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you can cry about european unity as much as you want but splintering is loving inevitable because while the citizens of who got rammed up the rear end by austerity have no control over the ECB, they can vote for their own national governments (until getting couped by technocrats becomes the norm) and they will vote to get the gently caress out if they keep getting squeezed year after year.
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Aug 19, 2018 05:26
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mila kunis posted:the british are still retards because they had the benefit of being in the EU while being able to control their own currency and fiscal policy and decided to own themselves.  we’re getting owned a bit by a weak crown at the moment here in Sweden. I’ll take this any day over being on the euro and being forced by the ECB into austerity.
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Aug 19, 2018 06:42
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the eu is obviously a neoliberal undemocratic institution and any actual leftist would obviously want to smash it and rebuild it along socialist and democratic lines
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Aug 19, 2018 06:46
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:the eu is obviously a neoliberal undemocratic institution and any actual leftist would obviously want to smash it and rebuild it along socialist and democratic lines Yeah pretty much. I don't see how anyone can look at the worse than the Great Depression level catastrophe that's been inflicted on Greece and Spain and still think that the EU as it currently exists is worth defending. This isn't to say that the fascists that are currently spreading across Europe like a fungus aren't way worse, but propping up the failure of an institution that ran these countries into a ditch and gave fascism the opportunity to grow in the first place is a pretty terrible idea.
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Aug 19, 2018 07:17
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mila kunis posted:the EU is run by people who exist to serve rentier and financial interests, just like most everywhere else on earth now. the common market has benefited some powerful countries (germany) and other less powerful countries where capital gets to play "lets shift production to places where we can pay people less!" (like romania) and pit labour against each other, while turbofucking so many other countries because they do not control their own currency and can be blackmailed into austerity and IMF style fiscal policy, degrading the quality of lives of millions of people. until the people in charge are forcibly removed, or theres some form of democratization where the interests of labour are given equal power in deciding EU and ECB policy, you're going to get technocrats who cannot be checked by democratic means unlike national governments running roughshod over people. TrilliontonNixon posted:Yeah pretty much. I don't see how anyone can look at the worse than the Great Depression level catastrophe that's been inflicted on Greece and Spain and still think that the EU as it currently exists is worth defending. This isn't to say that the fascists that are currently spreading across Europe like a fungus aren't way worse, but propping up the failure of an institution that ran these countries into a ditch and gave fascism the opportunity to grow in the first place is a pretty terrible idea. yep
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Aug 19, 2018 09:52
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Hmm, those are all good points. I don’t really want to be defending an undemocratic institution, do I? I guess I need to think about this some more.
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Aug 19, 2018 10:53
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twoday posted:Hmm, those are all good points. I don’t really want to be defending an undemocratic institution, do I? I guess I need to think about this some more. im glad i helped you 
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Aug 19, 2018 10:56
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Alright, so if your goal is to smash the EU, how do propose doing that? Not to dwell on it, but I think Britain leaving the EU is going to make the undemocratic technocratic machinery of Brussels run even more efficiently, since the British government was one of the most critical voices in the room. Even if a few other countries were to leave, I don't buy the argument that it would trigger a system-wide collapse. The large remnant chunk of the EU would be weakened slightly by the reduction of predatory capital, and euroscepticism would generally increase, but do you think that would be enough to make the whole thing fall apart? I think it might trigger some reform, but not in the good way. I think if France leaves it might make them think twice about the success of the European project, but short of that the countries of northern Europe would probably just double down on the 4th reich mentality, dig in their heels and spitefully work together against former member states, who would find themselves isolated and outnumbered.
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Aug 19, 2018 11:32
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it's going to brutally collapse during the next recession, dont worry
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Aug 19, 2018 11:34
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god's plan
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Aug 19, 2018 11:53
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:it's going to brutally collapse during the next recession, dont worry exactly. whatever you think about the good things that've happened to occur on the EUs tenure, the fact is that the people responsible for shaping it have produced an entity incapable of looking after anyone's interests, but the rentier classes and their intitutions. and furthermore incapable of reforming itself, as the failure of the Varoufakis' DIEM project showed, in time to be able to react to the looming financial crisis round 2 with anything except a cataclysmic pants-making GBS threads diarrhea shitstorm and ultimately, disintegration. at best into regional interest blocks, at worst who loving knows.
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Aug 19, 2018 12:01
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I still maintain my assertion that the bloodthirsty nations of Europe will begin annexing, Lebensrauming, and subjugating each other as soon as they are given half a chance, as they have always done since time immemorial. I mean, the enforcement of austerity is pretty much just a dynamic way of doing that within the constraints of NATO
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Aug 19, 2018 12:09
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twoday posted:I still maintain my assertion that the bloodthirsty nations of Europe will begin annexing, Lebensrauming, and subjugating each other as soon as they are given half a chance, as they have always done since time immemorial. The EU was never actually meant to do anything about that, though. All that talk about a unified Europe was just smokescreen for the true goal of being able to more easily move around capital and labor. None of the pro-EU, neoliberal parties are willing or able to directly confront the nationalism and racism in these societies, because the capitalistic, hierarchical ideology that they adhere to requires these kinds of oppressive structures to function, and so there was never a move to a true dissolving of borders or national identity. That, combined with the ever more blatant subversion of popular will by elites, the steady erosion of social democratic institutions, and the shuffling around of peoples that had long since learned to think of each other as 'alien' and develop all sorts bigotries to go along with that, meant that if anything the EU was actively bringing out the bloodthirstiness in Europe. IWW Online Branch has issued a correction as of 12:37 on Aug 19, 2018 |
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Aug 19, 2018 12:34
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twoday posted:Hmm, those are all good points. I don’t really want to be defending an undemocratic institution, do I? I guess I need to think about this some more. I guess I have pretty much been saying this:  Hmm... Edit: I retract my previous statements. The EU is bad. twoday has issued a correction as of 14:13 on Aug 19, 2018 |
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Aug 19, 2018 13:09
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how very self-aware of you. it's still going to fall apart tho
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Aug 19, 2018 13:12
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Yeah probablySheng-Ji Yang posted:it's going to brutally collapse during the next recession, dont worry this makes sense
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Aug 19, 2018 13:22
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So a few pages ago i talked about PSD (Centre Right) having a split in leadership over the current leader not opposing hard enough to the current government, even if said government is just sort of telling the rest of the left-wing coalition to buzz off. The guy who left has recently announced what his new party is about ("Reasonable Liberalism, with an emphasis on personal liberties and religions, without excesses! American Education and Health System sounds like a Blast, etc etc") and how he's going to crowdfund his party's support. That means we have our own Jeb Bush now!
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Aug 19, 2018 14:20
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Kunster posted:So a few pages ago i talked about PSD (Centre Right) having a split in leadership over the current leader not opposing hard enough to the current government, even if said government is just sort of telling the rest of the left-wing coalition to buzz off. The guy who left has recently announced what his new party is about ("Reasonable Liberalism, with an emphasis on personal liberties and religions, without excesses! American Education and Health System sounds like a Blast, etc etc") and how he's going to crowdfund his party's support. Its great, im so excited op, Santana Lopes is a legendary sell own guy with way more theatrical ability and sense of entitlement than jeb, its going to own.
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Aug 19, 2018 14:42
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How the gently caress can anyone think the American system is good lol
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Aug 19, 2018 14:48
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Well, it's simple if you think of the White House Presidency and the Country of US as two separate things, one of them being this black box where media comes from I guess. So you don't get any coverage of HealthCare and Drug Policy of the US here unless you have cable and go a few hundred channels until the News ones, which are the US main cable news ones. Or ask an american person. So it's pretty drat easy to sell stuff like Prison Labour, School Vouchers, Shut The gently caress Up Bernie, Maybe We Shouldn't Bomb Syria etc etc if you have successfully shut down any public forum that has at least someone who knows a non-rich US person to inform the realities of stuff like that without getting accusations of being "autistic" and conspiratorial. This leads to the New York Times being seen as this obscure paper bc they had Antonio Costa write a thing about anti-austerity measures and Lula da Silva defending his case there on the exact same tone like if they're trying to tell about this "Dril character" or "SonicFox winning EVO this year" to a confused grandparent. If you ever want to hear US Politics being described like the introduction of a Dingo Pictures cartoon, just watch SIC when they try to cover US politics. (I had Brazilian Politics here for a bit, but I remember they have both an actual brazilian host that explains stuff in the most cold way possible, and a portuguese one) So you get things like our Drug Policy being UNIVERSALLY PRAISED and still getting reports on how that's a good thing while the narrator reads it on the most sarcastic tone possible, camera trained at a heroin addict trying to find a working vein, sharing the same screen with someone saying "We're going to make assisted injection and consumption sites for their safety". Kunster has issued a correction as of 15:34 on Aug 19, 2018 |
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Aug 19, 2018 15:03
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About a year ago I kept running into and arguing with Brexit optimists, and I guess at some point in that process I actually internalized some thoughts in the defense of the EU. But now having heard the arguments and taking a step back out of my bubble to look at the broader picture I have come to the conclusion that A) the EU is causing a lot of harm to its citizens in its current form, and because of its inability to reform itself, it is ultimately a dead end street that will collapse in on itself sooner or later B) reactionary thoughts are mind poison and it is good to be self-critical and look through your own discourse for such thoughts so that you can rid yourself of them Thanks c-spam, I feel better now.
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Aug 19, 2018 18:07
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twoday posted:About a year ago I kept running into and arguing with Brexit optimists, and I guess at some point in that process I actually internalized some thoughts in the defense of the EU. But now having heard the arguments and taking a step back out of my bubble to look at the broader picture I have come to the conclusion that  Also, thread warning, please do not respond to Jose's lovely provocateur act, he's just trying to get you probated/banned. Speaking from experience.
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Aug 20, 2018 02:35
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i'm glad we could help you out, twoday
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Aug 20, 2018 03:04
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Aug 20, 2018 03:09
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twoday posted:About a year ago I kept running into and arguing with Brexit optimists, and I guess at some point in that process I actually internalized some thoughts in the defense of the EU. But now having heard the arguments and taking a step back out of my bubble to look at the broader picture I have come to the conclusion that that's all well and good but brexit is still dogshit
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Aug 20, 2018 11:01
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Coohoolin posted:that's all well and good but brexit is still dogshit and people who unironically think that that the eu can be destroyed and rebuilt shiva like into a socialist federation so far away from reality that they might as well be on dmt
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Aug 20, 2018 11:24
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Coohoolin posted:that's all well and good but brexit is still dogshit Well yes of course but that’s for the other thread  Man, there are a lot of google image search results for EUSSR. https://www.redbubble.com/people/euroswag/works/23503336-eussr-eu-parody?p=tapestry&rel=carousel twoday has issued a correction as of 11:58 on Aug 20, 2018 |
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Aug 20, 2018 11:52
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Whorelord posted:and people who unironically think that that the eu can be destroyed and rebuilt shiva like into a socialist federation so far away from reality that they might as well be on dmt Its not that it's impossible, it's that it requires such a vast internationally co-ordinated and sustained popular movement that if you are trying to build such a thing you could literally replace the EU rather than engage in the horrifying slow and bitter reformation of it.
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Aug 20, 2018 11:55
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I just don't want to die or suffer in a war, thanks
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Aug 20, 2018 18:26
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The success of europe depends on compromise, pick one of those
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Aug 20, 2018 18:28
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Smash the states Hang the last eurocrat with the guts of the last politician
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Aug 20, 2018 18:35
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Kurtofan posted:Smash the states  This is in Brussels. It's from a famous painting of the de Witt brothers. They were two big figures in the Dutch republic, with one as sort of a prime minister and the other the head of the admiralty and Dutch naval power. In 1672, the "Disaster Year" when the Republic was invaded by all the neighboring countries at once and the economy crashed, they were arrested and were waiting for a trial in the Hague, but a mob of angry Orangists showed up and cut out their tongues and ripped off their skin and strung them up in the main square and started eating their organs. I think one of their tongues is still on display in a museum somewhere.
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Aug 20, 2018 19:48
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I think there's a strong possibility that when the next eurocrisis hits France is going to break rank with nonsense German economics to save itself, and the rest will follow France to save themselves and the Euro. Meanwhile German, and probably Finland, will be left behind and maybe even partitioned again and it's eastern half sold back to the Russians, and the European Union will be saved.
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Aug 20, 2018 19:56
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Electronico6 posted:I think there's a strong possibility that when the next eurocrisis hits France is going to break rank with nonsense German economics to save itself, and the rest will follow France to save themselves and the Euro. Meanwhile German, and probably Finland, will be left behind and maybe even partitioned again and it's eastern half sold back to the Russians, and the European Union will be saved.
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Aug 20, 2018 21:59
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France wont do poo poo, unless it helps macron show that hes strong, and powerfull, and wise, and really just the best.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:04
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:France wont do poo poo, unless it helps macron show that hes strong, and powerfull, and wise, and really just the best. See I think Macron is the exact kind of narcissist that is totally going to drop Merkel and all the dumb euro rules the second he needs to nationalise the french banking system and large economy to bail out all his friends, and paint himself the saviour of France and bravely standing against idiot Germans.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:28
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Electronico6 posted:I think there's a strong possibility that when the next eurocrisis hits France is going to break rank with nonsense German economics to save itself, and the rest will follow France to save themselves and the Euro. Meanwhile German, and probably Finland, will be left behind and maybe even partitioned again and it's eastern half sold back to the Russians, and the European Union will be saved. Everyone talking about how the eu is an attempt to stop another pan European war seems to gleefully ignore the last time Europeans did what Germany is doing to Greece and Spain.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:58
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certainly we all remember the tense standing off between the bundeswehr and the armee de terre on the alsace-lorraine border in 1992
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Aug 21, 2018 00:02
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Positioning the EU capital in Brussels is a clever way to ensure that Belgium will be obliterated in world war III as well
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Aug 21, 2018 00:29
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:France wont do poo poo, unless it helps macron show that hes strong, and powerfull, and wise, and really just the best. the next leader of france is going to come from the far right or the left, centrism is going to die in our lifetime unless they just do away with the democratic process and rule by ecb diktat
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Aug 21, 2018 00:55
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