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You cast Darkness on yourself and step 15 feet away from your buddies. Fiend is not a good Warlock for control but you still get Command, Suggestion, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, and Counterspell. But yeah Warlock is even more direct combat focused and less versatile than Sorcerer, who is already considered the worst caster due to their limited number of spells available. The comparison point for Warlocks is other martials.
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Aug 20, 2018 18:36
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Conspiratiorist posted:You cast Darkness on yourself and step 15 feet away from your buddies. This is a good way to think about it because even as a pure caster, because of reliance on EB you are effectively playing a hybrid class.
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Aug 20, 2018 18:50
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And even then, the truth is that casters below level 6 spend over half the battles just casting attack cantrips when they're pacing themselves.
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Aug 20, 2018 19:14
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God you think some of these Warlock issues could have been hammered out in that massive public playtest.  I'm thinking about adding the following feats as house rules but obviously, I've not had a chance to playtest them so they're probably over/underpowered as gently caress. quote:Defender’s Mark
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Aug 20, 2018 20:40
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There's an optional rule right in the DMG that gives marking back, and it's available to everyone but it isn't nearly as good as 4e's or yours, but it is there.
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Aug 20, 2018 20:55
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Just give sorcerors the demon pact and Eldritch blast and remove warlocks entirely
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Aug 20, 2018 21:01
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Section Z posted:Yeah them GM grade suggestion spells are always pretty dangerous. What with being allowed to force players to walk into a known death trap instead of automatically save vs instructions that will cause self harm. It was worded to make them think the press would not go off that turn. Added on they did the same thing to some Barbed Devils.
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Aug 20, 2018 21:09
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mastershakeman posted:Just give sorcerors the demon pact and Eldritch blast and remove warlocks entirely Warlocks are cool and good and I will fight you. They should have made them better than just cantrip turrets though.
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Aug 20, 2018 21:26
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Bhodi posted:I was expecting a little more control and options and a little less "just damage", I guess. I made a char concept before I really looked deeply at the warlock rules and the extent of my knowledge from skimming was "kinda a sorc, but with passive powers given by otherworldly entities rather than metamagic spell boosts." We lack a mage but already have a sorcerer so I figured I'd tomelock for alarm, detect magic, and identify and to try out the ritual magic system. Plus, it's something different, why not try it?
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Aug 20, 2018 21:51
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Glagha posted:Warlocks are cool and good and I will fight you. Murphy's law is also such people who will not abuse that and want to try a straight warlock will hardly get any short rest. While people who dip into it for ultimate bullshit combo power get to run hog wild. Along those lines, I've had friend flip flop between proclaiming "Hunger of Hadar is so bullshit, it's amazing" if it's gonna be a Warlock using it, and warning a friend playing bard "Ugh why would you ever take Hunger? It doesn't scale!" to not use it as their off class pick. Section Z fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Aug 20, 2018 |
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Aug 20, 2018 21:58
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Chaltab posted:God you think some of these Warlock issues could have been hammered out in that massive public playtest. Warlocks were introduced very early on, back when classes only got up to maybe 5th level, in a VERY different manner. It was interesting, though I didn't entirely like it because it wasn't like the 3.5 at will invocation Warlock. Though it did have the benefit of no actual spellcasting and Eldritch Blast was the best damaging at will ability at the time, and the only "cantrip" like ability that scaled at the time I believe. It along with the very different but much cooler Sorcerer of the time were removed. Then never returned for any of the later public playtests. The next time anyone saw either was in the closed playtest packet that came out immediately before the final release. A bunch of stuff changed between that and the final release as well, basically nerfing Battlemaster's, Monks, and a few other classes who were eventually able to get 1 of their short rest recharge resources back per round, instead they now get 1 back when they roll Initiative but only if they have 0 on hand. So there was literally no chance for it to be gone over in the massive public playtest. I am not entirely happy with how it ended up. Some invocations are nice, others really annoy me. Any invocation that is usable 1/day, using a spell slot at that, really annoys me. The fact that they have actual spell casting, even with a short rest recharge, kind of annoys me. I would have preferred the 3.5 Warlock style, and it is weird that things that the 3.5 Warlock was best at the 5e Warlock simply doesn't get anymore. Even though other classes like Dragon Sorcerer or some Cleric options get instead. Even the old playtest version might have been better, though the current version has more at will invocations, but the old one only went up to level 5 and who knows how much more at will options it would have had if it had continued. I am also kind of miffed about the Sorcerer as I feel the old version in the playtest was much more interesting, but people freaked out about it getting armor proficiency, though that was just the Dragon Sorcerer which at the time was the only archetype available.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:06
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This discussion is really amusing to me, because my wizard player likes to complain vocally about how he's so ineffective compared to our warlock, who literally just blankets the battlefield in a AoE spell like Hunger of Hadar or Sickening Radiance and pushing/pulling enemies into it with Eldritch Blast's various invocations. I know he's just mad that he can't single-handedly end encounters but lmao that the wizard thinks he's underpowered. I made the mistake of letting him use that grossly overpowered Loremaster UA without looking at it too closely so I can't help but revel in the whining.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:14
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Malpais Legate posted:This discussion is really amusing to me, because my wizard player likes to complain vocally about how he's so ineffective compared to our warlock, who literally just blankets the battlefield in a AoE spell like Hunger of Hadar or Sickening Radiance and pushing/pulling enemies into it with Eldritch Blast's various invocations. What made this extra funny was that the Warlock was a GMPC, so we got to watch the GM declare his warlock is incapable of defeating fish. Section Z fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Aug 20, 2018 |
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Aug 20, 2018 22:19
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I'll admit I have no loving idea how to handle localized darkness like that. Would they be able to recognize the way out? How do I believably make them wander about in a sphere of cosmic horror? I've flip-flopped on it but generally I want to make the player feel like their spell slot wasn't a waste. My players didn't call bullshit when the monsters scatter to leave it, so I think I'm handling it okay. The warlock is pretty pleased with his ability to divide groups easily with it.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:26
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Malpais Legate posted:This discussion is really amusing to me, because my wizard player likes to complain vocally about how he's so ineffective compared to our warlock, who literally just blankets the battlefield in a AoE spell like Hunger of Hadar or Sickening Radiance and pushing/pulling enemies into it with Eldritch Blast's various invocations. Wizard really is very anemic until it gets to around level 7 or 8; their gimmicks are their spell list and arcane recovery, but it takes a while before they truly kick in. Lore Master is busted tho. What the gently caress is your Wizard doing if not casting Force damage Toll the Death and 8d6+2d10 Forceballs with an INT save?
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Aug 20, 2018 22:30
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Malpais Legate posted:I'll admit I have no loving idea how to handle localized darkness like that. Would they be able to recognize the way out? How do I believably make them wander about in a sphere of cosmic horror? I've flip-flopped on it but generally I want to make the player feel like their spell slot wasn't a waste. Have range on bandits? They will just mindlessly rush you the four turns it takes to close to melee. Have range on wild dogs? They will spam dodge the two turns it takes to reach you. Several undead nobles who like to hunt people because they are the best game etc etc will just rush our favorable position at the entrance to their dining hall and not even ride their skeleton horses ("...Maybe we can resale these saddles we just delivered to them?") Hook Horrors meanwhile will spend the entire encounter on the walls or ceilings annoying melee attackers, then make a tactical retreat intending to make US run to a choke point around corners bad for AoE castings so they can keep pick US off. Then it's off to pick off giants one at a time because we got to milk the same single bard illusion spell+Bluff of "I'm TOTALLY your boss, now come over here to this oddly silent tree line for a private conversation." Section Z fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Aug 20, 2018 |
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Aug 20, 2018 22:33
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Conspiratiorist posted:Wizard really is very anemic until it gets to around level 7 or 8; their gimmicks are their spell list and arcane recovery, but it takes a while before they truly kick in. He's constantly doing Forceballs and Charisma save Disintegrates. They're currently level 13 so I'm constantly feeling like I'm laying traintracks in front of a speeding train of demigods. His original gameplan, and still frequent battle strategy, is casting Haste on the barbarian. "The Barbarian is a magic item to which I do not have to attune." It delights the barbarian; one encounter had him kill two combatants at one end of a full-size ship and run to the opposite end of the ship to kill two more.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:42
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Conspiratiorist posted:their gimmicks are their spell list I don't get this. Maybe I'm a bad wizard. But, if you can only prep level+intmod spells, it feels like I'm usually just prepping the same amount broadly useful spells over and over and I have a spellbook full of situational stuff I never use.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:44
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Malpais Legate posted:He's constantly doing Forceballs and Charisma save Disintegrates. They're currently level 13 so I'm constantly feeling like I'm laying traintracks in front of a speeding train of demigods. If he's whining at level 13 then your player is just an idiot, as at that point Wizards have cracked the game wide open with their sheer narrative power. Haste on the Barbarian at level 13, really? Toshimo posted:I don't get this. Maybe I'm a bad wizard. But, if you can only prep level+intmod spells, it feels like I'm usually just prepping the same amount broadly useful spells over and over and I have a spellbook full of situational stuff I never use. Wizards have the same INT+level spells prepared as everyone else (sans sorc), on top of all their Rituals which they never need to prepare to cast, and they get the singular capability to learn the situational downtime high level spells on the Wizard list. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Aug 20, 2018 |
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Aug 20, 2018 22:51
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Meanwhile Level 17 Wizard unlocks the fabled ability to lament "I can only cast magic missile so many times per day!" while casting magic missile infinity times per day. But you do you, lv 17 Fighter's second action surge that many GMs dictate is only worth a single swing of a sword to spend.
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Aug 20, 2018 23:00
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There was another thing in the playtest I recall, Great Weapon Fighters getting Strength Mod damage on a missed attack, which was changed to something much more fiddly and less evocative in the final version. Probably gonna make that a houserule because I like that way better than rerolling ones and twos.
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Aug 20, 2018 23:03
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Conspiratiorist posted:If he's whining at level 13 then your player is just an idiot, as at that point Wizards have cracked the game wide open with their sheer narrative power. Haste on the Barbarian at level 13, really? It's still pretty effective at their level, the barbarian has an uncanny ability to crit at least once a round, and Haste paired with GWM he's doing four attacks at like, 16 damage bare minimum per attack? I think my math is right: 1d12+10+5 for strength, not even accounting for his Belt of Frost Giant Strength and Vicious Greataxe. An average damage roll would be like, 23? I He's consistently the deadliest party member. Our running joke is that Haste is just the Barbarian's purée setting. I know that on paper martials really lose in comparison to a wizard, but my experience in this group has definitely been Don't gently caress With The Barbarian.
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Aug 20, 2018 23:37
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I have a group of ~20 players doing T1 AL content and we lost one of our DMs for the foreseeable future. Any 2 or 4hr modules in particular people recommend that I could pick up and run for the group? (No S7 pls)
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Aug 20, 2018 23:41
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Hey anyone got that table that represented how alignments are used in reality by players?
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Aug 20, 2018 23:45
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Malpais Legate posted:I'll admit I have no loving idea how to handle localized darkness like that. Casting Darkness is good. Casting Darkness on something is better. A group of 1st Levels can take down an Ettin if they’re smart about it.
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Aug 20, 2018 23:47
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Conspiratiorist posted:Hey anyone got that table that represented how alignments are used in reality by players? If the GM attacks you with children you're good.
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Aug 21, 2018 00:34
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Toshimo posted:I don't get this. Maybe I'm a bad wizard. But, if you can only prep level+intmod spells, it feels like I'm usually just prepping the same amount broadly useful spells over and over and I have a spellbook full of situational stuff I never use. I've only played a couple wizards and only up to like level 7 but my tack so far has been prepare broadly useful things and learn every wizard ritual in the game. The rituals vary in usefulness I guess depending on DM but I get the distinct impression wizard only becomes a god when he starts getting the kind of wacko busted spells nobody else does
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Aug 21, 2018 00:38
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Walk me through how darkness, works, mechanically? This is my understanding, and it seems like more of a hinderance than an advantage, even accepting all the bookkeeping of who remembers where who is where. Assuming you cast it on a stone in your hand, you can cover or uncover it once during your turn for free (not both). Everyone inside is considered "heavily obscured" and gains the blinded condition - they can't see, fail sight-required ability checks, and all attack rolls against them have advantage, they have disadvantage to attacks. If you're inside the sphere attacking someone also inside, it's effectively a combat flattener/lengthener. You each know where the other is the last time they attacked if they attacked you. There are no AoA. If you attack then move, there are a lot of whiffs. You both have straight attacks since advantage/disadvantage does not stack and since you get one of each they cancel each other out. This seems like it overall hurts rogues/rangers, since they have abilities that apply and use disadvantage, and would be good on same. Someone outside the sphere attacking someone on the inside first has to guess what square the people inside the darkness in, and if they guess wrong, they automatically fail to hit and do no damage. Assuming they guess correctly, they gain advantage on the attack, but since they can't see what they're hitting, they also get disadvantage which cancels it out. This also cancels out any advantage-granting situations like flanking or aid other. Many spells cannot be targeted at all. There are no AoAs for standing at the edge and wanting to wail on enemies fleeing the effect. Mechanically, it feels more like a stalemate and clever enemies might just move around in the darkness itself or try and duck in as much as they can. Action economy means darkness works better for those who are outnumbered. AoEs operate as normal. Warlock with devil's sight get to keep the advantage. E: Maybe it'd be good if you can find a way to have it float 20 feet above an enemy so their top half is in darkness and everyone shoots at their feet. Bhodi fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Aug 21, 2018 |
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Aug 21, 2018 00:52
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I've only played a couple wizards and only up to like level 7 but my tack so far has been prepare broadly useful things and learn every wizard ritual in the game. The rituals vary in usefulness I guess depending on DM but I get the distinct impression wizard only becomes a god when he starts getting the kind of wacko busted spells nobody else does I know 5e isn't this game, but I'd really like a game where all the stuff that isn't Mage Armor/Magic Missiles/Shield/Sleep gets a chance to shine. I mean, Featherfall would be a great trick to have in your pocket. Or Absorb Elements. Maybe Grease, or Jump, or Longstrider. But, it feels like you can't even prep them because you've already got 2-3 must-haves prepped and god drat I'm not gonna waste preps I could be using on level 4 spells to prep a Featherfall.
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Aug 21, 2018 00:53
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Toshimo posted:I know 5e isn't this game, but I'd really like a game where all the stuff that isn't Mage Armor/Magic Missiles/Shield/Sleep gets a chance to shine. I mean, Featherfall would be a great trick to have in your pocket. Or Absorb Elements. Maybe Grease, or Jump, or Longstrider. But, it feels like you can't even prep them because you've already got 2-3 must-haves prepped and god drat I'm not gonna waste preps I could be using on level 4 spells to prep a Featherfall. Totally agree but I do think as you progress, the utility of Magic Missile and Sleep drops to near 0 (and the marginal utility of upcasting isn't there either) and that's where a spell like Feather Fall can shine. Like you're still probably never going to use it but the one day you do, it's going to save everyone's life.
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Aug 21, 2018 01:01
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Toshimo posted:I know 5e isn't this game, but I'd really like a game where all the stuff that isn't Mage Armor/Magic Missiles/Shield/Sleep gets a chance to shine. I mean, Featherfall would be a great trick to have in your pocket. Or Absorb Elements. Maybe Grease, or Jump, or Longstrider. But, it feels like you can't even prep them because you've already got 2-3 must-haves prepped and god drat I'm not gonna waste preps I could be using on level 4 spells to prep a Featherfall. Same, also that was 4e :*( Having said that, your lists of mandatories do change over time but yeah given most people never get high enough or get extra things to compensate thats absolutely something I imagine most people won't see. kingcom fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Aug 21, 2018 |
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Aug 21, 2018 01:04
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Totally agree but I do think as you progress, the utility of Magic Missile and Sleep drops to near 0 (and the marginal utility of upcasting isn't there either) and that's where a spell like Feather Fall can shine. Like you're still probably never going to use it but the one day you do, it's going to save everyone's life. Make it so wizards have to roll to learn the spell and only get spells by finding them
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Aug 21, 2018 01:53
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Like you're still probably never going to use it but the one day you do, it's going to save everyone's life. My first character was a Wizard, and I had Featherfall prepped every single session. It never came up, and nobody even knew I had it until the very end of the campaign when our level 12 party faced off against a Dracolich. After a round or two of slugging it out on the ground, the party's Paladin's turn comes up, and he goes "I climb on its back  ". Dracolich's turn comes up and decides to take the Paladin for a ride, getting high enough to flirt with the fall damage cap. Ranger gets the kill shot a round or two later, and the DM starts collecting d6s to roll falling damage until I told him to not bother.In retrospect, battered though he was, the average damage on a 20d6 fall wouldn't have killed anyone outright at that level, but it was a fun triumphant moment for a humble 1st level spell.
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Aug 21, 2018 02:03
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Bhodi posted:E: Maybe it'd be good if you can find a way to have it float 20 feet above an enemy so their top half is in darkness and everyone shoots at their feet.
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Aug 21, 2018 02:04
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https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1031675018168549376
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Aug 21, 2018 02:07
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Bhodi posted:Walk me through how darkness, works, mechanically? Be mindful that it works like invisibility where unless a creature is purposely taking the Hide action, you're very likely to know where they are, so no need to whiff your attacks first to find out. Other than that, yeah, its main effect is blocking line of sight, as advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out. But for Warlocks and Shadow Sorcerers, they can see right through it and gain all the benefits of being invisible while inside the area of effect. Cast it on yourself, step back if the Darkness would inconvenience allies, and fire away.
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Aug 21, 2018 02:20
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Coming from Pathfinder, where my introduction to the wizard class was a guy joining our level 5 group and engineering the death of around a hundred orcs with just some pre-plan and a tiny bit of prep on our part (we basically blocked up the exits and he did the rest), the 5E wizard definitely feels relatively tame. I mean I never got THAT good (this is a guy who had been playing like 15 years) but pretty early on I was able to figure out how to fight most fights on my terms. In 5E it definitely isn't like that, a lot of loopholes are closed and it's a lot more difficult to increase your DCs which makes battle control requiring a bit of luck (and when I played, it was Storm Kings Thunder which made it even worse because a lot of the better spells have strength or con saves) and if you know you're in for a long haul there's a lot of battles where you're just firing your relatively weak cantrips around, and the small number of spells per natural level up also keep you in check early on. You definitely start to get there though around 7 or 8 depending on your school so that guy whining is silly. And a GM who's generous with scrolls or spellbooks can cause you to have an obscene number of spells to choose from and if you have a good idea what you're in for you can really have some fun.
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Aug 21, 2018 07:47
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lol rules matter unless they don't
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Aug 21, 2018 10:30
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Well duh, they're improvised. Ask your DM.
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Aug 21, 2018 10:47
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Chaltab posted:Cast darkness on the bow of an enemy archer and they're not going to be doing poo poo with it until the spell ends. I think the rules are meant to disqualify that use: "If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it." The bow of the enemy archer is being carried, so the darkness would remain where the bow was at the moment of casting. Darkness would be a great way to avoid AoO if one could momentarily uncover and re-cover it in one object interaction. Say your pebble with darkness cast on it were inside a poison ring or a locket or some other chamber one could open and close with simple thumb move. If the lid of such a chamber were spring loaded it might only require one object interaction to open and release the lid. Bhodi posted:E: Maybe it'd be good if you can find a way to have it float 20 feet above an enemy so their top half is in darkness and everyone shoots at their feet. familiars.
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