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I doubt you'd have troops or generals outright disobeying orders to attack their former allies, but the prospect of years worth of more fighting right when the end seemed so near would have universally sunk morale to rock-bottom.
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Aug 18, 2018 05:21
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I doubt you'd have troops or generals outright disobeying orders to attack their former allies, but the prospect of years worth of more fighting right when the end seemed so near would have universally sunk morale to rock-bottom. This really depends on how exactly the fighting would have broken out. Soviet morale would be pretty down if Stalin decided to just start another war instantly, yeah. But if the Allies did so? The little frontovik on the ground would be loving infuriated at such a betrayal, and more than willing to fight to the knife. (And GIs would probably get downright mutinous if you told them in 1945 that their retirement from service is postponed because Washington wants them to march on Moscow instead.) Magni fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Aug 18, 2018 |
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Aug 18, 2018 06:19
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My new favorite alt-history is that the USSR and the US/UK attacked each other and all sides mutinied. I feel like we'd be in a much better place now.
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Aug 18, 2018 06:23
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Flavius Aetass posted:My new favorite alt-history is that the USSR and the US/UK attacked each other and all sides mutinied. I feel like we'd be in a much better place now. Do it in the CHristmas Truce of 1914 instead for maximum warm fuzzies. Also if you have not read or heard of that correct and remedy your unawareness.
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Aug 18, 2018 06:45
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Saint Celestine posted:Aw, I saw the number of replies and thought there was another big fleet action, instead I got logistics chat. It's infrastructure week.
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Aug 18, 2018 06:51
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Magni posted:This really depends on how exactly the fighting would have broken out. Soviet morale would be pretty down if Stalin decided to just start another war instantly, yeah. But if the Allies did so? The little frontovik on the ground would be loving infuriated at such a betrayal, and more than willing to fight to the knife. (And GIs would probably get downright mutinous if you told them in 1945 that their retirement from service is postponed because Washington wants them to march on Moscow instead.) I don't know. From what I've read the average Soviet soldier had either witnessed or heard of so many German Atrocities by 45 that it really was a personal kind of war that was specifically anti-Germany. The 'common soldier' viewed the western forces at fellow travelers on the path to Nazi destruction and pretty much anywhere the two forces met up there was lots of partying and camaraderie. I think that without a lot of prep pushing further into western Europe would have been very unpopular in 45 even if there were propaganda that the west started it. As for Russia 'pretty much destroyed the Wehrmacht single-handedly' even aside from lend lease I think that line of thinking just doesn't give the west enough credit for the number of armies and material and support tied up in the battle of Britain, farting around with operation Sealion, wandering the deserts of North Africa and all the resources thrown into the Battle of the Atlantic. The amount of logistical resources needed to support the German & Italian armies in the field on the other side of the Med was massive even though it was not that far away. Armies on the other sides of bodies of water are hard. If Germany had not been fighting a 2 front war in 40,41 and 42 those critical years would have been a lot harder on the Russians.
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Aug 18, 2018 14:40
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Adolf Hitler, the USSR's greatest general
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Aug 18, 2018 15:00
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it sounds like people are pretty much corroborating my suspicion that the soviets had morale concerns too. sometimes i've felt like there's been an unspoken implication that the red army would have done anything while good ol gi joe just wanted to go home and edit: as for the brits, i get the impression their attitude in 1945 was 'ok fine we just fought this loving war for you, now start building us the welfare state you promised*'. the country hadn't had an election since the morale of those poor guys who had to go kill malaysians for the glory of the empire right after the war must've been through the floor. i've heard that those very early british efforts presaged the 20+ year indochinese quagmire that france and the us got to experience a little further north a little later on. maybe they were even involved in indonesia? i can't remember *and by the way, full credit to the brits for doing what everybody who ever fights ANY war should do, but for some reason asking for something in return seems to fall through the cracks in most times and places. in high school american history we were kept completely 100% ignorant of the british welfare state and we were told how great the GI bill was for, like, offering scholarships (and other nice poo poo, but it wasn't the NHS). it seems a bit hypocritical when i i suppose the key difference is that the united kingdom was deeply, lastingly scarred by the war, going heavily into debt and inflicting a lot of pain on themselves to keep the war going, and america was really not. was there a similar expansion of the postwar welfare state in australia, canada, etc, places that didn't get hit quite as hard by the war, and didn't demand as much sacrifice from the citizenry due to it (i guess), as the uk itself? i guess another factor is that the uk was run by the conservatives in the '30s - maybe some of the post-1945 welfare state expansion was sort of a delayed new deal? i really don't know what kind of policies the conservatives pursued during the great depression, though. this seems like a complicated topic, i hope somebody comes along to educate me on it also i've read the british rationed some things, steak or something, until like 1956 - how much of that was because of a genuine shortage even a decade after the war, and how much of it was a sort of social leveling scheme? my wikipedia skimming kinda suggested both oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Aug 18, 2018 |
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Aug 18, 2018 15:30
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   I'm actually a little disappointed by this...  That makes up for it.  This makes me so angry. These cooks are amazing.   I forgot to switch these guys.   We trade a plane for a hit.   I hate the ground combat system so much right now.  At least naval combat still works.
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Aug 18, 2018 19:59
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  Forgot again....  I got worried when I saw that many thunderbolts, but this is a good showing.  As you can see, we're all Tojo C's now, and it's making a difference.  Until they run out of ammo of course. There are to many allied fighters!  They reload and gun down some liberators in the afternoon.  After a brutal day over Rabul, we came out on top – just! 
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Aug 18, 2018 19:59
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It's pretty amazing that the Tojos can hang with the Thunderbolts like that. Are the pilots at Rabaul experienced or is the plane itself just that good?
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Aug 18, 2018 20:05
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RZApublican posted:It's pretty amazing that the Tojos can hang with the Thunderbolts like that. Are the pilots at Rabaul experienced or is the plane itself just that good? Gotta be the pilots. The Tojo isn't a bad plane for something that started production in 1940, but it doesn't really compare to the Thud. The P-47 has ~100 km/h higher top speed, a higher service ceiling, higher power/weight ratio, a good deal more armor and double the firepower. (Ki-44-IIc carries 4*.50cal machineguns to the P-47s 8*.50cal; though two of the Tojo's guns are in the prop cowl instead of wing-mounted.) The only advantages of the Tojo are IIRC a higher rate of climb and better turning radius. If you want to keep up with the likes of P-47, you'd normally want Georges or Franks to have at least something approaching parity.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:44
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It’s got to just be those tanks keeping Manus alive?
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Aug 19, 2018 01:32
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Note to self: Stop making jokes around nerds You can make jokes around nerds, just this time the goon hivemind went "pedantry" instead of "punditry" or "pun  "
CannonFodder fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Aug 19, 2018 |
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Aug 19, 2018 05:57
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RZApublican posted:It's pretty amazing that the Tojos can hang with the Thunderbolts like that. Are the pilots at Rabaul experienced or is the plane itself just that good? They seem to have a big numbers advantage too.
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Aug 19, 2018 11:21
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To many Tojos not enough Tojokes
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Aug 19, 2018 14:49
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Kibayasu posted:It’s got to just be those tanks keeping Manus alive? almost definitely
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Aug 19, 2018 14:53
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Kibayasu posted:It’s got to just be those tanks keeping Manus alive? Yeah. Part of what makes the land combat in this game frustrating is that AV often doesn't do a very good job showing how strong a unit is. One aspect of this is that vehicles/tanks contribute way less to the stated AV number than you'd expect, or possibly aren't even taken into account at all.
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Aug 19, 2018 15:07
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Kibayasu posted:It’s got to just be those tanks keeping Manus alive? Yeah, those cooks are now pretty good at using Shermans, which is gonna make them way harder to shift.
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Aug 19, 2018 15:26
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OK, as far as I can see we know of two allied units on Manus. The 612th Coast AA Rgt and the 227th USN Base Force. Total numbers in the combat reports are ~9500 troops, ~100 guns, 420 vehicles and a glorious total of 7AV. The TOE, including device upgrades, of the two known units are: 612th - 1500 troops, 96 guns, 39 vehicles 12 x .50 Quad AAMG 32 x 40mm M1 Bofors 16 x 90mm M2 Dual Purpose Gun 2 x Observor 48 x Motorized Support 227th - 3000 troops, 14 guns, 104 vehicles 10 x USMC Rifle Squad - 1AV each, so with some disabled/destroyed these account for all the raw AV in the combat reports. 4 x .50 M2HB AAMG 4 x 40mm M1 Bofors 4 x 90mm M2 Dual Purpose Gun 2 x 155mm M1A1 GPF 2 x CPS-1 Radar 4 x Engineer vehicle 8 x Engineers 100 x Motorized support 36xAviation support So what's missing here is 5000 troops and 300 vehicles. That probably means there's a land HQ unit there as well, with a lot of motorized support, but ptobably no tanks, as tanks are worth one AV each and there's no raw AV unacounted for in the combat reports. The real killer in those TOEs are the guns. The quad.50s in the AA Rgt for instance has an anti-soft rating of 100, as compared to a USMC Rifle squad 44 at 43 anti-soft and an IJA squad at 20-22 depending on year. Support squads and motorized support have an anti-soft-rating of 5. So those 12 AAMGs alone count for as much firepower as ~50 IJA squads. Then add in all the other guns, 40mm Bofors are also quite fearsome, and then add the terrain and fort bonuses. And then, the ground combat resolution sequence is this: 1. Attacker fires bombardment 2. Defender fires (will bombard only if attacker is only bombarding) 3. If attacker is set to Bombard only, combat ends, otherwise this sequence continues. 4. Attacker fires 5. Assault phase The assault phase consists of the following steps: 1. Assault values for surviving forces are determined, as well as the minimum odds for a successful assault. Defending support type squads are counted as having an assault value of 1/10 for odds calculations. 2. Combat Engineers reduce the value of the defender’s fortifications 3. Assault is resolved and the base holds or is captured So the defenders devices get to fire first, thereby reducing the effective fire from the attacker. All in all, the raw firepower of those units is quite insane beacuse of the devices in them, especially the AA rgt. Oh, and the 90mm DP guns and the 155mm GPF are also counted as "naval gun" so they get to shoot at landing ships at full effectiveness as we've seen. That's a CD battery of 22 guns.
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Aug 19, 2018 16:03
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Caconym posted:OK, as far as I can see we know of two allied units on Manus. 
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Aug 19, 2018 16:48
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Grey Hunter posted:
Hey, it's basically the most effective Mikuma's AA battery will ever be.  17 August 1944 It's a rough day for Italian ships hijacked into German service, with the torpedo boat TA-35 (ex-Giuseppe Dezza) mined near Pola, the corvette Uj-6082 (ex-Antilope) sunk by USS Endicott and British gunboats Aphis and Scarab east of Marseilles (along with a Turkish yacht, Kemid Allah, that had been pressed into service as a subhunter), and the corvette Uj-2223 (ex-Marangone) sunk by US aircraft at Genoa. 18 August 1944 Sometimes historical subs seem to follow the pattern of bursts of activity amid the quiet that we've see in WitP. Today, it's action time in the Philippines as USS Rasher sinks the escort carrier Taiyo and USS Hardhead sinks the light cruiser Natori. If I say "Kriegsmarine" and "mines," at this point you'd expect another laundry list of minesweepers getting sunk, but not this time. This time, three German torpedo boats (T-22, T-30, and T-32) run into their own minefield in the Gulf of Narva while supporting the army. All three are lost with heavy casualties.
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Aug 19, 2018 17:06
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:hell different railroads in the same geography used different gauges (hello, CSA). i think it's more of an accident than a deliberate strategy.
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Aug 19, 2018 17:34
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   Down come some of their planes.  A hit is a hit I guess..  Here is a quick report from the ground.  Oh yeah, that's the stuff.  A dull day, but we did well in the air, bagging some recon planes as well.
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Aug 19, 2018 19:12
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God that 13k assault value for the Chinese troops holed up in Chungking...
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Aug 19, 2018 19:13
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Drone posted:God that 13k assault value for the Chinese troops holed up in Chungking... Yeah, I'm not sure it's doable...
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Aug 19, 2018 19:28
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Not with that attitude!
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Aug 19, 2018 20:42
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Grey Hunter posted:Yeah, I'm not sure it's doable...
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Aug 19, 2018 20:46
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Woodchip posted:Not with that This would be the report received by the IJN, I think, who would demand the IJA bombers go even higher just to gently caress with them.
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Aug 19, 2018 20:48
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Give them an escape route to move into and see if they leave so you can do it piecemeal.
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Aug 19, 2018 20:54
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Giving them a path to retreat might no be a bad idea. You might be able to knock enough units out of the hex to take it.
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Aug 19, 2018 21:16
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If you're not averse to gaming the AI, one option is to simply march a significant chunk of your AV (roughly half) out of the hex. The AI will think it has the advantage and attack into your remaining troops. However, because you're benefiting from those sweet defender bonuses now, you should hold no problem and inflict a lot of casualties. Do this a few times, and you might trim down the garrison enough to be able to win.
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Aug 19, 2018 23:39
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Slippery42 posted:If you're not averse to gaming the AI, one option is to simply march a significant chunk of your AV (roughly half) out of the hex. The AI will think it has the advantage and attack into your remaining troops. However, because you're benefiting from those sweet defender bonuses now, you should hold no problem and inflict a lot of casualties. Do this a few times, and you might trim down the garrison enough to be able to win. DOOO IITTT Also do that at Manus, drop troops on the other side of the island and fight the tank mechanics there.
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Aug 20, 2018 02:14
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As long as we don't have to shock attack entering the city again from across a river or whatever happened when we arrived.
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Aug 20, 2018 04:21
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CannonFodder posted:Do it. Unfortunately Hqs and and Artillery units litteraly cannot be ordered to perform a land attack in this game, only units with an AV > 0 can. So that murderous AA Rgt will never attack, only bombard and defend.
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Aug 20, 2018 15:07
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  This is much more the kind of strike I want to do!  I'm starting to fear these things.  Down come two more Liberators.  That's two days in a row we've killed more than we've lost!
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Aug 21, 2018 04:12
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Liberators being killed by Japanese flak will never stop being funny.
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Aug 21, 2018 04:17
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 I will fix the sound at some point!
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Aug 21, 2018 08:06
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The autovictory points gap is now up to 8000 points... does that mean no autovictory until 1946? Or until enough atolls get nuked?
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Aug 21, 2018 15:54
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  I'm not giving in here!  We murder the Liberators today!  If I was being charitable, I'd say the AI was planning on using Rota as a staging area. As I know the AI, it sent this tanker here as a laugh.  They do have flattops here though!  We've had theatre wide air superiority for three whole days now! 
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Aug 21, 2018 18:31
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