|
I'm left wing, I'm left wing I continue to insist as o support the Tory government and support the trump administration
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 22:23 |
|
|
Often Abbreviated posted:You're not convincing anyone of anything because you don't have a position to convince anyone to, beyond a sort of bland "everything is fine, we are living in the best of all possible worlds" liberalism. Unfortunately everything is evidently not fine, countries are going bankrupt, basic infrastructure is collapsing, populations are turning towards radicalism etc. Everything is only fine if you have money, and a significant and increasing fraction of the European population doesn't. That's a lot of words to say "The EU isn't democratic, capital will always side with fascism, therefore the EU should be destroyed". Which is to say 69 + 420 = 1488. How the gently caress do you get to "shut down the EU" from "fascism is friendly to capitalism"? If we actually follow your reasoning, ignoring that last bizarre step, what we're going to get is multiple fascist sovereign states instead of one big one? That might be better overall for the rest of the world but for someone living inside Europe I don't look forward to the forever wars and general atmosphere.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
Capitalism is bad, let's destroy the only international framework we have to curtail border hopping corporatism.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:49
|
|
|
AlexanderCA posted:loving right it should. Where does this insane notion come from that people can't leave because their family might not like it? That's some mafia poo poo. Yeah I'll keep my mafia poo poo, thanks. Feel free to gently caress off wherever you can enjoy a life free from support networks hackbunny has issued a correction as of 18:54 on Aug 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:50
|
|
|
Companies being able to store and sell all sorts of information about you because you use their products is cool and good and definitely something a left wing person supports
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:50
|
|
|
hackbunny posted:Yeah I'll keep my mafia poo poo, thanks There's nowhere on earth that legally functions like that, so what the hell are you going on about.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:53
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:That's a lot of words to say "The EU isn't democratic, capital will always side with fascism, therefore the EU should be destroyed". Which is to say 69 + 420 = 1488. How the gently caress do you get to "shut down the EU" from "fascism is friendly to capitalism"? If we actually follow your reasoning, ignoring that last bizarre step, what we're going to get is multiple fascist sovereign states instead of one big one? That might be better overall for the rest of the world but for someone living inside Europe I don't look forward to the forever wars and general atmosphere. The connection you're missing is all the previous stuff that's been posted I dunno, a dozen times by different posters already? About how the euro system is designed to systematically bankrupt the periphery to enrich a tiny financial class in the middle. Which creates lots of desperate, despairing people whose complaints are ignored by the authorities, which leads to radicalism. As leftwing radicalism is effectively controlled and suppressed, fascism is the outcome. It goes Poverty -> Disenfranchisement -> Radicalism -> Fascism. And no I don't honestly know whether we're going to gets lots of small fascists states or one big one and I'm not looking forward to it either, but since the EU is the engine producing all the misery to begin with I think it's fair to say it should be destroyed. Clearer?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:53
|
|
|
Grape posted:There's nowhere on earth that legally functions like that, so what the hell are you going on about. I have no idea what the gently caress you're talking about
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
the noble semi-pagan balts are a proud people, they must be kept inside the borders of their beautiful country where, away from the cutthroat world of capital, they can roam free
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:56
|
|
|
Except unironically, and replace "balts" with "Italians". And make the border two-way
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 18:57
|
|
|
isn't that what your new government is doing?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 19:03
|
|
|
Jose posted:it is on the other hand often abbreviated is a brit who is desperate for our country to get even more in bed with the US and get all our food from there along with destroying all the good standards we have =as part of the EU in order to get that free trade agtreement In case anyone is actually taken in by any of this stuff, Jose has trouble understanding any post more than about a line in length, so his mind just fills in the extra space with flotsam from his imagination. It's kind of like how people with optical nerve damage still think that the see the world fine until they walk into something because the brain just fills in the gaps.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 19:06
|
|
|
Often Abbreviated posted:The connection you're missing is all the previous stuff that's been posted I dunno, a dozen times by different posters already? About how the euro system is designed to systematically bankrupt the periphery to enrich a tiny financial class in the middle. Which creates lots of desperate, despairing people whose complaints are ignored by the authorities, which leads to radicalism. As leftwing radicalism is effectively controlled and suppressed, fascism is the outcome. It goes Poverty -> Disenfranchisement -> Radicalism -> Fascism. Yes, actually. Reminds me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucriJDhgRmA
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 19:13
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:So you would prefer no one had the option to move at all?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 19:33
|
|
|
Often Abbreviated posted:To recap: Lithuania was wiped off the map twice in the twentieth century alone. You can't walk through Kaunas or Vilnius without encountering memorials to the hundreds of thousands who were variously genocided, shipped to Siberia or disappeared into the woods to fight the Soviets and never came back. If you walk across the road from the parliament building in Vilnius you'll find a wall covered in children's artwork depicting acts of genocide and mass murder, moments of resistance and revolution, the Soviet tanks surrounding the barricades. Their national heroes include people who had books printed in Lithuanian in foreign countries and smuggled into Lithuanian schoolhouses so children could be taught their own language in secret, because if Lithuanian was heard spoken or seen printed openly the speakers would be arrested, deported, killed. Isn't your reaction to ship them back to Lithuania after they've made a life elsewhere?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 19:41
|
|
|
hackbunny posted:I have no idea what the gently caress you're talking about You seem to be espousing that individuals should be forbidden to leave close knit families at their own will. And that you would like to keep that non-existent system!
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 19:46
|
|
|
Dirk Pitt posted:Isn't your reaction to ship them back to Lithuania after they've made a life elsewhere? No, my reaction is that they should have the option of choosing where they want to live without the economic coercion of their own state being undermined. Actual choice, not the fake choice of "move to a rich country or starve". So that you might find people from the periphery moving to other countries in the periphery, perhaps to learn the language or experience the culture. I don't begrudge the people who've moved to the rich countries to find work at all, nor do I want rid of them. If the borders come down again I certainly don't want anyone getting shipped anywhere. But if we're going to have free movement, I want the choice to be real for everyone, not just the rich.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 19:49
|
|
|
Often Abbreviated posted:No, my reaction is that they should have the option of choosing where they want to live without the economic coercion of their own state being undermined. Actual choice, not the fake choice of "move to a rich country or starve". So that you might find people from the periphery moving to other countries in the periphery, perhaps to learn the language or experience the culture. I don't begrudge the people who've moved to the rich countries to find work at all, nor do I want rid of them. If the borders come down again I certainly don't want anyone getting shipped anywhere. But if we're going to have free movement, I want the choice to be real for everyone, not just the rich. So... magic choice solution that will, in practice, ship them all back home.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 19:55
|
|
|
Coohoolin posted:So... magic choice solution that will, in practice, ship them all back home. If that's what they want to do. What do you want to do, force them to stay?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 19:56
|
|
|
the solution is to destroy the british economy with brexit to make capital flee to the EU and for labour make eastern europe attractive by comparison. i like that
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 20:05
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:That, and making movement the other way a viable option too. Otherwise you're only changing a very small part of the economic coercion; merely expanding how many people can choose between a few limited paths. Like, the system should move towards one where the economic argument for moving to any given country should be irrelevant - people would just choose to go based on personal reasons, rather than systemic ones . Like, fair enough, if you want to be a vintner you probably have to move somewhere they actually make wine, but wanting to make a decent living should be an option anywhere. Often Abbreviated posted:No, my reaction is that they should have the option of choosing where they want to live without the economic coercion of their own state being undermined. Actual choice, not the fake choice of "move to a rich country or starve". So that you might find people from the periphery moving to other countries in the periphery, perhaps to learn the language or experience the culture. I don't begrudge the people who've moved to the rich countries to find work at all, nor do I want rid of them. If the borders come down again I certainly don't want anyone getting shipped anywhere. But if we're going to have free movement, I want the choice to be real for everyone, not just the rich. On this point I agree with both of you. But where I disagree with Often Abbreviated is that I believe that EU, despite its problems, is enabling this to some degree. I look at the economies of Eastern European countries which have joined the EU relatively recently such as Poland, Romania, etc., and think that they have been improving drastically as a result of joining the EU, leveling out the playing field for their inhabitants to some extent, and allowing for this model of movement to slowly overcome the economically motivated one. The map I posted earlier that showed the non-EU Balkan countries shows that those countries have double the rates of economic migrants, while their economies have not had the same benefits as those that joined the EU. And yes, I am aware this is not applicable to the Mediterranean countries which have been made to suffer through austerity, but I think there are two different mechanisms at play regarding the economies of the Mediterranean austerity countries and the eastern European ones, and the main difference is the imposition of austerity (to which I am opposed). Edit: Balkan, not Baltic twoday has issued a correction as of 20:26 on Aug 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 20:15
|
|
|
I find the Visegrad Group to be an interesting phenomenon within the EU in recent years. Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, and Slovakia created the V4 as an initiative to work more closely on matters of defense, economics, etc. The countries share some cultural heritage and currently have governments with similar political beliefs in power (which I am not a fan of). Functioning as a cohesive clique within the EU they have a lot more influence and are more capable of achieving common goals than they would have as isolated countries. It echoes the strategy of the Benelux taken long ago. I think such groupings are a good way to decentralize power within the EU, and counterbalance excessive German influence, while also allowing for a greater degree of sovereignty than say the hypothetical reestablishment of the Austro-Hungarian Empire as an EU member state. It is probably a better way for these countries to achieve their goals than in a totally federal europe or an "every man for himself" Europe. Not sure to what degree this can be or already is implemented in other parts of Europe, though I believe the Scandanavians are doing something similar to a lesser degree.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 20:47
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/1030417408371122177?s=20
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2018 20:54
|
|
|
Somaen posted:isn't that what your new government is doing? gently caress if I know what they're doing Grape posted:You seem to be espousing that individuals should be forbidden to leave close knit families at their own will. And that you would like to keep that non-existent system! Law isn't the only form of coercion, you dense dullard. And you can be against one thing without being for its exact, literal, completely imaginary opposite
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 00:23
|
|
|
twoday posted:I find the Visegrad Group to be an interesting phenomenon within the EU in recent years. Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, and Slovakia created the V4 as an initiative to work more closely on matters of defense, economics, etc. The countries share some cultural heritage and currently have governments with similar political beliefs in power (which I am not a fan of). Functioning as a cohesive clique within the EU they have a lot more influence and are more capable of achieving common goals than they would have as isolated countries. It echoes the strategy of the Benelux taken long ago. I think such groupings are a good way to decentralize power within the EU, and counterbalance excessive German influence, while also allowing for a greater degree of sovereignty than say the hypothetical reestablishment of the Austro-Hungarian Empire as an EU member state. It is probably a better way for these countries to achieve their goals than in a totally federal europe or an "every man for himself" Europe. Not sure to what degree this can be or already is implemented in other parts of Europe, though I believe the Scandanavians are doing something similar to a lesser degree.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 00:36
|
|
|
berlin is actively trying to wreck rome right now how would that work
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 00:58
|
|
|
Rome has been in a dilapidated and ruinous state for 1500 years, they wouldn’t have to do much.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 01:16
|
|
|
get that OUT of my face posted:this is just a system of alliances that europe has done for centuries, albeit under the framework of a continent-wide bureaucracy. between the Visegrad Group consisting of democratic governments that are either dying or dead and an Austrian government minister calling for a "Rome-Berlin-Vienna axis," this will probably not end well Well that’s the thing, people bitch about Germany having too much power within the EU and say that the EU is the 4th Reich. But if the EU was dissolved tomorrow, do you you think that the countries that want to form an axis of nations would stop doing so? No, they would continue, but they would be even more unincumbered and free to go full Fash without the EU in place, and have fewer restrictions upon them to do so. The whole premise of the EU is to put a set of limitations and controls upon European countries to avoid the sorts of situations that led up to the world wars by avoiding isolationism and encouraging interdependency. You can’t stop European countries from wanting to be fascist and evil, but you can put a system in place that makes this difficult to get away with, and that is one of the main purposes of the EU. Even if the V4 becomes a fascist powerhouse within Europe, it would still be limited by its interconnectivity with other non-fascist EU countries. As Often Abbreviated said, there is the possibility that the entire EU will go fascist, but we’re not there yet. And I would argue that this scenario would potentially happen sooner without the overarching structure of the EU in place. Then you could really have the potential for something like a reunified and fully fascist Austro-Hungarian empire that isn’t beholden to the rules of anyone else, and lets itself become totally totalitarian and evil. Instead, what we have now is just the V4 as lobbying group of restrained powers. twoday has issued a correction as of 01:34 on Aug 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 01:22
|
|
|
twoday posted:Well that’s the thing, people bitch about Germany having too much power within the EU and say that the EU is the 4th Reich. But if the EU was dissolved tomorrow, do you you think that the countries that want to form an axis of nations would stop doing so? No, they would continue, but they would be even more unincumbered and free to go full Fash without the EU in place, and have fewer restrictions upon them to do so. The whole premise of the EU is to put a set of limitations and controls upon European countries to avoid the sorts of situations that led up to the world wars by avoiding isolationism and encouraging interdependency. You can’t stop European countries from wanting to be fascist and evil, but you can put a system in place that makes this difficult to get away with, and that is one of the main purposes of the EU. Even if the V4 becomes a fascist powerhouse within Europe, it would still be limited by its interconnectivity with other non-fascist EU countries. As Often Abbreviated said, there is the possibility that the entire EU will go fascist, but we’re not there yet. And I would argue that this scenario would potentially happen sooner without the overarching structure of the EU in place. Then you could really have the potential for something like a reunified and fully fascist Austro-Hungarian empire that isn’t beholden to the rules of anyone else, and lets itself become totally totalitarian and evil. Instead, what we have now is just the V4 as lobbying group of restrained powers. I get what you are saying here, but then i look at austria, hungary, italy and think " yep, job well done" Edit: unless the plan is that no one has money to have a decent military and those who do spend it on the broomtanks.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 01:38
|
|
|
Yeah that's part of it, I think. The fact that every European country has a massively castrated army seems to be intentional. Like I said, it's hard to restrain the nationalist tendencies of European countries, but you can try to limit the potential for them to end up in all out war with one another. In that sense the EU has been working well; since its inception there have been zero wars fought between EU countries, in contrast to pretty much every other peeiod of history.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 01:44
|
|
|
twoday posted:Yeah that's part of it, I think. France has a good military op
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 01:46
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 01:52
|
|
|
Relatively, maybe, but if the EU and NATO didn't exist, the scale of European militaries would be entirely different
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 01:54
|
|
|
Nevertheless projects such as the Polish anime tank continue to de developed https://twitter.com/Bellagiotime/status/1030638285331333122?s=19
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 01:58
|
|
|
twoday posted:Nevertheless projects such as the Polish anime tank continue to de developed It's so dumb I love it
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 01:58
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRzvovQK4EQ
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 02:07
|
|
|
Eurosceptics should try to remember that the primary goal of the EU is to prevent European countries from invading each other (especially to stop Germany from invading France). That may seem like an incredibly low bar for the society of a continent to be built around, and it is. It’s disgusting and tragic that Europeans have the tendency to be so nationalistic and bloodthirsty, but that’s been proven countless times, and the last 2 times that this manifested, almost the entirety of human existence was sucked into devastating warfare and misery. None of the underlying nationalism, greed, rivalry, trauma, animosity, or other forces at play have been resolved since. The EU has been functioning as a shallow stopgap measure to prevent these situations from manifesting again, and to provide a unified front that prevents interference from neighboring powers that could have equally disastrous consequences. Is the EU perfect? No. Is it even good? Not really. But it’s functional in the sense that it is preventing Europe from once again imploding into a violent and horrific nightmare that would entangle every major world power and could easily become a threat to just about all life on earth. That threat is extremely real. Until I hear someone propose a suggestion for a way to reform Europe that also addresses this crucial simmering issue, I guess I find myself on the side of defending the EU’s existence. I also wish that things were managed differently, but I think that the dissolution of the EU would open up a Pandora’s box that would leave you praying for austerity conditions and whatever unsavory limitations you might complain about today. When the ship is barely floating to begin with, I’m not going to go around pulling out the nails that are somehow holding it together. But, if you have a suggestion like that, I’m all ears. Until then, we are all eating out of the same trash can that is the EU. twoday has issued a correction as of 03:36 on Aug 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 02:54
|
|
|
twoday posted:Nevertheless projects such as the Polish anime tank continue to de developed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBSAaMH5hiw
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 03:53
|
|
|
twoday posted:Is the EU perfect? No. Is it even good? Not really. But it’s functional in the sense that it is preventing Europe from once again imploding into a violent and horrific nightmare that would entangle every major world power and could easily become a threat to just about all life on earth. That threat is extremely real. liberalism is a mental illness
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 05:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 22:23 |
|
|
the EU is run by people who exist to serve rentier and financial interests, just like most everywhere else on earth now. the common market has benefited some powerful countries (germany) and other less powerful countries where capital gets to play "lets shift production to places where we can pay people less!" (like romania) and pit labour against each other, while turbofucking so many other countries because they do not control their own currency and can be blackmailed into austerity and IMF style fiscal policy, degrading the quality of lives of millions of people. until the people in charge are forcibly removed, or theres some form of democratization where the interests of labour are given equal power in deciding EU and ECB policy, you're going to get technocrats who cannot be checked by democratic means unlike national governments running roughshod over people. the british are still retards because they had the benefit of being in the EU while being able to control their own currency and fiscal policy and decided to own themselves. mila kunis has issued a correction as of 05:20 on Aug 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2018 05:17
|
|