Aug 18, 2018 17:27
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Often Abbreviated posted:You're reading the analogy wrong. The issue is that the "choice" is bullshit. There's only ever one good option, and a huge amount of the population get priced out of it to keep those that can afford to take it in line. So you would prefer no one had the option to move at all? Shouldn't the solution be some sort of nationalized (or EU-ized) support system for financial assistance with moving costs? Much like how a NHS is the solution to America's insane healthcare situation as opposed to saying "well healthcare is priced out of the majority of the people, therefore no one should have healthcare!"
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Aug 18, 2018 17:27
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WampaLord posted:So you would prefer no one had the option to move at all? Nah, Often Abbreviated prefers country-wide moves, commonly referred in some circles as Lebensraum.
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Aug 18, 2018 17:30
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twoday posted:From what I understand, your philosophy seems to be that prosperity could best be achieved when migration is discouraged, and the EU is dissolved into a collection of unassociated ethnostates. Is that correct? No, I don't care about migration or ethnostates. I'm against coercion, disenfranchisement and forced austerity (theft, essentially). If some miracle happens and we end up in a world where people can live wherever they want and earn a good living I'd be as happy as anyone. I happen to think that in such a situation much of the diaspora from the periphery states would return home, because I think most people basically want to be close to their family and home culture when raising kids, but if I turned out to be wrong about that it wouldn't bother me. The thing that confuses people is that they see things like the euro, free movement, the political structure of the EU etc. as all separate concepts; in such a framework all we have to do is fix the bad stuff like the euro and we can keep the rest. The thing that I don't think people get is that all that stuff comes together because that's how it was designed. It's a machine built for a purpose. You don't get to pick which bits you want without changing the purpose it was designed to achieve. In the current design of the EU free movement is a foundation policy alongside the Eurozone because the free movement of both labour and capital is required to properly disenfranchise people en mass and prevent organizing. In those parts of the EU that are wealthy there must be a constant reserve army of desperate immigrants to keep wages low. Movement of money without movement of people wouldn't serve the purpose of the machine. That's not to say of course that you couldn't design a better machine that managed to achieve a lot of the same details whilst achieving a different, more equitable purpose. I think that's very possible. But you can't get there from here because the other thing that this machine does very well is prevent anyone who isn't allowed from tinkering with it.
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Aug 18, 2018 17:43
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e; nevermind, reading comprehension
Coohoolin has issued a correction as of 17:54 on Aug 18, 2018 |
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Aug 18, 2018 17:49
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Coohoolin posted:wait I thought you were complaining about poor workers from periphery countries being forced to move to wealthier countries for work That's literally in the post you're quoting, Coohoolin. It's right there.
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Aug 18, 2018 17:51
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Often Abbreviated posted:To recap: Lithuania was wiped off the map twice in the twentieth century alone. You can't walk through Kaunas or Vilnius without encountering memorials to the hundreds of thousands who were variously genocided, shipped to Siberia or disappeared into the woods to fight the Soviets and never came back. If you walk across the road from the parliament building in Vilnius you'll find a wall covered in children's artwork depicting acts of genocide and mass murder, moments of resistance and revolution, the Soviet tanks surrounding the barricades. Their national heroes include people who had books printed in Lithuanian in foreign countries and smuggled into Lithuanian schoolhouses so children could be taught their own language in secret, because if Lithuanian was heard spoken or seen printed openly the speakers would be arrested, deported, killed. jesus loving christ as a lithuanian, posting from lithuania: shut the gently caress up and never speak in the name of my country again
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Aug 18, 2018 18:16
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Lmao I love insane euro nationalism
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Aug 18, 2018 18:16
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Somaen posted:jesus loving christ It's a dead giveaway when someone got a Trump supporter AV.
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Aug 18, 2018 18:19
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twoday posted:I only said that about Estonia, and this is one of their government's goals/policies. Like it or not, they're going all in on building an economy centered around the blockchain and programming apps, and trying to become "the Silicon Valley of Europe." I'm not saying that I agree with it, but it's definitely a thing they are doing. blockchain
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Aug 18, 2018 18:20
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etalian posted:It's a dead giveaway when someone got a Trump supporter AV. i thogut that's the new "stupid newbie" av
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Aug 18, 2018 18:23
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Somaen posted:i thogut that's the new "stupid newbie" av it is on the other hand often abbreviated is a brit who is desperate for our country to get even more in bed with the US and get all our food from there along with destroying all the good standards we have =as part of the EU in order to get that free trade agtreement
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Aug 18, 2018 18:44
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