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The real hobby of OSR gamers is trying to define it in blogs and on forums.
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Aug 20, 2018 19:36
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moths posted:The real hobby of OSR gamers is trying to define it in blogs and on forums. Meh nah RocknRollaAyatollah posted:DCC isn't an OSR product, it's based on 3rd edition D&D. It apes the style but it's very much a modern game. They don't even put the logo on their products and are up front that it's based on 3rd edition. If 3rd edition is OSR, then I guess Pathfinder is the most successful OSR product in existence. DCC plays nothing like 3.5 apart from the saves. It borrows most of its old school from the B/X game, such as Race as Class, Character Creation, etc, and adds in a bunch of new mechanics that weren't really explored or codified in a corebook before. Patrons have always been a thing, but DCC's patrons are a new thing that nobody else has ever done. Fighters often get fighting maneuvers, but DCC's Mighty Deeds system keeps it without adding in shitloads of boring, tiresome crunch. Spell misfires exist, but oh come on nothing really exists like DCC's crazy magic system. It has new-school ideas, such as different hit die for monsters, and it uses a non-standard XP system, but you cannot tell me it's not very OSR. It certainly plays nothing like 3.5/4e/5e.
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Aug 20, 2018 20:03
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There's usually some great concepts there but it all just breaks down or runs poorly. I started out in AD&D and the OSR movement just embraces the worst design elements of the era and generally talks down any criticism about it.
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:
I can sum it up as a mix of cool ideas, okay ideas, and really stupid ideas, without enough of a common theme to make them really usable in the same game and the small amount of mechanical rules that existed in there were underdeveloped and - without having tried to play it - did not seem hugely playable. But I had a big thing written up where I made fun of the stupidest parts and I thought I may have posted it here.
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Aug 20, 2018 20:15
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Jimbozig posted:See, this perfectly describes Veins of the Earth, which is why I'm surprised to see it getting praise from multiple parties here on this forum. Did I ever post my read-through review of it? I ran a 15 session campaign and players liked it, but said it was pretty stressful
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Aug 20, 2018 20:41
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Jimbozig posted:See, this perfectly describes Veins of the Earth, which is why I'm surprised to see it getting praise from multiple parties here on this forum. Did I ever post my read-through review of it? You had and your conclusion was accurate. I don’t know if I would agree on what the stupidest parts were, because I didn’t own it at the time that you posted your review, but I found it not particularly playable in my readthrough as well.
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Aug 20, 2018 20:59
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Maybe not the place for it, but does anyone remember a bizarre OSR adventure someone F&F'd a while back? It was like this big sandbox thing and there was weird poo poo like a giant bug queen underground that would kill anyone who went there and time travel. I think there was a barrow or something that was the ultimate goal. I think it was LoftFP, but I can't really recall more than that.
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Aug 20, 2018 21:43
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:DCC isn't an OSR product, it's based on 3rd edition D&D. It apes the style but it's very much a modern game. They don't even put the logo on their products and are up front that it's based on 3rd edition. If 3rd edition is OSR, then I guess Pathfinder is the most successful OSR product in existence. The DCC core book has a whole section on OSR and never mentions 3rd edition at all, that I can recall. It's definitely not up front about basing it on 3rd edition, besides using the OGL. Edit: OSR is doing better than ever, especially games like DCC, and has just as toxic a community as any other subset of RPGs or tabletop games that I've seen. At least it's been free of Nazis, to my knowledge, unlike Magic and Call of Cthulhu. edit2: nope, forgot Alexander Macris wrote ACKS. Nazis everywhere. alg fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Aug 20, 2018 |
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Aug 20, 2018 22:26
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alg posted:The DCC core book has a whole section on OSR and never mentions 3rd edition at all, that I can recall. It's definitely not up front about basing it on 3rd edition, besides using the OGL. http://goodman-games.com/dungeon-crawl-classics-rpg/ It's pretty up front about it. DCC is also a good game, which I own most of the material for, and I'm glad it's doing great. I'm not arguing that the OSR community is full of Nazis btw, just that they get up their own asses about their vision or whatever they want to call bad mechanics. I was not aware that the Call of Cthulhu community had any Nazis. Most of the notable creators are pretty anti-Nazis too, especially the Delta Green crew.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:42
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Just look for comments on Harlem Unbound and you will find them, last time it was on Chaosium's official Facebook page especially.
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Aug 20, 2018 22:49
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there's nazis in pretty much every community, same as abusers. Accept this as a baseline and work from there.
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Aug 20, 2018 23:03
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alg posted:Just look for comments on Harlem Unbound and you will find them, last time it was on Chaosium's official Facebook page especially. Which one because there was only one post in the 2nd edition announcement from a guy whining about it and he was rebutted by posters? Do you have screen caps or something because I didn't hear anything about it and people were cheering at the Ennies for it? Someone at the Diana Jones Awards did tell Chris Spivey that he didn't deserve to be there, which was most likely an industry person. https://twitter.com/Darker_Hue/status/1025014272823312384
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Aug 20, 2018 23:04
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Vulpes Vulpes posted:Maybe not the place for it, but does anyone remember a bizarre OSR adventure someone F&F'd a while back? It was like this big sandbox thing and there was weird poo poo like a giant bug queen underground that would kill anyone who went there and time travel. I think there was a barrow or something that was the ultimate goal. I think it was LoftFP, but I can't really recall more than that. Sounds like LotFP’s The God That Crawls.
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Aug 20, 2018 23:18
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Vulpes Vulpes posted:Maybe not the place for it, but does anyone remember a bizarre OSR adventure someone F&F'd a while back? It was like this big sandbox thing and there was weird poo poo like a giant bug queen underground that would kill anyone who went there and time travel. I think there was a barrow or something that was the ultimate goal. I think it was LoftFP, but I can't really recall more than that.
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Aug 20, 2018 23:24
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Vulpes Vulpes posted:Maybe not the place for it, but does anyone remember a bizarre OSR adventure someone F&F'd a while back? It was like this big sandbox thing and there was weird poo poo like a giant bug queen underground that would kill anyone who went there and time travel. I think there was a barrow or something that was the ultimate goal. I think it was LoftFP, but I can't really recall more than that. That sounds like Carcosa to me. Halloween Jack wrote it up.
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Aug 20, 2018 23:36
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Is there a good write up on why WOTC did DND 3.5 vs just naming it 4? It wasn’t very clear to me at the time and I’d be hard pressed to remember it now. Where there any major changes then?
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Aug 21, 2018 00:19
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Nystral posted:Is there a good write up on why WOTC did DND 3.5 vs just naming it 4? It wasn’t very clear to me at the time and I’d be hard pressed to remember it now. Where there any major changes then? I don't think there is but it was still compatible with old 3.0 books and they didn't want to upset FLGS by making half their stock obsolete. I think the OGL probably came into it too.
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Aug 21, 2018 00:25
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Elephant Parade posted:You're thinking of Better Than Any Man, a LotFP module made for Free RPG Day. That's the one! Thanks!
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Aug 21, 2018 00:48
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Nystral posted:Is there a good write up on why WOTC did DND 3.5 vs just naming it 4? It wasn’t very clear to me at the time and I’d be hard pressed to remember it now. Where there any major changes then? 3.5 was basically a big patch on 3.0.
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Aug 21, 2018 00:59
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Nystral posted:Is there a good write up on why WOTC did DND 3.5 vs just naming it 4? It wasn’t very clear to me at the time and I’d be hard pressed to remember it now. Where there any major changes then? 3.5 was near identical mechanically to 3.0, it was just rejigging the math and removing a large number of holes so its not really a new version but more fixing up the hilariously badly designed and busted 3.0.
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Aug 21, 2018 01:25
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:I don't think there is but it was still compatible with old 3.0 books and they didn't want to upset FLGS by making half their stock obsolete. I think the OGL probably came into it too. Sadly, it didn't work out that way given how badly it burned d20 publishers and game stores. It didn't hurt D&D by any stretch but it definitely crashed the third-party craze.
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Aug 21, 2018 01:39
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DNA Cowboys posted:That sounds like Carcosa to me. Halloween Jack wrote it up. I don't think this is correct. But if it is you have just identified James Raggi plagiarizing an earlier lesser known work.
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Aug 21, 2018 01:55
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Sadly, it didn't work out that way given how badly it burned d20 publishers and game stores. It didn't hurt D&D by any stretch but it definitely crashed the third-party craze.
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Aug 21, 2018 02:28
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Evil Mastermind posted:I've said this before, but there are a few stores near me that still have full bookcases of third-party 3.x stuff that they're trying to sell at cover price. I can name one in my area that I'm pretty sure is still around, surviving on a dedicated audience that plays there and buys... something, I have to presume, even as the pizza boxes stack up in the back room? Having sold off my d20 collection (even stinkers like Power Class booklets or Way of the Samurai), it can sell, you just have to know what it's worth. Which usually isn't much, you're looking at 15%-40% of sticker price on third party books. There's very few books that are worth anything - Ravenloft d20 was the only one that exceeded sticker price because it was the last major edition of that setting. Munchkin d20 sold for a decent price, which was great because I bought then SJ games was dumping their stock. Other than that? Malhavoc and Green Ronin stuff sells better than most, but that's about it. Sunk cost fallacy hits game stores hard - I remember a local game store that wouldn't discount if he could help it at all, even as it killed his store once there weren't any more crazes to support it. My FLGS is amazingly draconian, keeping track of everything on the shelves and how long it's been there. If it's been too long, onto the discount table it goes, sometimes with the rest of a sluggish game line. There's always weird stories about game stores. I remember a comic / game store locally that smelled of cat piss that has an original copy of Arkham Horror tucked away behind the counter, crushed under the weight of books stacked atop it. A game collecting friend inquired "So, how much do you want for the copy of Arkham Horror?" "It's not for sale." "No, seriously, I've seen it sitting there for the past year, how much do you want?" "It's not for sale, kid." "$60? $80? (pulling out cash)" "GET OUT." The kind of business you can run when your family owns the entire building and you don't pay rent, I suppose.
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Aug 21, 2018 03:51
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:http://goodman-games.com/dungeon-crawl-classics-rpg/ It just says it uses the 3.5 ruleset. It also: - removed feats(original idea, done to get game closer to OSR) - capped the levels at 10(original idea, influenced by OSR) - introduced mighty deeds(original idea) - changed how every single aspect of the magic system works - changed character creation(to a b/x style) - changed XP(medium between forcing players to kill tons of monsters to level up but also removed Gold-For-XP, something JG personally hated) - changed monster stat blocks(Closer to b/x) - changed conditions(removed them, more like B/X) - changed CR(removed it, more like B/X) - removed encumbrance rules(less OSR and more "gently caress it nobody tracks this poo poo, just dont let people carry 500 swords out of a dungeon) - removed all but four of the classes(B/X) - ditched all of the extra races, can only play as human + class or Elf/Dwarf/Halfling as class, like B/X) - changed stats, removed Wisdom, changed charisma to personality, added LUK, dex to Agility, and CON to STA(Original ideas) - Introduced the Patron system (original) - there is no multiclassing (technically B/X, but Im pretty sure you could multiclass in ADnD1e, so thats..yeah) - Introduced spell duels and specific mechanics for them (original) - introduced luck die for thieves and halflings, plus the entire concept of burning luck (original) - introduced 7 more dice for use in the game - introduced the +1d and -1d mechanic etc etc etc The only really untouched thing is FORT REF WILL which was kept because JG doesn't like the original saves. Which...yeah. It's basically an entirely new system. Like you bought a kid a lego set for a castle and they build a mechwarrior. It might be all grey and the knight is a pilot, but that thing walks and shoots lasers. Instead of endlessly debating this though I feel like calling it "OSR-Adjacent" is the best choice. I mean hell, JG himself said that he's basically chosen to make DCC the way it is to appeal to adults who are flush with cash, go to conventions a lot, and are in the prime earning years of their lives!(Done with Mortgage, Kids are out of the house, want to relive glory days, looks a lot like B/X with some of the better ideas from later editions). Alien Rope Burn posted:I can name one in my area that I'm pretty sure is still around, surviving on a dedicated audience that plays there and buys... something, I have to presume, even as the pizza boxes stack up in the back room? Having sold off my d20 collection (even stinkers like Power Class booklets or Way of the Samurai), it can sell, you just have to know what it's worth. Which usually isn't much, you're looking at 15%-40% of sticker price on third party books. There's very few books that are worth anything - Ravenloft d20 was the only one that exceeded sticker price because it was the last major edition of that setting. Munchkin d20 sold for a decent price, which was great because I bought then SJ games was dumping their stock. Other than that? Malhavoc and Green Ronin stuff sells better than most, but that's about it. One of my local game store owners had a big loving snake inside his store and it frequently poo poo on the floor. Snake poo poo and piss smalls unbelievably bad and it never went away. He was also just...the worst at customer service. You'd call him up, he'd angrily sigh if you asked him to look something up and sometimes would just tell you he didn't want to walk around looking for stock. hosed up guy honestly. Got banned from running official magic games a couple years back for being a registered sex offender and someone reporting him to wizards. Ontario: It's a magical place.
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Aug 21, 2018 04:31
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Snakes can defecate???
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Aug 21, 2018 04:45
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Plutonis posted:Snakes can defecate??? Yes, all reptiles do, they're just cold blooded so it happens rarely.
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Aug 21, 2018 05:21
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Everybody Poops.
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Aug 21, 2018 05:24
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There's gecko poop all over my loving apartment, but it's also the most effective way to keep insects under control in Southeast Asia.
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Aug 21, 2018 05:32
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Bruceski posted:Everybody Poops. The REM b-side that doesn't get airplay.
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Aug 21, 2018 05:55
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As a rule excretions get more concentrated when there's less water available. Both forms in theory need water as a solvent, but there's a tradeoff between toxicity (especially from excess nitrogen) and energy requirements to process such things. So in the case of fish where lots of water is available, they spend almost no energy to dump out ammonia and other compounds because they have no need to retain that water and they're just releasing it into a larger body of water anyway. (In theory; apparently ammonia poisoning in fish tanks is not unheard of.) Way on the other end of the spectrum you have reptiles and birds whose evolutionary lineage assumes basically no consistent access to water beyond metabolism. Instead their bodies spend energy taking out all the water possible and processing the nitrogen down to uric acid.
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Aug 21, 2018 05:55
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:(Goodman Games announced the Corebook sold 500k copies, which is...pretty god drat good for an RPG that isn't Pathfinder or DnD) 500K sounds ridiculously, high, did you mean 50k? 500k would put it bigger than anything but the 5e and Pathfinder core books, and have brought GG over 8 million for that book alone. (Typical distribution model sees the publisher get 40% of the cover price)
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Aug 21, 2018 12:08
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JG did say 500k, but he was talking about the whole DCC line, not the core book only
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Aug 21, 2018 12:40
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Atlas Hugged posted:There's gecko poop all over my loving apartment, but it's also the most effective way to keep insects under control in Southeast Asia. The geckos themselves, or does reptile poo poo possess some kind of insect repellent properties?
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Aug 21, 2018 13:20
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alg posted:JG did say 500k, but he was talking about the whole DCC line, not the core book only That's a lot more realistic seeming. They still probably make decent bank off of it considering the production costs are donated.
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Aug 21, 2018 18:49
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grassy gnoll posted:The geckos themselves, or does reptile poo poo possess some kind of insect repellent properties? The geckos themselves. They'll just set themselves down by ant trail or stalk mosquitoes. They're pretty awesome. Loud as gently caress though.
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Aug 22, 2018 01:36
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DalaranJ posted:I don't think this is correct. But if it is you have just identified James Raggi plagiarizing an earlier lesser known work.
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Aug 22, 2018 16:25
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Warthur posted:I don't think it's plagiarising so much as republishing - Raggi put out a LotFP-branded edition of Carcosa after the original self-published one kicked up a stinkstorm in the OSR community. Carcosa is not written by Raggi. Better than Any Man was written by Raggi. Better than Any Man (or god that crawls which is probably the original content) was written after Carcosa.
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Aug 22, 2018 16:56
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I'd like to see the people here define what "plagiarism" is in terms of Tabletop RPGs, which is literally the genre of gaming where the main appeal is the ability to ape famous characters and properties.
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Aug 22, 2018 17:14
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:I'd like to see the people here define what "plagiarism" is in terms of Tabletop RPGs, which is literally the genre of gaming where the main appeal is the ability to ape famous characters and properties.
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Aug 22, 2018 17:26
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dwarf74 posted:Uh oh was someone mean about Raggi? No. They were ragging on Raggi. 
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Aug 22, 2018 17:31
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