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Lightning Knight posted:I find this really curious. They seem to be trying to thread this bizarre needle where the midterms are a referendum on Trump but in a vague sense. I suppose they just don’t want people to have any expectations of them, though charitably I imagine they’d argue that they don’t want Republican voters to galvanize around protecting Trump. If Trump gets impeached, they can't run against him in 2020. For them, "opposing Trump" means blocking his bills, not impeaching him.
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Aug 23, 2018 03:21
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Main Paineframe posted:If Trump gets impeached, they can't run against him in 2020. For them, "opposing Trump" means blocking his bills, not impeaching him. Also, there is a high likelihood the Democrats may not be able to keep its caucus together if impeachment happens. I know everyone expects the Republicans to break, but it very well may be a bunch of Blue-Dog(ish) Democrats refuse to go in for it in order to save their skins. Pelosi doesn't want to promise what she may not be able to deliver. Also, Trump, has somehow been able to keep a fair amount of polling on his side, and it really doesn't look like he lost much of his base if at all. He only won 46% of the popular vote in the first place so polling 42-43% coupled with some shy voters/undecided voters isn't that bad (shows where we are all going). Also, there is a question of who the establishment backs, because they certainly aren't going to back Bernie and I just still have a very hard time seeing Biden as actually competitive. I mean the second Biden actually campaigns everyone will suddenly remember who Biden actually is. So then you got the rest of the pack (my bet is still on Harris).
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Aug 23, 2018 14:02
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Ytlaya posted:So my dad was talking about how absurd it was that (apparently) someone on CNN or FOX was comparing Clinton's Lewinsky affair with Trump's investigation. But when you actually think about it, what Clinton did was actually kinda morally worse than the specific things Trump is being accused of with regards to collusion with Russia (though Trump is of course guilty of the same sort of stuff as Clinton with regards to being a sex pest, even if it's not the focus of the investigation). I think the more damning parallel with Trump is B. Clinton paying off Paula Jones to make her go away (while he was embroiled in the Lewinsky scandal).
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Aug 23, 2018 16:01
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https://twitter.com/politico/status/1032658855396888577?s=21 I thought the whole point of defending red state Dems is that they vote with us when it matters.
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Aug 23, 2018 17:12
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Lightning Knight posted:I find this really curious. They seem to be trying to thread this bizarre needle where the midterms are a referendum on Trump but in a vague sense. I suppose they just don’t want people to have any expectations of them, though charitably I imagine they’d argue that they don’t want Republican voters to galvanize around protecting Trump. Trump has the HIGHEST support of Republicans of ANY GOP president in modern history. It is a dangerous illusion to believe that moderating positions will flip Trump supporters. What it will do is suppress Democrat turnout. Branding: You have to stand for more than just “we’re not as bad as they are.”
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Aug 23, 2018 17:15
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/politico/status/1032658855396888577?s=21 Manchin and Tester killed DREAM despite Republicans crossing the aisle to vote for cloture. The point of defending red state Dems is that they fundraise for the party, not because they vote for the party's nominal goals.
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Aug 23, 2018 18:04
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VitalSigns posted:Manchin and Tester killed DREAM despite Republicans crossing the aisle to vote for cloture. Also because putting the Dems in the majority gives all the Dem leadership better and more prestigious positions, even if they can't actually pass a bill. Schumer gets to be Majority Leader, Dems get to head up all the committees, and so on.
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Aug 23, 2018 18:26
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theCalamity posted:I thought the whole point of defending red state Dems is that they vote with us when it matters. This is the argument when there's no contentious issue up for debate in Congress. When there is and the red state Dems vote with the Republican, the argument becomes we need those Dems in Congress because they help the party get the majority, which lets the Dems control committees/scheduling/technocratic matters. I think there's some reasonableness to that line of thought, but then the problem become if/when the Dems have control, you have the succ dems blocking good legislation. It's the parable of the scorpion and the frog. Letting lovely red state Dems in is probably a lot worse for the party overall than what's obvious in the good legislation they block by depressing the Dems voting base overall.
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Aug 23, 2018 18:45
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Democrats in 2018 should be running on economics and healthcare.
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Aug 23, 2018 18:47
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VideoGameVet posted:Trump has the HIGHEST support of Republicans of ANY GOP president in modern history. This is a slightly misleading statistic because there has been a drop in people willing to identify as Republican. His base loves him but his base is relatively small compared to Reagan or Bush. Other Republican presidents had more moderate support.
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Aug 23, 2018 18:52
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Euphoriaphone posted:This is the argument when there's no contentious issue up for debate in Congress. When there is and the red state Dems vote with the Republican, the argument becomes we need those Dems in Congress because they help the party get the majority, which lets the Dems control committees/scheduling/technocratic matters. I think there's some reasonableness to that line of thought, but then the problem become if/when the Dems have control, you have the succ dems blocking good legislation. And then they’ll say that the Dems need a supermajority in order to bypass those red state Dems.., so basically never
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Aug 23, 2018 18:52
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VideoGameVet posted:Trump has the HIGHEST support of Republicans of ANY GOP president in modern history. Oh I wasn’t disagreeing with this notion. I’m just trying to work out what their logic is, on the assumption it’s more complicated than basic cynicism.
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Aug 23, 2018 18:54
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Euphoriaphone posted:the problem become if/when the Dems have control, you have the succ dems blocking good legislation. This is actually a feature, not a problem, when the donors are paying you to find an excuse to block good legislation.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:15
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theCalamity posted:And then they’ll say that the Dems need a supermajority in order to bypass those red state Dems.., so basically never Then they endorse and campaign for conservative Dems in blue states, even if those conservatives lost primaries and are running a sore loser third-party campaign. So we actually need 100 Dem Senators to pass anything over the objections of red state Dems and conservative blue state Dems installed by the party, so don't ask us to do anything except collect corporate money until then you guys.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:19
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Trabisnikof posted:Democrats in 2018 should be running on economics and healthcare. The last thing Dems want to run on are economics. Remember Obama and the new normal being pushed as to the economy never getting better (indeed it never did get better under Obama et al). Trump has shown the naysayers that the American economy has lots of room for growth. So I guess if you want to go back to inept people running the country, then vote for a Obama clone....just don't complain when you can't find a job.
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Aug 23, 2018 21:03
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Lapua posted:The last thing Dems want to run on are economics. Remember Obama and the new normal being pushed as to the economy never getting better (indeed it never did get better under Obama et al). Trump has shown the naysayers that the American economy has lots of room for growth. So I guess if you want to go back to inept people running the country, then vote for a Obama clone....just don't complain when you can't find a job. The gently caress is this?
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Aug 23, 2018 21:18
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This is a slightly misleading statistic because there has been a drop in people willing to identify as Republican. His base loves him but his base is relatively small compared to Reagan or Bush. Other Republican presidents had more moderate support. My point is that trying to flip Trumpanzees by moderating positions (like rejecting Medicare For All) is a futile and stupid exercise.
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Aug 23, 2018 21:19
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Lapua posted:Trump has shown the naysayers that the American economy has lots of room for growth Absolutely, if you're in the top 1% and own capital then the sky's the limit! Trump and his policies will absolutely help you extract as much value as possible from everyone lower on the economic ladder.
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Aug 23, 2018 21:24
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with tidings from cspam https://twitter.com/cascamike/status/1032628626531987458
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Aug 23, 2018 21:42
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Who's the 15.5% of Democrats who wouldn't support a policy of medicare for all?
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Aug 23, 2018 22:02
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insurance industry employees, doctors, lib 1%ers, i dunno
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Aug 23, 2018 22:08
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PT6A posted:Who's the 15.5% of Democrats who wouldn't support a policy of medicare for all? there's about 10% of self-described democrats who are actually racist chuds who have embraced the lost cause mentality and never actually vote democratic but would if the dixiecrats returned to power
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Aug 23, 2018 22:14
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PT6A posted:Who's the 15.5% of Democrats who wouldn't support a policy of medicare for all? Remember that by many metrics, around 35% of current Dems are just functionally GOP who are ok with gay marriage.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:22
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Euphoriaphone posted:The gently caress is this? The gently caress you don't understand?
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Aug 23, 2018 22:23
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Of all those Dems who support universal health care, how many understand that America can't afford it. 22 trillion in debt, Social security going bust in 30 years, tell me where does the money come from to fund this?
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Aug 23, 2018 22:27
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Lapua posted:Of all those Dems who support universal health care, how many understand that America can't afford it. 22 trillion in debt, Social security going bust in 30 years, tell me where does the money come from to fund this? Oh so you're an actual idiot, then. (the answer is: the rich) (also we're going to spend the money on healthcare anyway, just poor people will die so that rich people can get charged more for their boutique concierge medical treatments and health insurance CEOs can make millions off the margin - a Koch-funded study that was commissioned to poo poo on universal health care said that M4A will save 2 trillion over 10 years. Also it's done in over a dozen other countries.) (also social security isn't going to "go bust") (also MMT tells you that sovereign currency means that debt doesn't particularly matter) (also read a book before you run your fool mouth here) Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 22:28
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I feel kind of vicariously embarassed for Lapua because they are obviously out of their depth here.Trabisnikof posted:there's about 10% of self-described democrats who are actually racist chuds who have embraced the lost cause mentality and never actually vote democratic but would if the dixiecrats returned to power Don't forget the "medicare for all reminds them of bernie sanders, which causes great anger" folks. They probably make up like 5% or so of Democratic voters.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:31
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LMAO I just realized he thinks this is a "Democrats bad" from the *right*. Oh my dear sweet boy. this is the socialists and commies thread.....buhahahahhahaha
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Aug 23, 2018 22:43
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Lapua posted:Of all those Dems who support universal health care, how many understand that America can't afford it. 22 trillion in debt, Social security going bust in 30 years, tell me where does the money come from to fund this? 
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Aug 23, 2018 22:43
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Lapua posted:Of all those Dems who support universal health care, how many understand that America can't afford it. 22 trillion in debt, Social security going bust in 30 years, tell me where does the money come from to fund this? I guess you didn't hear that the Koch brothers set out to prove exactly this, and ended up admitting that no matter how much they sandbagged UHC by inflating costs and rationalizing away as much savings as possible they still found it would save the country money, you should check it out. PT6A posted:Who's the 15.5% of Democrats who wouldn't support a policy of medicare for all? Well someone keeps voting for succ dems in primaries, voter suppression and rigging only goes so far.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:44
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Lapua posted:Of all those Dems who support universal health care, how many understand that America can't afford it. 22 trillion in debt, Social security going bust in 30 years, tell me where does the money come from to fund this? I haven't seen the "social security going bust in x decades" argument in years, thanks for the nostalgia.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:59
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PT6A posted:Who's the 15.5% of Democrats who wouldn't support a policy of medicare for all? The ones in office
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Aug 23, 2018 23:05
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Uncle Wemus posted:The ones in office I assumed they'd say they supported it, and then not actually do anything about it out of cowardice. Surely they wouldn't admit to not supporting it outright, no?
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Aug 23, 2018 23:10
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Lapua posted:Of all those Dems who support universal health care, how many understand that America can't afford it. 22 trillion in debt, Social security going bust in 30 years, tell me where does the money come from to fund this? if you would truly like to know more, i recommend the work of matt bruenig who has done a lot of work on this subject
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Aug 23, 2018 23:10
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Lapua posted:Of all those Dems who support universal health care, how many understand that America can't afford it. 22 trillion in debt, Social security going bust in 30 years, tell me where does the money come from to fund this? See this handy chart
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Aug 23, 2018 23:23
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:LMAO I just realized he thinks this is a "Democrats bad" from the *right*. Oh my dear sweet boy. this is the socialists and commies thread.....buhahahahhahaha looool poor kid. if it would help we could talk about why the Clintons and Obama deserve to be in jail?
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Aug 23, 2018 23:26
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PT6A posted:Who's the 15.5% of Democrats who wouldn't support a policy of medicare for all? Uncle Wemus posted:The ones in office Ziiing (EDIT since the thread is hypersensitive:  )The real answer is probably a combination of "don't gently caress with medicare, any changes to the program are bad because I'm 97 years old and depend on it", "Medicare for All is a collection of insufficient policy programs and only true single payer now is even worth discussing," "I claim to be a Democrat but in practice I always vote Republican," etc. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Aug 24, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 23:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Ziiing Yeah, it's not like our last Democratic president intentionally undermined the public option after campaigning for it and the 2016 Democratic nominee said that M4A would "never happen." The current leaders of the Dems in the House and Senate are totally down with M4A too. Nancy and Chuck can't shut up about it. Totally unreasonable for folks in this thread to question the intentions of Democratic politicians on health care. B B fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 23:42
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PT6A posted:Who's the 15.5% of Democrats who wouldn't support a policy of medicare for all?
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Aug 23, 2018 23:57
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B B posted:
Y'all are hyper-defensive sometimes, I didn't say it wasn't But I doubt elected politicians made up 15% of poll respondents
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Aug 24, 2018 00:13
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