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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Is the non-compete paid? If it's not paid, it's generally not enforceable(I'm not a lawyer, etc), though they could still hassle you about and waste your time and potentially take you to court. They're also not enforceable in California. I'm unemployed and they know it. I'm going to ask them to clarify the sick/personal days policy, and a few other things. My sister in law is a lawyer and called me laughing about the non compete basically saying it's unenforceable.
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Jul 24, 2018 15:48
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So, I'm in a position to do this stuff now for the first time in my life. Getting my first job as a software developer was a nightmare that took a year and a half because the market was absolutely horrible after I finished my masters. The place I'm at gave me a decent starting salary (I did not negotiate), especially for being in the public sector, and they've given me two unprompted raises since in addition to the yearly stipulated one. Almost two years later I wanna move on because, while I'm doing well at my job and it feels good being relied upon I know I'm still fresh to this game, and getting stuck working with legacy technologies and no real mentors to learn from is somewhat demotivating, but mostly I'm worried that it is not doing my CV no favors. Luckily, the market is super hot now, and I got offered a position at the first place I applied to (a small, but reputable consultancy firm). Their initial offer was below what I already make, and I was expecting somewhat of a rise, what with me moving to the private sector and all. In response I kinda broke rule 1 (and probably others) in my first reply (should have read the thread first) by saying that their offer was below what I already earn and that I was expecting to go up 20-25% with the move to the private sector backed up by some statistics I found. I was being somewhat vague, but I gave them a sum and I'm sure they can do basic math and figure out about where I'm at. Luckily, the sum I did give was a sum that was in excess of what I would settle for, although friends in the industry have said I should not sell myself short. I kind of expected them to just walk away from the process, but reading this thread it's clear I should not have. I figured I did not have that much to lose, and there are other places I've been in contact with that are saying to not agree to anything until I've heard back from them. The response I did get is both encouraging and puzzling. Basically they're saying that because of their focus on developing the skills of their consultants, and allowing them free time to hone their skills instead of spending every hour of the week doing billable work, they're not able to pay as much as other places. Their argument is that this makes them a better place to work, and more suited to my needs. I agree with them about this, it is why I went to them first, although similar freedoms and systems are not entirely uncommon elsewhere in the industry. They also say they have a good pension plan etc. Their main argument for the sum in their offer is that they consider me to have a single year of experience, and that it would be hard to sell the non-relevant experience between my studies and my current work to potential customers. In their words it's about how they're going to present me to others, not how much the company itself values my potential. Still, they admit that they might have been a bit harsh in their initial evaluation, and say they could just put me down as having two year of experience with the associated pay increase (in essence, a 5% raise from my current pay) and in their words just "hope that sales won't be an issue". So, their offer is still pretty far from my target, and this is where things get a bit weird. These people are a private company, so even if they do operate with pay brackets in theory based on experience there's bound to be large variability in pay as everyone are free to negotiate it. I'm totally fine with them selling me as having one year of experience, I'll just be paid more from their cut of what I bill. That it is being presented to me as being so black and white, yet clearly the rules can be bent seems dishonest to me. They finish by saying that I could probably get what I'm asking (or more!) somewhere else, but that I'd have to put up with doing what I'm being told to bill. I don't understand what they mean by this. I am a pro and I do the job. I'm guessing they are alluding to there not being as much (or any) time for self-studies or in-house projects and they just wrote it weird. They say they hope their improved offer is good enough. I read that as a hint that any further negotiations are impossible, but my guess from this thread is that it is not. It's hard to know just what to ask for and how hard to press, because the people at the top in this field make money hand over fist, and while you don't have much bargaining power without experience, even a little bit makes you a very valuable commodity. Some of my friends are have less education than me, and maybe an extra year of experience and would not be satisfied with what I'm asking for. So, what next? I don't really want to settle for their second offer, because while it possibly is an improvement in work environment the earning potential of a job change can be very big, and I'd feel like I squandered an opportunity if my salary only went up what it would basically do naturally at my current job. Do I just lower my initial demand a little bit, say, by the same amount that they are reminding me their yearly pension plan is worth? Any good arguments? thotsky fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Aug 20, 2018 |
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Aug 20, 2018 01:44
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Biomute posted:The response I did get is both encouraging and puzzling. Basically they're saying that because of their focus on developing the skills of their consultants, and allowing them free time to hone their skills instead of spending every hour of the week doing billable work, they're not able to pay as much as other places. Their argument is that this makes them a better place to work, and more suited to my needs. I agree with them about this, it is why I went to them first, although similar freedoms and systems are not entirely uncommon elsewhere in the industry. They also say they have a good pension plan etc. gently caress that, every non-bullshit company has a focus on developing dev skills. I can get 8k a person every year for anyone on my team to go to whatever conferences or training they can make a business case for. This is not an argument for accepting a lower salary. quote:They finish by saying that I could probably get what I'm asking (or more!) somewhere else, but that I'd have to put up with doing what I'm being told to bill. I don't understand what they mean by this. I am a pro and I do the job. I'm guessing they are alluding to there not being as much (or any) time for self-studies or in-house projects and they just wrote it weird. They say they hope their improved offer is good enough. I read that as a hint that any further negotiations are impossible, but my guess from this thread is that it is not. It's hard to know just what to ask for and how hard to press, because the people at the top in this field make money hand over fist, and while you don't have much bargaining power without experience, even a little bit makes you a very valuable commodity. Some of my friends are have less education than me, and maybe an extra year of experience and would not be satisfied with what I'm asking for. If this is a business that will be selling you as a consultant, it's time to break out your sales skills. You don't get to the top of that business by being great technically, you get there by being good enough technically and having killer sales and interpersonal skills. Is that the career path you want?
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Aug 20, 2018 01:55
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For a while, sure. Doing a stint in consulting seems like a good way of getting experience with various relatively "hot" technologies, the pay is supposedly good and it seems to attract more motivated and bright people. I am not much of a suit and tie guy, but I am frustrated with the slow pace where I am at, so I will put one on if it means a more stimulating workday. I am sure there are good in-house places out there, but I thought I'd try seeing if the grass is greener on the other side for a bit.
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Aug 20, 2018 02:09
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Biomute posted:The response I did get is both encouraging and puzzling. Basically they're saying that because of their focus on developing the skills of their consultants, and allowing them free time to hone their skills instead of spending every hour of the week doing billable work, they're not able to pay as much as other places. Their argument is that this makes them a better place to work, and more suited to my needs. I agree with them about this, it is why I went to them first, although similar freedoms and systems are not entirely uncommon elsewhere in the industry. They also say they have a good pension plan etc. I just want to chime in and reaffirm that this is extreme bullshit and you should, in a professional manner, call them out on it.
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Aug 20, 2018 03:07
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Eric the Mauve posted:I just want to chime in and reaffirm that this is extreme bullshit and you should, in a professional manner, call them out on it. They could be saying that their billable targets are lower? Though it would be a weird way to do that. You should ask about billable targets, though. Many consulting practices look for something like 1800+ billable hours a year from junior folks. Vacation of course is not billable, and so there's an expectation that you don't take it (unless you're ahead on the billable target) and are working 50+ hours a week to hit the billable goal.
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Aug 20, 2018 10:31
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Biomute posted:So, I'm in a position to do this stuff now for the first time in my life. Getting my first job as a software developer was a nightmare that took a year and a half because the market was absolutely horrible after I finished my masters. The place I'm at gave me a decent starting salary (I did not negotiate), especially for being in the public sector, and they've given me two unprompted raises since in addition to the yearly stipulated one. Almost two years later I wanna move on because, while I'm doing well at my job and it feels good being relied upon I know I'm still fresh to this game, and getting stuck working with legacy technologies and no real mentors to learn from is somewhat demotivating, but mostly I'm worried that it is not doing my CV no favors. Edit: Some companies pay below market and make up for it in other ways. That's perfectly fine as long as they're honest about it. This company is trying to bullshit you and take $20k/year from your potential earnings.
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Aug 20, 2018 11:07
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Dik Hz posted:This company is trying to bullshit you and take $20k/year from your potential earnings. This. Walk away and don’t be afraid to call them out on that bs. In the current job market any IT company should be glad you are considering to start working for them. The fact that they are majorly lowballing you in an insanely difficult market (as well As you moving to private sector) says everything about their business attitude and probably culture as well. You’re out of your mind if you start working for these jackasses. They will most likely try to screw you over at every possible chance to make more money. I had a similar experience once while interviewing with a consultancy company. First round was with one of the owners, he really liked my skills wanted me on board. Second round was with a technical teamlead who’d be my manager. From the first minute he starts downplaying (and even shittalking) everything on my CV saying my skills, experience and certs don’t really mean anything and that they’d have to heavily invest in training me. That’s why they could only pay me 15-20% below my current salary. I told him they asked me to come interview with them and that I was surprised they invited me if they knew that I didn’t match their requirements. I thanked him for his time and left, leaving him quite surprised. The next 3 weeks I recieved multiple calls a day from their CEO almost begging me to join their company. Saying I could get a different teamlead, didn’t have to do the suggested training and could pick any training I’d like. Offered me to pay 20-30% above my (then) pay. Basically anything they previously didn’t wamt to offer was now up for grabs. It gave me the feeling that they weren’t honest and only interested in making money off of me. I joined a different company with the same payraise they offered in the end (except it was their first offer). Bottomline: trust your gut. If you get a lovely feeling from their offer, it’s probably a lovely offer. Don’t be afraid to interview at 10 companies before taking an offer. YOU need to be happy with the offer/company/culture. Don’t compromise and get stuck in a job you don’t fully like.
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Aug 20, 2018 11:56
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Zauper posted:Vacation of course is not billable, and so there's an expectation that you don't take it (unless you're ahead on the billable target) and are working 50+ hours a week to hit the billable goal. Not much of a thing in Norway. You're legally obligated to take a vacation. LochNessMonster posted:The fact that they are majorly lowballing you in an insanely difficult market (as well as you moving to private sector) says everything about their business attitude and probably culture as well. To be fair, I can't know for sure what people are actually making in my field, with my kind of CV and at this point in time. There's a large disparity between the statistics I've found and the anecdotal evidence I've gathered from acquaintances. I suspect a lot of juniors work for poo poo pay, but that people who know how to play the game can earn almost twice that. I think I am probably being lowballed at least a little, but the people who are saying I could do much better are quite biased. Still, you are right, I'm no longer feeling that great about this offer. I will let it simmer for a bit, and then probably send them a reply where I call them on some of their stuff and double down. Staying for a while longer where I'm at would give me another one of those stipulated raises, and I could then also claim an official two years of experience in further interviews. I'll continue applying to stuff because the market is so good, but since I don't have much to lose I'm going to aim even higher and see if a good offer comes around. LochNessMonster posted:It gave me the feeling that they weren't honest and only interested in making money off of me. capitalism.txt btw
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Aug 20, 2018 17:04
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Got to the negotiation phase with a company that is much closer to home than my current job, could use a bit of advice. Taking this new job would lead to a slight pay bump, a much shorter commute (~15 mins vs 45-60), and some pretty good benefits that kick in after 90 days. The downside is that it isn’t exactly a field I want to get into, on top of the fact that people there seem to work insane hours. Like, most people get in at 5 AM and stay until 6!or 7 PM. In fact, when I did my second interview on a Friday evening, most of the office seemed to still be there around 6 PM. For reference, the alternative to this is to remain in a contract position that really just consists of me driving an hour to work to sit on my rear end all day twiddling my thumbs. All that in mind, what are the odds I could get this company to make me non-exempt? I feel like if there was a threat of overtime pay looming, they would likely do their best to actively avoid keeping me past 40 hours in a week. That, or I would just make serious bank. They seem to be pushing really hard to bring me in to the organization, and I have existing employment and further interviews/offers to use as leverage, but despite that, i feel like going non-exempt is a really tough sell.
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Aug 21, 2018 13:32
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loving lmao
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Aug 21, 2018 13:38
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:loving lmao Hahaha, yeah, sounds about right. The job search continues!
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Aug 21, 2018 13:44
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Biomute posted:Not much of a thing in Norway. You're legally obligated to take a vacation. I work in one of the big consulting firms in Norway, and I work regularly on staffing to the project I'm on. I see a lot of both internal CV's, and external CV's from sub contractors. If you want, pm me your CV and what role you are applying for and I can probably give you some feedback on the salary they are suggesting. That being said, there is some truth in that your salary can be lower if you have days off for training included. Some consulting firms will have their salary closely tied to how much you are billing, while others give you the same base salary even if you have no hours billed at all. The latter will then typically give you some weeks every year for training, and if you are ever between projects and cannot bill anything, your salary will still be the same. Though obviously if there is a huge difference between suggested salaries, it's likely not worth it.
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Aug 21, 2018 15:48
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Sjonkel posted:I work in one of the big consulting firms in Norway, and I work regularly on staffing to the project I'm on. I see a lot of both internal CV's, and external CV's from sub contractors. If you want, pm me your CV and what role you are applying for and I can probably give you some feedback on the salary they are suggesting. I ended up somewhat turning them down because I did not feel quite right about it, which is of course, the ultimate noob move. I mean, I left the door open, but I should have made them a slightly lower counter offer instead of just explaining why their offer was in my eyes not good enough. I don't feel that bad about it though, it was a learning experience. I don't feel completely at ease with giving out my CV because I am applying to companies like yours, but basically I've got 1,5 years of experience as a full-stack Java developer, doing pretty standard web applications and microservices stuff, some database and search engine stuff and a bit of devops. There's a Masters in Comp-Sci, with a specialization in Distributed Systems and Networks, as well as a certificate of apprenticeship (2 years) and then 1 year of experience as an ICT Technician. I currently get paid 570k, but I expect to receive a raise this fall. They originally offered 550k, and I got them up to 600k. I was sort of hoping for 700k, or at the very least 650k. Yeah, I'm pretty sure the company in question was very relaxed about billable hours and stuff.
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Aug 21, 2018 16:59
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Biomute posted:I ended up somewhat turning them down because I did not feel quite right about it, which is of course, the ultimate noob move. I mean, I left the door open, but I should have made them a slightly lower counter offer instead of just explaining why their offer was in my eyes not good enough. I don't feel that bad about it though, it was a learning experience. Not to highjack the thread, but I'll just respond and I guess anything else can be done in PM. 600k (assuming this isn't included overtime or other bonuses) honestly doesn't sound as awful as I'd thought for 1,5 years of relevant experience, but I'm sure you can get more elsewhere. The other experience you have would likely make it a little easier to sell you, but it's probably not hugely relevant for a developer position. If money is your primary motivation (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing), then you probably want to stay away from the big international consultant firms. Just make sure you compare the full benefit package like pension plan, cell phone, time off for training, flexible hours and mentorship programs. Other things that are harder to compare when interviewing is what kind of projects you'll likely end up on, what fields they are in, and if you'll be with a full team of colleagues or hired out as a single consultant. My experience is that you can make (possible much) more doing the latter, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. The marked for java developers, especially if you also know some javascript/frontend, is extremely hot in Oslo at least, so you'll have no problem finding employment elsewhere. It doesn't sound like my company is a perfect match, but on Friday I'm having a few beers with some ex-colleagues that work for a company where you can make well over the 700k you asked for if you're billable 100% of the time, so I can ask them if they are hiring and if your profile is interesting to them. I'll send you a PM on Saturday if you want.
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Aug 21, 2018 19:47
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Sjonkel posted:Not to highjack the thread, but I'll just respond and I guess anything else can be done in PM. I don't really consider the ICT Technician experience as necessarily relevant either, but I like to mention it in the hope that it somehow gets across that I'm a developer that actually knows my way around a Linux terminal, and won't have downtime waiting for support to come sort out my email or whatever. I know basic javascript and the now mostly outdated JSF frontend stuff for JBoss servers. I'd like to get into React or Vue, but mostly because it would look good at my CV, and because I dislike feeling like I am behind the curve. I do tend to drift towards the back-end tasks. Honestly, the money is kind of a secondary concern, but since I'm in a relatively advantageous position and I don't plan to be moving about very much I'd rather spend the extra time looking for a place that is nice to work and which make the transition worth my while. I already have a talk set up for one of the huge international consultancy companies you mentioned because a former colleague insisted I apply there, and I'd certainly give your friends my time as well if they're interested, but I will admit I am starting to wonder if perhaps an in-house position might be a better fit if the whole "billable time" thing is as stressful as some of you seem to be making it out to be. Why do you do the whole consulting thing?
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Aug 21, 2018 20:44
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Any tips for not getting shafted as a new immigrant? We can take contract work on a holiday visa, but permanent work needs employer sponsorship (and 3 months for visa processing). I have a nice senior IT job in Canada and expect I'll have to take a pay cut in New Zealand, but I'd like to minimize the damage. It's a small job market so my plan is to blast every recruiter and job ad all at once about 2 weeks before I fly over alone, doing Skype/WebEx where possible. I've got enough PTO with my current employer to stick it out for about 2 months before I have to resign, and like 2 years of savings if it came down to it. I think my best shot is to land a decent contract gig ASAP, but a sponsored job is key -- that visa will get us medical coverage, let my partner take permanent work, and let us comfortably commit to selling our house. My BATNA feels weak and I'm worried I'll cave to a lovely offer and take years to get back up to where I am now. High-risk alternative: we sell the house, both resign and go over on holiday visas, and see where the cards fall. That improves my BATNA (we wouldn't be separated for months) but burns our bridges.
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Aug 26, 2018 17:22
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since you're in tech, can you look look for an all remote job? Even picking up remote contracts might give you more leverage in the local market. I don't know enough to give more helpful input but if it's an angle you've never considered, maybe look into it?
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Aug 26, 2018 17:47
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Xguard86 posted:since you're in tech, can you look look for an all remote job? Even picking up remote contracts might give you more leverage in the local market. I don't know enough to give more helpful input but if it's an angle you've never considered, maybe look into it? I'd be fine with it, but in ~18 months of watching NZ job boards I've only seen a couple ads mention even partial WFH. They're also full of things like "requires New Zealand work experience", and by some accounts they can be pretty cliquey and discriminatory.
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Aug 26, 2018 17:57
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I mean jobs that still count as local. Nominally still under contract or as an employee in your home market.
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Aug 26, 2018 19:06
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Oh sorry, I get it now. I mean it's a possibility, but EST business hours would translate to 00:00-08:00 (I did night shifts for years and it blows) and all it really gets me is an income stream, which fortunately isn't the priority. All I can think to do is get as many offers as possible.
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Aug 26, 2018 20:03
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Hi, I posted in the Career thread because I didn't know this one existed, and KYOON pointed me here. Basically, my situation is one where I've received a job offer that is really just a raise by means of technically changing my position (my job itself stays identical, same boss/duties/etc, but position changes). I kinda hosed up when they called me today and heavily implied I was okay with the offered salary, but since I haven't actually signed anything yet (they said they'd send it over tomorrow) I figured it couldn't hurt to maybe bring up the possibility of increasing my salary a bit from the offer. Since it's a position at a state university, my salary is tied to a pay scale. For my particular pay scale, pay can range from like $45k to $103k, and the job posting listed a range of $45k-$65k (the latter range is basically the range I have to work with; nothing above this is viable given the grants my position is funded by). The offer was for $52k. From what I've read online, they are often willing to move up the scale a bit when making offers for state/government jobs like this, and I would like to at least aim for the mid of the range on the posting (so $55k+). I figure it can't hurt to try calling tomorrow and bringing it up, though I'm not quite sure how to go about it. Since I currently work at the same university, they obviously have access to my current salary, though I'm currently direly underpaid for a programmer/web developer with 8 years of experience at $37k (which is why my boss had me apply for this position in the first place, though my boss doesn't have direct control over setting the salary). The "8 years" thing is also partly why I want to make this offer as good as possible, since I'm basically making up for lost time (I should have asked for this raise years ago). Speaking of my boss, there's one thing I'm uncertain whether I should mention. When my boss created these positions and had me and a coworker apply for them, he expressed the desire to "get me into the high 50s or low 60s" salary-wise. I'm not sure if I should mention this, though, since I don't know if there are any potential legal issues with basically making it explicit that one of those slots was never truly competitive* (there's a legal obligation to keep all job postings public for X amount of time for government jobs like this). Anyways, I'm sure a lot of general advice applies, though certain things make this difference from negotiating with a private business who doesn't know what I make now. Any other advice people might have would be appreciated. * Though I guess technically someone else could have gotten it if a really awesome experienced programmer were willing to work for $60k for some reason, but that was always kind of doubtful Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Aug 29, 2018 |
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Aug 29, 2018 04:39
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I mean yeah if you want to say "I'm worth $60K and here's why" go ahead. But if you already let slip that you're going to accept $52K then in no circumstance are they now going to offer even $52,001. Now that I've said that I should add a disclaimer that all my experience is in the corporate world and I know nothing about academia.
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Aug 29, 2018 13:44
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Is there any particular reason you're shooting for a job that'll pay you $55k as a developer with 8 years experience? That is insanely low.
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Aug 29, 2018 14:36
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In the US that should be +100k easy.
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Aug 29, 2018 15:14
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bamhand posted:In the US that should be +100k easy.
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Aug 29, 2018 15:45
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Hoodwinker posted:Is there any particular reason you're shooting for a job that'll pay you $55k as a developer with 8 years experience? That is insanely low. A couple reasons. One is that, to be frank, I am not very good at all (and that isn't just low self-esteem talking, I'm genuinely not a good programmer). If anything, my experience is kind of an albatross; most decent programmers with 1-2 years experience are probably better than me. I don't really doubt that I could get interviews (and maybe even spin them into a job if I was lucky), but it would be a very big risk that I'm not really in a position to take right now. The other is that my current job is very low stress and the subject matter is interesting. One thing I could bring up is that I'm virtually certain my coworker will get a higher offer, since he currently makes $54k and it obviously makes no sense for him to switch to this position if it pays less (his duties would also remain identical, just like with me). While my coworker has been here longer, his duties are also the sort of thing that usually pays less (though the job position description is the same in this case) - he mostly deals with preparing and uploading data. Edit: One other thing I should mention is that I'm pretty certain my boss is fine with the higher salary, so I could possibly get him to mention it or something, since I know he doesn't set the specific amount (just the grade probably). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Aug 29, 2018 |
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Aug 29, 2018 15:53
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Ytlaya posted:A couple reasons. One is that, to be frank, I am not very good at all (and that isn't just low self-esteem talking, I'm genuinely not a good programmer). I think about 90% of programmers can be described this way. Exhibit A: the internet.
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Aug 29, 2018 16:07
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Ytlaya posted:A couple reasons. One is that, to be frank, I am not very good at all (and that isn't just low self-esteem talking, I'm genuinely not a good programmer). If anything, my experience is kind of an albatross; most decent programmers with 1-2 years experience are probably better than me. I don't really doubt that I could get interviews (and maybe even spin them into a job if I was lucky), but it would be a very big risk that I'm not really in a position to take right now. Don't disqualify yourself from a more comfortable existence. Let other people do that if necessary, but don't hamstring yourself because of low self-esteem. You deserve to give yourself a better shake than that. Edit: Vis a vis risk. Where is the risk exactly? You get yourself into a job that pays double what you're making now and if you get fired after 3 months (seriously, it won't happen though) then you're still financially as well off as if you had been working for 6 months. Now you have a 3 month lead on whatever your next opportunity might be. I really think you're overestimating the risk and underestimating the impact of challenging yourself to leave your comfort zone here. Hoodwinker fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Aug 29, 2018 |
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Aug 29, 2018 16:07
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As a developer myself I can tell you that your skills are pretty much inconsequential as far as me wanting to work with you. All I would want from you is to not be an obstacle, and surprisingly many fail in this regard. If you contribute, even just a little bit, that's a bonus. I know people complaining that they're not paid more when they have not committed a single line of code the entire year, and seemingly spend all day coming up with derails for meetings the rest of us discussed months ago.
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Aug 29, 2018 16:43
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Biomute posted:As a developer myself I can tell you that your skills are pretty much inconsequential as far as me wanting to work with you. All I would want from you is to not be an obstacle, and surprisingly many fail in this regard. If you contribute, even just a little bit, that's a bonus. I know people complaining that they're not paid more when they have not committed a single line of code the entire year, and seemingly spend all day coming up with derails for meetings the rest of us discussed months ago. Yeah, stuff like this kinda makes me wonder; I know I'm waaay worse than most of the other programmers I've met, but most of the other programmers I've met have also been people who are extremely good/smart, so I don't have much of a basis for comparison. There's also the fact that I've always been almost entirely on my own, and I'm terrible at self-teaching (this is why my ~8 years of experience realistically translates to like 1-2), so i'm not really sure how I'd do if I actually had multiple coworkers and only needed to focus on a single part of a program/web app/whatever. While there are still personal reasons that I'm willing to take a significant pay cut to maintain the status quo (plus genetics just being a lot more interesting than -insert random business thing-), I guess it can't hurt to at least throw my resume out there and see what options there are. edit: Regarding my current situation, I spoke with my coworker and he told me that he initially received the same offer as me, but that they apparently noticed it was lower than his current salary and returned with another offer that is a bit higher than he currently makes. This basically proves they are able to change it. I feel like I'm justified in asking for about the same; while they could bring up that my coworker has been here much longer, my duties are also the sort of thing that normally pays more (even if our position titles are identical) and I feel like 8 years is longer enough that seniority shouldn't matter quite as much. I'm also going to speak with my boss when I can find him, since I'm 95% sure that he is fine with my salary being higher than they offered, and I imagine it can't hurt to just have the guy who posted the position be like "yeah you can pay this guy more." Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Aug 29, 2018 |
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Aug 29, 2018 17:27
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It's frustrating because your personal view of what a good job is extremely nuanced and, likely, divorced from reality. You are probably reaching into the either, imagining a "good" program, and what objectively is "good" and having a hard time reconciling your work with what is beautiful. But, and this is important, that is not the actual standard against what you will be measured. Can you solve problems and submit code that works? That is the standard. Do you meet that standard?
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Aug 29, 2018 19:11
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If it does half of what business is expecting and doesn't break master (too much) then it'll ship.
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Aug 29, 2018 19:17
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Speaking of the current wage situation, add +1 to the apparently large list of situations where something was gained from negotiating. I didn't negotiate for much, but I still ended up with more than I would have if I hadn't. I ended up getting $52k up to $55k; I didn't go higher than that largely because my coworker (who is probably even more underpaid than me) has a Masters and even more years than me and is only at something between 55-60, and I couldn't figure out how to approach that. The other reason is that I had to give a single specific number, and I'm limited by the range of the pay scale and grant funding available. But I (apparently correctly) figured that there wasn't really an excuse for not bumping it up just $3k from where it was. At least I'll feel a little better (and likely more ambitious) next time I might want to negotiate a salary change. Goodpancakes posted:It's frustrating because your personal view of what a good job is extremely nuanced and, likely, divorced from reality. You are probably reaching into the either, imagining a "good" program, and what objectively is "good" and having a hard time reconciling your work with what is beautiful. But, and this is important, that is not the actual standard against what you will be measured. Can you solve problems and submit code that works? That is the standard. Do you meet that standard? I think it's mostly that my experience is very "fragmented" and limited due to only working with (over the years) two web applications, neither of which I built the "backbone" for. As a result, there are a lot of random basic things missing from my skill-set, and I can't honestly say that my 8 years amounts to more than ~2 years for someone with a more "educational" position. The analogy I like to use is that, if a piece of software/web app were a house, I have the skills of a repairman/handyman who can fix broken things and maybe make simple add-ons, but not an architect or person who directs large-scale construction. I can make sure the input is correct to stick into some third party code and then process the output, but I could never (at least with my current experience - it's possible I would benefit a lot from having other programmers to work with) write the sort of code in most of the third-party libraries I work with. For example, one of the big things our web app does is genetic mapping, and all I do is grab stuff from the web form, generate the proper input files, submit them to the third party mapping code (which I don't touch), grab the output, and format it into something the code that draws the figure can use. It's possible I could learn to do other things, but I don't currently have those skills. "Can you solve problems" really depends entirely upon the problem and type of solution necessary.
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Aug 30, 2018 21:10
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Being a developer is largely the capacity to develop knowledge from a position of ignorance, not in having a dictionary of arbitrary code mechanisms memorized. I still feel strongly you misunderstand the relevant skills you need to possess. If you have been "solving problems" for 8 years: congratulations! you're developer material. Every company I've ever been at has strongly encouraged both taking the time to learn the tools you need to use and provided resources to learn them. My current job uses Ruby. I knew 0 Ruby. I spent a couple of weeks learning some Ruby syntax prior to the interview, told them this, and got hired. Spoilers: I've learned all the additional Ruby I need to know on the job. I have written zero third-party library code.
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Aug 30, 2018 21:25
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Probably off topic, but you might want to try to get out of your comfort zone a bit. Learn something new. Spend weeks banging your head against the wall if neccesary. Hoodwinker is correct, and proving that you can do that would probably give you a a lot more self-confidence. Nice job on the negotiation!
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Aug 30, 2018 21:40
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In my developer career I've learned virtually everything "on the job". And those things have changed numerous times and will continue to change. Being a developer can be summarized as "I don't know x, but I can figure it out and do something useful with it in a reasonable amount of time". Experience is doing that lots of times so you start to see patterns and similarities so it becomes quicker, but you're always going to be faced with things you don't know that you have to just figure out. Almost every new project I start has some large piece of it that I've never worked with before, or has been so long ago I'm practically starting over fresh. There are of course similarities that come with experience, too, but never has it been "oh great I know how to do 100% of this start to finish off the top of my head". Not even close. Guinness fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Aug 30, 2018 |
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Aug 30, 2018 21:59
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Look man, I'm glad you got more money, but you could do your future self a favor, get outside your comfort zone, make even more money, and also develop increased self-confidence in your skills. An oft-overlooked part of planning for the future isn't just the financial capital you possess, but your personal capital as a function of your abilities to stay employed. During a market downturn, you're better off being easily employable than by having a comparable amount of money saved up (though it's obviously better to have both). Right now you're negotiating against yourself for both less financial and less personal capital. That's bad planning.
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Aug 30, 2018 22:15
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Hoodwinker posted:Look man, I'm glad you got more money, but you could do your future self a favor, get outside your comfort zone, make even more money, and also develop increased self-confidence in your skills. Yeah, honestly I realize this is all true, and the replies here have convinced me to at least see what reception a job search gets. Pretty soon I will finally have two actual programmer coworkers (at least one of which is significantly better than me), which will be pretty beneficial and will give me a chance to expand my horizons some; up until now I've always had to deal with fixing/changing little minor things (since I was literally the only person maintaining the web service) and haven't had much of chance to focus on any one specific thing in-depth. Probably my biggest weakness as a programmer is that I'm very bad at self-teaching (not stuff like language syntax, but more broad things); I learn best when I have someone to directly interact with. That's probably the biggest thing that makes me think that I could potentially become significantly better than I am now; my stagnation almost directly coincides with when my superior left a few years back; up until then he would look over all the code I wrote, which helped a lot (since I learn best through people pointing out what I'm doing wrong). A big part of it is being risk averse, but after I save up more money (which is going to happen really fast after this raise) that won't really be an excuse any more.
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Aug 30, 2018 22:57
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, honestly I realize this is all true, and the replies here have convinced me to at least see what reception a job search gets. Pretty soon I will finally have two actual programmer coworkers (at least one of which is significantly better than me), which will be pretty beneficial and will give me a chance to expand my horizons some; up until now I've always had to deal with fixing/changing little minor things (since I was literally the only person maintaining the web service) and haven't had much of chance to focus on any one specific thing in-depth. Probably my biggest weakness as a programmer is that I'm very bad at self-teaching (not stuff like language syntax, but more broad things); I learn best when I have someone to directly interact with. That's probably the biggest thing that makes me think that I could potentially become significantly better than I am now; my stagnation almost directly coincides with when my superior left a few years back; up until then he would look over all the code I wrote, which helped a lot (since I learn best through people pointing out what I'm doing wrong). With regards to risk aversion, I would consider myself a fairly risk averse person. However, there are a lot of risks we unknowingly take by choosing not to engage certain portions of our world or by challenging ourselves. Doing research, seeking out new experiences, and deciding not to do certain things based on the merits of another path is far less risky than doing no research, not seeking out new experiences, and deciding to stay the course because you're afraid of what you'll find. Don't confuse fear of change with risk aversion. This is why the other goons and I have pushed the message of getting out there so hard: it's a lot less risky than I think your gut is telling you - and we know this - and when you've taken a few more steps you'll know it too and can bask in it. Best of luck to you!
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Aug 30, 2018 23:08
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